When people die...

[blhowes]

Yesterday, I attended the funeral of my ex-pastor's wife. She had battled cancer for the last year and a half or so of her life, the suffering at the end was pretty intense. Her husband shared during the memorial service how the family prayed, and begged God, at the end to please take her so that the suffering would end. As he shared, in God's timing he did just that.

I got to thinking about life and death, and for her what it must have been like "finishing the race" and going from the intense suffering to whatever happened next. I was thinking about this stuff mostly on the way to the funeral, rejoicing that her suffering was over and that there are only good times ahead for her, and trying to picture in my mind's eye what it must have been like to transition from such suffering to whatever she experienced next, which was ___?

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After people die, the judgment follows. Is that the next thing people are aware of after they die...

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Php 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

...or, when people die, are they (the elect) immediately brought into the presence of the Lord?

Do you think people who have died can see or have any perception of what's going on back here in the world they just left?

 

[blhowes]

Oh yeah, it was indeed a blessing to attend the memorial service and to be reacquainted with some friends we hadn't seen for years. It was especially a blessing to talk with one of the girls who had been in my college and career class. I found out that her husband's mom had died around 4 years ago. For years, his mom went to church, sat under the preaching of the gospel, and yet never got saved. For years we prayed for her salvation. I found out that her other son's pastor had visited her while she was on her death bed and that she had gotten saved!

 

[Raj]

"Do you think people who have died can see or have any perception of what's going on back here in the world they just left?"



A rich man remebered his brothers and wanted them to esacape the hell but couldn't help apart from sympathy.

Luke 16: 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them

 

[blhowes]

A rich man remembered his brothers and wanted them to escape hell but couldn't help apart from sympathy.

Luke 16: 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them

Raj,
Thank-you for your response.

That's an interesting passage about the afterlife. I wonder how much of it is to be taken literally.

 

[Iconoclast]

BL

A rich man remembered his brothers and wanted them to escape hell but couldn't help apart from sympathy.

Luke 16: 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them

Raj,
Thank-you for your response.

That's an interesting passage about the afterlife. I wonder how much of it is to be taken literally.

BL,
If you do not think the teaching is literal,are you saying that what was taught would not be true? Do you think there is not a great gulf fixed between us and them?
I never considered that anything here would not be so. It seems to be clear. Even saying that it was just a teaching device why would the teaching fail to translate into reality?

 

[Bygracealone]

Oh yeah, it was indeed a blessing to attend the memorial service and to be reacquainted with some friends we hadn't seen for years. It was especially a blessing to talk with one of the girls who had been in my college and career class. I found out that her husband's mom had died around 4 years ago. For years, his mom went to church, sat under the preaching of the gospel, and yet never got saved. For years we prayed for her salvation. I found out that her other son's pastor had visited her while she was on her death bed and that she had gotten saved!

Concerning last minute/death-bed conversions, there's a quote by J.C. Ryle that often comes to mind. It goes something like this:

There was one thief on the cross, that we should not despair, but only one that none should presume...

I rejoice with you in the good news about this woman's conversion. The Lord is full of mercy, praise be to Him!

 

[A5pointer]

Some scholars caution against understanding the parable to teach specifics of the after life. The main point is said to be an indictment against the rich who neglect and opress the poor.

 

[SRoper]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure I can rejoice in someone's death, even if it means an end to suffering. Is not death the most disordered state a human person can be in? Something terribly violent happens to a person at death, something far worse than any suffering. I think we, the living, are wrongly relieved when someone dies because we don't have to deal with it anymore.

 

[blhowes]

BL,
If you do not think the teaching is literal,are you saying that what was taught would not be true?

No, Jesus taught it, its true.

Do you think there is not a great gulf fixed between us and them?

Yes.

I never considered that anything here would not be so. It seems to be clear. Even saying that it was just a teaching device why would the teaching fail to translate into reality?

I guess when I say literal, I mean is that an exact representation of what is seen, as if someone were to take a video of the event. Taken literally, when we die, our destination is in Abraham's bosom. As far as I know, that's the only place that talks about the destination of the believer being Abraham's bosom. Does that passage teach that all who have died in Christ are literally in Abraham's bosom now, or does Abraham's bosom represent something else?

 

[A5pointer]

BL,
If you do not think the teaching is literal,are you saying that what was taught would not be true?

No, Jesus taught it, its true.

Do you think there is not a great gulf fixed between us and them?

Yes.

I never considered that anything here would not be so. It seems to be clear. Even saying that it was just a teaching device why would the teaching fail to translate into reality?

I guess when I say literal, I mean is that an exact representation of what is seen, as if someone were to take a video of the event. Taken literally, when we die, our destination is in Abraham's bosom. As far as I know, that's the only place that talks about the destination of the believer being Abraham's bosom. Does that passage teach that all who have died in Christ are literally in Abraham's bosom now, or does Abraham's bosom represent something else?

This does not seem to fit with parable genre does it?

 

[blhowes]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure I can rejoice in someone's death, even if it means an end to suffering. Is not death the most disordered state a human person can be in? Something terribly violent happens to a person at death, something far worse than any suffering. I think we, the living, are wrongly relieved when someone dies because we don't have to deal with it anymore.

Are you saying that, after a saint goes through suffering and they breath their last breath, that there's far worse suffering they experience after that?

 

[blhowes]

This does not seem to fit with parable genre does it?

If its a parable, no. But some have pointed out that its not a parable, because there are actual names given, which is different from other parables. Does mentioning of specific names in a passage have any bearing as to whether or not something is a parable?

 

[A5pointer]

This does not seem to fit with parable genre does it?

If its a parable, no. But some have pointed out that its not a parable, because there are actual names given, which is different from other parables. Does mentioning of specific names in a passage have any bearing as to whether or not something is a parable?

Good question, I am not well versed this one...wait and see

 

[Bygracealone]

I won't be overly dogmatic about it, but I will say that the evidence overwhelmingly supports the view that this passage is to be interpreted as a parable. The reasons are as follows:

1. First and foremost, the context and the setting is the same as that of the previous parables beginning back in chapter 15. We must recall the fact that in chapter 15 Jesus began responding to the Pharisees with various parables. Within these parables, He exposed the Pharisees’ lack of concern for others in chapter 15 and their covetousness or sinful use of wealth in chapter 16. So mercilessness and covetousness were their sins and Jesus spoke out against both of these sins in the previous parables. Then, once we come to verses 19-31, we find something of a climax in that both of these sins are dealt with in a single parable. In this parable, we learn that there was a rich man who loved money, lived in luxury, thought that his being a descendant of Abraham was all he needed for salvation, and lastly, he was merciless to a homeless and hungry fellow Jew who lived at the entrance of his estate.

2. Secondly, nowhere else in Scripture are we taught that people in Hell are able to see or communicate with people in Heaven. This passage is the only one like it and it would be very dangerous to build a doctrine on a passage that is at the very least questionable with regard to whether it should be interpreted literally or not.

3. Thirdly, the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham are spoken of as though they have bodies. The rich man is said to have looked up from Hell with his eyes and seen Abraham, then he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to apply it to his tongue. Well, we know that the souls of people who die are without bodies until the resurrection. This passage is using figurative language that is very much in line with what we would expect to be used in a parable.

4. Fourthly and finally, Abraham is not the primary figure of Heaven or Hell. The other pictures that are given to us of Heaven are centered around God in His glorious splendor. And in Hell, if the reprobate can cry out at all, they won’t be crying out to Abraham, they will be calling out to God for mercy. You see, Abraham is no more of a child of God than you and I. Yes, he is the father of the faith and we are his children, but that is only in a figurative sense. If we have faith, we are ultimately children of God. Abraham, just like you and I, are all equally children of God.

 

[A5pointer]

Thanks, I remember Bock using a similair argument. I am buying it(for now)

 

[Bygracealone]

You're very welcome brother.

 

[SRoper]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure I can rejoice in someone's death, even if it means an end to suffering. Is not death the most disordered state a human person can be in? Something terribly violent happens to a person at death, something far worse than any suffering. I think we, the living, are wrongly relieved when someone dies because we don't have to deal with it anymore.

Are you saying that, after a saint goes through suffering and they breath their last breath, that there's far worse suffering they experience after that?

I'm saying that what happens at death, which is traditionally described as the separation of body and soul, is worse than suffering because in suffering body and soul are still joined. It's better to live poorly than to die.

 

[Bygracealone]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure I can rejoice in someone's death, even if it means an end to suffering. Is not death the most disordered state a human person can be in? Something terribly violent happens to a person at death, something far worse than any suffering. I think we, the living, are wrongly relieved when someone dies because we don't have to deal with it anymore.

Scott, I agree that we should never rejoice in death itself. Death is part of the curse and nothing to rejoice about. Death is the separation of that which was not intended to be separated (body and soul). That said, we do have passages that give us reason to rejoice for the saints when they leave this life.

Psalm 116:15 15 Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His saints.

Philippians 1:21-23 to live is Christ, and to die is gain … to depart and be with Christ, is far better.

Revelation 7:13-17 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."


Revelation 21:4 4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

Your brother in Christ our Lord,

Steve

 

[DMcFadden]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure I can rejoice in someone's death, even if it means an end to suffering. Is not death the most disordered state a human person can be in? Something terribly violent happens to a person at death, something far worse than any suffering. I think we, the living, are wrongly relieved when someone dies because we don't have to deal with it anymore.

Are you saying that, after a saint goes through suffering and they breath their last breath, that there's far worse suffering they experience after that?

I'm saying that what happens at death, which is traditionally described as the separation of body and soul, is worse than suffering because in suffering body and soul are still joined. It's better to live poorly than to die.

To be found without a unity of body and soul would indeed be a horrifing prospect (cf. 2 Cor 5). However, to leave this world of disordered sinfulness and to be present with the Lord will be sweet indeed.

Yesterday, my son-in-law was at the bedside of his mom who died during the afternoon of cancer at age 57. She had been battling it for 6 years with rermissions here and there. At my daughter's wedding 13 months ago, she wore a scarf to cover her chemo bald head. Last year at this time she and her husband traveled to Israel and Jordan with a group I led. They had a wonderful time.

Her final weeks were filled with discomfort, indignity, and no small measure of pain. Their pastor was at the bedside planning her memorial service when her breathing changed. The husband, two sons, and daughter joined with the pastor in singing hymns, praying, and touching Janet. They were with her as she took her last breath.

I do not believe that our momentary afflictions, even the final crossing, can be compared to the glory that awaits us who are the elect of the Lord.

 

[Barnpreacher]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm not sure I can rejoice in someone's death, even if it means an end to suffering. Is not death the most disordered state a human person can be in? Something terribly violent happens to a person at death, something far worse than any suffering. I think we, the living, are wrongly relieved when someone dies because we don't have to deal with it anymore.

Acts 7:55-60, "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

It didn't seem like a terribly violent thing happened to Stephen here (not talking about his type of death, but rather the departing of his soul). Stephen's departing from this world seemed almost a sweet thing.

 

[Raj]

"Stephen's departing from this world seemed almost a sweet thing."

Very much comforting words. thankyou.

 

[SRoper]

I withdraw my previous comments in light of the Scriptural evidence. I can't say I fully understand why Scripture speaks in this way. I especially have trouble reconciling it with condemnation of euthanasia. If death can be a higher good than a life of suffering it seems that euthanasia is an act of love. I can't see how to escape this undesirable conclusion.

 

[Bygracealone]

I withdraw my previous comments in light of the Scriptural evidence. I can't say I fully understand why Scripture speaks in this way. I especially have trouble reconciling it with condemnation of euthanasia. If death can be a higher good than a life of suffering it seems that euthanasia is an act of love. I can't see how to escape this undesirable conclusion.

Hi Scott, I very much appreciate your honest assessment of what the Scriptures teach on this subject.

For what it's worth, the way I reconcile the two is that euthanasia is the taking of life, which is equivalent to murder and therefore a violation of the Moral Law. While it would be true that a believer would go to a better place, it's never our prerogative to take such matters into our own hands. The Lord will take His saints to be with Him in His perfect timing. For us to euthanize people with the thought of being merciful would be for us to wrongly claim that we are more merciful than our God of mercy...

 

[moral necessity]

Do you think people who have died can see or have any perception of what's going on back here in the world they just left?

No, I tend to think that the dead are in a state of rest or sleep. Sort of like Samuel. David speaks of it in these terms, as did Job, as well as Jesus.

 

[blhowes]

Do you think people who have died can see or have any perception of what's going on back here in the world they just left?

No, I tend to think that the dead are in a state of rest or sleep. Sort of like Samuel. David speaks of it in these terms, as did Job, as well as Jesus.

Is it your view that they will awake when judgment day comes?

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

For what it's worth, here is a famous treatise by John Calvin on 'soul-sleep,' known as Psychopannychia or, A Refutation of the Error Entertained by Some Unskilful Persons, Who Ignorantly Imagine That in the Interval Between Death and Judgment the Soul Sleeps. Together With an Explanation of the Condition and Life of the Soul After This Present Life.

Also worth reading is Thomas Goodwin, An Immediate State of Glory for the Spirits of Just Men, Upon Dissolution, Demonstrated, in his Works, Vol. 12.

 

[moral necessity]

No, I tend to think that the dead are in a state of rest or sleep. Sort of like Samuel. David speaks of it in these terms, as did Job, as well as Jesus.

You asked, "Is it your view that they will awake when judgment day comes?"[/QUOTE]

Really, I can't say that I emphatically hold to this position, for I haven't thought of it via study for 10 years or so. Up until now, I tended to lean in that direction, that Christ would bring them with him and raise their bodies to life when he returned, having not read much that convinced me otherwise.

 

[moral necessity]

For what it's worth, here is a famous treatise by John Calvin on 'soul-sleep,' known as Psychopannychia or, A Refutation of the Error Entertained by Some Unskilful Persons, Who Ignorantly Imagine That in the Interval Between Death and Judgment the Soul Sleeps. Together With an Explanation of the Condition and Life of the Soul After This Present Life.

Also worth reading is Thomas Goodwin, An Immediate State of Glory for the Spirits of Just Men, Upon Dissolution, Demonstrated, in his Works, Vol. 12.

Thanks, Andrew!

I look forward to reading this to filter my thinking through.