The Tithe

[pastorway]

Okay guys and gals.....let's look at this and see what is being missed.

No one is saying "Don't Give."

The principles given to us in the New Testament that deal with giving, as have been expressed several times, include the following:

1. Attitude - we must give cheerfully. In order to give with the right attitude we must be giving!

2. Systematic - routine, a habit of giving.

3. Sacrificial - To give sacrificially you must also be giving, giving until it hurts! Now at times, a sacrificial gift may not be 10%, at other times it will be more that 10%.

4. Proportional - this is where we really define things. Giving is to be proportional. Do we give other things more than we give God? Or is our giving in proportion to what we have?

All of these suppose that we are consistently giving. What is being missed is the fact that the tithe is not a requirement in the NT Church. We are not told give 10% no matter what or else. We are told to give cheerfully, systematically, sacrificially, and proportionally. So I would think that those of us arguing [i:0383bd4aa3]against[/i:0383bd4aa3] the tithe are actually arguing for MORE giving than what the laws of Israel required.

As for 1 Cor 9, Paul says God commands that those who preach the gospel live by the gospel. He does not say then that the church is required to give 10% to support the pastor. He is saying that the church, in its giving as he has laid it out, should give to support the ministry of the gospel. No percentage. He is giving instructions for how to use what has been and wil be given. In other words, he says that while he has a right to be supported by the church, he is not using that right! But for other ministers that do use the right, then the church should know that part of what they doi give to the Lord should support the ministers in their church.

Again, it is not a percentage. And no one is saying don't give. What we are saying is that the Old Testament tithe is not God's plan for giving in the church. He has not decreed a percentage by law.

And if He did, we would all be bringing 10% of our garden vegetables, etc etc to church every week. It is not just about money. 2 Cor in clear that we cannot rightly give anything to God until we have first given ourselves completely to Him! (2 Cor 8:5)

It is a matter of generosity, not obligation!

Second Corinthians 8 and 9 give us some of the most detailed instructions concernging giving from the NT, and Paul never uses the word tithe or refers to a percentage.

Phillip

 

[staythecourse]

I agree that it truly is an attitude of the heart and a decision of the will to give to the Lord sacrificially. Well put. He is looking for the whole person and not just the moneybag. That's an example of our heart-set toward Him and His work.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Phillip writes:
'And if He did, we would all be bringing 10% of our garden vegetables, etc etc to church every week. It is not just about money.'

Again I ask, was the tithe ever monetary?

 

[dswatts]

Well put, Pastorway.

Scott: In answer to your question: No, I don't believe it was 'monetary' as we consider the notion, and I think the context of Malachi 3 bears that out. That said, of course, this was a barter system of economics, so crops and animals were the 'currency' of the day, so in that sense, it was monetary. How's that for a yes and no answer?

Grace,
Dwayne

 

[kceaster]

Scott...

Deut 14:24-25 "But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses."

In Christ,

KC

 

[ChristianTrader]

[quote:4b1b30a7fa][i:4b1b30a7fa]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:4b1b30a7fa]
Okay guys and gals.....let's look at this and see what is being missed.

No one is saying "Don't Give."

The principles given to us in the New Testament that deal with giving, as have been expressed several times, include the following:

1. Attitude - we must give cheerfully. In order to give with the right attitude we must be giving!

2. Systematic - routine, a habit of giving.

3. Sacrificial - To give sacrificially you must also be giving, giving until it hurts! Now at times, a sacrificial gift may not be 10%, at other times it will be more that 10%.

4. Proportional - this is where we really define things. Giving is to be proportional. Do we give other things more than we give God? Or is our giving in proportion to what we have?

[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

I really do not have a problem with what is said her, the only question is if one is justified in denying a "carryover" of tithes from the old covenant to the new one.

[quote:4b1b30a7fa]

All of these suppose that we are consistently giving. What is being missed is the fact that the tithe is not a requirement in the NT Church. We are not told give 10% no matter what or else. We are told to give cheerfully, systematically, sacrificially, and proportionally. So I would think that those of us arguing [i:4b1b30a7fa]against[/i:4b1b30a7fa] the tithe are actually arguing for MORE giving than what the laws of Israel required.
[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

The people who are advocating tithing being for today are not arguing against people giving more than 10% to various working of the Kingdom. They are just saying that 10% is a baseline, or phrased differently, if one is led to give less than 10% then one is being led astray. It also looks like you are using a weird dispensational hermanutic where if something is not explicitly repeated then it is no longer binding. I do not think this view can be held in view of the entire new testament and how Paul and various others regularly wrote in ways unexplainable outside of assume various part of the Old Testament.

However I addressed 1 Cor 9 because I do not believe that one can avoid its force regardless of what hermanutic one uses.

[quote:4b1b30a7fa]
As for 1 Cor 9, Paul says God commands that those who preach the gospel live by the gospel. He does not say then that the church is required to give 10% to support the pastor. He is saying that the church, in its giving as he has laid it out, should give to support the ministry of the gospel. No percentage. He is giving instructions for how to use what has been and wil be given. In other words, he says that while he has a right to be supported by the church, he is not using that right! But for other ministers that do use the right, then the church should know that part of what they doi give to the Lord should support the ministers in their church.
[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

Paul does not just command that those who preach the Gospel to live by the gospel, he justifies it by refering to the levitical priesthood and how things operated under it. He then says in v. 14, that in the same way, those who preach the gospel were to live by the gospel. When he said the same way, how can it switch from being a requirement of 10% to a voluntary any amount?


[quote:4b1b30a7fa]
Again, it is not a percentage. And no one is saying don't give. What we are saying is that the Old Testament tithe is not God's plan for giving in the church. He has not decreed a percentage by law.
[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

He does not need to decree a percentage because the percentage carries over from previously.

[quote:4b1b30a7fa]
And if He did, we would all be bringing 10% of our garden vegetables, etc etc to church every week. It is not just about money. 2 Cor in clear that we cannot rightly give anything to God until we have first given ourselves completely to Him! (2 Cor 8:5)
[/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

I actually would not have a problem with this. However farmers would not be tithing every week because, they dont get paid every week (or finish growing something every week) do they?

And who said anything about not giving fully of ourselves to God? The issue is can you rightfully say that you are giving of yourself fully and reject tithing?

[quote:4b1b30a7fa]
It is a matter of generosity, not obligation!

Second Corinthians 8 and 9 give us some of the most detailed instructions concernging giving from the NT, and Paul never uses the word tithe or refers to a percentage.

Phillip [/quote:4b1b30a7fa]

I think that when Paul refers to his right to payment being based in the Levitical right to the tithe, and then says in the same way, that ministers are to live by the Gospel, one has to close their eyes not to see a 10% requirement.

Hermonta

 

[kceaster]

All...

I think it is offensive to the Scriptures to look at this only from the NT perspective. Thus, Phillip's explanation starts out. I do not disagree with much of what you say, Phillip. But you seem to be advocating a view that is lax because you do not want to be legalistic. However, we don't want to fall into the other ditch, antinomian.

There is nothing in Scripture that speaks against the tithe nor show that it is no longer in effect as a principle.

I will write no more about this, but will leave you all with one last comment. Give what you think is right and ask God for more grace so that you may give more. Giving your offering does not mean that God will bless you with more. It is not a magic formula. But if you ask God for more, yet you are not generous in your giving, would you answer your prayer? I don't believe God will.

In Christ,

KC

 

[Saiph]

Tithe has always been, and always will be 100%.

Pray without ceasing.

Whatever you do in thought word or deed, do it as unto the Lord.

We are stewards of HIS resources.

Nothing is ours.

 

[dkicklig]

I can't add much more to what's already been said but here 's my :wr50:

1. Tithing, offering, giving whatever we call it is a matter of the heart. If you can't give of a joyful heart it is better not to give at all. "Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Cor 9:7) "

2. We give of the fruit of our labour, which for all of us is probably cash money. Now if you are a farmer who lives off your harvest maybe you should give a portion of those fruits to the church for the welfare of the covenant community.

 

[dswatts]

[b:9e92c56b07]Mark[/b:9e92c56b07] :thumbup:

I think you are right on, brother.

I'm sure that makes you feel good!
:bigsmile:

Grace,
Dwayne:saint:

 

[Scott Bushey]

[quote:11eee5a972][i:11eee5a972]Originally posted by dswatts[/i:11eee5a972]
Well put, Pastorway.

Scott: In answer to your question: No, I don't believe it was 'monetary' as we consider the notion, and I think the context of Malachi 3 bears that out. That said, of course, this was a barter system of economics, so crops and animals were the 'currency' of the day, so in that sense, it was monetary. How's that for a yes and no answer?
Grace,
Dwayne [/quote:11eee5a972]

Dwayne,
Thats not necessarily true. Israel had money to exchange...........In fact, the Jew who had to travel a long distance, more than a days journey was told to sell their wares and exchange it for monetary units and upon arriving at Jerusalem, exchange it back again to product.

 

[Scott Bushey]

[quote:3cfd732816][i:3cfd732816]Originally posted by kceaster[/i:3cfd732816]
Deut 14:24-25 "But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses."

In Christ,

KC [/quote:3cfd732816]

Kev,
Here is the passage in context:

Deu 14:22 Tithing you shall tithe all the increase of your seed that the field yields year by year.
Deu 14:23 And you shall eat before Jehovah your God in the place which He shall choose to cause His name to dwell there, the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstlings of your herd and of your flock; that you may learn to fear Jehovah your God all your days.
Deu 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you cannot carry it, because the place is too far from you which Jehovah your God shall choose to set His name there, when Jehovah your God shall bless you;
Deu 14:25 Then you shall give it for silver, and bind up the silver in your hand. And you shall go to the place which Jehovah your God shall choose.
Deu 14:26 And you shall pay the silver for whatever your soul desires, [b:3cfd732816]for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for fermented drink, or for whatever your soul desires. [/b:3cfd732816]And you shall eat there before Jehovah your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.
Deu 14:27 And you shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no portion nor inheritance with you.
Deu 14:28 At the end of three years, even the same year, you shall bring forth all the tithe of your increase, and shall lay it up within your gates.
Deu 14:29 And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the alien, and the fatherless, and the widow who are within your gates shall come and shall eat and be satisfied; so that Jehovah your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.


The moneys were to be exchanged back to product........

 

[kceaster]

Scott...

Good point.

However, how are we to take what Abraham gave to Melchizidek? Assuming he had money, would he withhold from him what he had? Not to mention that the offering box used for alms and offerings in Jesus day would not have held doves and lambs.

I think there is latitude for exchanging money. If they didn't have an animal for a tithe, they would certainly have to buy one.

In Christ,

KC

 

[Scott Bushey]

Happy Lords day,


A recent discussion on the Puritan Board has prompted me to reexamine the present day emphasis on tithing.

It seems obvious to me that the one of the beginning treatments must be to address different types of biblical giving. I see in early writings that there was 'offerings'.

Genesis 4:3-5 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.

4503 hx'n>mi minchah {min-khaw'}
Meaning: 1) gift, tribute, offering, present, oblation, sacrifice, meat offering 1a) gift, present 1b) tribute 1c) offering (to God) 1d) grain offering
Origin: from an unused root meaning to apportion, i.e. bestow; TWOT - 1214a; n f
Usage: AV - offering 164, present 28, gift 7, oblation 6, sacrifice 5, meat 1; 211

These 'offerings' are different than tithes.

There is Melchezidek, who was a priest; he gave tithes:

4643 rfe[]m; ma`aser {mah-as-ayr'} or rf;[]m; ma`asar {mah-as-ar'} and (in pl.) fem. ma`asrah {mah-as-raw'}
Meaning: 1) tithe, tenth part 1a) tenth part 1b) tithe, payment of a tenth part
Origin: from 06240; TWOT - 1711h; n m
Usage: AV - tithe 27, tenth part 2, tenth 2, tithing 1; 32

Genesis 14:18-20 18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Then there is the command in regards to the Levite priests:

Numbers 18:20-24 0 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel. 21 And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. 22 Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die. 23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. 24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

The tithe was to support the priest whom had no inheritance.

Moving further ahead, we have now a high priest, according to the order of Melchezidek; who reigns forever. Surely a priest is worthy of tithes. Does Christ eat or need support? His inheritance is:

Hebrews 1:1-14 KJV Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. {again...: or, when he bringeth again} 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and
his ministers a flame of fire. {And of: Gr. And unto} 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. {righteousness: Gr. rightness, or, straightness} 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Christs atonement was sufficient:

Hebrews 10:10 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Are we not all priests?

Revelation 1:5-6 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Has not the physical temple where the Levites worked destroyed? Are we not the temple now?

1 Corinthians 3:16 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwellet

It has been posed that the NT does not mention the tithe; my response to this treatment is that it is poor hermenuetics and dispensational at best. However, after looking at a passage in Acts, it seems obvious that the Apostles were not holding to the idea:

Acts 5:1-4 KJV Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? {to lie to: or, to deceive} 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

As well, as expressed earlier in this thread, was the tithe ever monitary?

So, my question is, if we are priests, if Christ is high and lifted up, a priest forever according to the order of Melchezidek, not needing Earthly provision and support as the former priests that die and in need of physical sustanence, the temple destroyed and we now temples of the HS, one that cannot be destroyed, how can we be under this mandate to tithe if Christ does not need inheritance nor support? Am I missing something here?

 

[gwine]

Those that minister to us are still worthy of their labor and Paul does tell us to support them, even though he did not press the issue for himself. And they are part of the body of Christ. Should we not want to give to support this part of the Church?

But I guess I still don't know whether to call it a tithe.