Tabletop Roleplaying - disqualified for ministry activity?
- Thread starter ownash
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Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
I heard D&D was created by seminary students.
TheOldCourse
Puritan Board Sophomore
They might be fine as games, but what do you mean as tools for discipling/ministry? For discipling and ministry we have the instituted means of grace which are sufficient.
Yes, I am not saying that they are meant to be on any high level of discipling...but what I am asking is if something about fantasy, D&D, Pathfinder inherently disqualifies them for being part of a discipleship process.
More specifically, I had inquired with my pastor about the possibility of hosting a game night and allowing kids (my community has a pretty serious tabletop scene amongst middle school and high school aged students) to play these types of games, along with others.
While he didn't seem to have a problem with it, he indicated that the Church viewed them as sinful and disqualified from being part of a ministry.
Surely not, but that doesn't answer the question.
There are no commands in Scripture to have a youth group bowling night, yet they do so and I believe that is part of discipling the kids. Which is in turn part of the church's youth ministry.
TheOldCourse
Puritan Board Sophomore
I don't really see how a bowling night is discipling either. It's recreation. If there's an adult from the church involved it's chaparoned recreation. That's fine but calling it ministry only tends to diminish actual ministry of Word and Sacrament.
Back to your question regarding its appropriateness, if doing so would scandalize members of your church's congregation you shouldn't do it even if you and your pastor don't find the practice objectionable. Mind the weaker brother.
I don't think it really does diminish the word and sacrament at all, because the Word can be preached and given in nearly all situations - or is that not true? And these ancillary activities give opportunity to live as examples of the Word in our lives for the people we are training in doctrine, etc.
I'm really, also, not asking whether or not I should do it in my church or not. I already have my answer.
I was simply asking if it is in some way disqualified from being a part of ministry or discipleship.
TheOldCourse
Puritan Board Sophomore
I think you're going to have a hard time getting an answer here because most of us would dispute your premise--that recreation is ministerial or a means of discipling. It's clear that you come from an evangelical perspective where almost anything can be ministry. Many of us probably had the same perspective at some point since we have come out of generic evangelical backgrounds. That's fine but this is a confessionally Reformed forum and that generally entails a view that, properly speaking, ministry is the ordained administration of the public means of grace performed by officers of the church.
For instance, see WCF XXV.3:
The ordained officers of the church minister the Word and sacraments which are sufficient for the gathering and perfecting of the saints. Christ has not given his church bowling and D&D for the gathering and perfecting of the saints. These things are recreation and are common, rather than sacred, activities. Like most common activities they can be opportunities for growth in that they provide occasion for Christians to encourage each other to godly conduct and for more mature Christians to model that role. But they are still common activities.
What you seem to be asking about is a tertium quid, a third category of activities which is neither fully sacred in that it is not ordained by Christ for the gathering and perfecting of the saints but also not a common activity as it still has to meet a standard of suitability for ministry. For you, it seems that you view tabletop games as lawful for common, recreational use but are not sure if they meet another, ill-defined, higher standard than lawfulness for recreation. The only higher standard many of us recognize is that of Christ's command and it doesn't meet this standard--that, I think, is Joshua's point--and so we can't really answer your question.
Krak3n
Puritan Board Freshman
Hey now, I think 5th edition is solid. It's much more streamlined than 3rd and 4th.
Ok, I haven't actually played 5th, but I've listened to and watched many sessions of it.
I just play "Sword and Backpack", who has time for the full systems anymore.
ArminianOnceWas
Puritan Board Freshman
Nowhere in Scripture is participation on PuritanBoard commanded either, but somehow we are all still here.
Parakaleo
Puritan Board Sophomore
Among the actual Puritans, you will find several that argue that games involving chance (dealing cards, rolling dice, "casting lots") are light and vain appeals to the providence of God and therefore violations of the Third Commandment, which calls us to absolute reverence in everything pertaining to God. Casting lots, which can be construed as consulting God's providence in a matter, isn't to be done for our recreation and amusement (so the argument goes). Just throwing that out there!
My kids are grown but we never knowing let them go hang out with dungeons and dragons.
They got really good at chess. Bigger crowds played Risk for hours, and Axis and Allies, and Bananagrams.
There are all sorts of decent table top games out there. You don't need to use the ones with the dark or demonic characters.
The idea of game night is great and you may build rappor with the kids and I would say go for it. But "be not imitators of evil" applies to some of these role playing games.
They got really good at chess. Bigger crowds played Risk for hours, and Axis and Allies, and Bananagrams.
There are all sorts of decent table top games out there. You don't need to use the ones with the dark or demonic characters.
The idea of game night is great and you may build rappor with the kids and I would say go for it. But "be not imitators of evil" applies to some of these role playing games.
Ben Zartman
Puritan Board Junior
We're all here, but this is not by any means a ministry--we're all just hanging out chatting. In the same way, bowling nights or game nights are not ministries--they're just people hanging out. Nothing wrong with it, but it cannot be considered a ministry. So to the OP I would say: play games if you like, but don't imagine that such things are a "ministy of the church"
Jack K
Puritan Board Doctor
Owen, you've probably figured out that you will get further here by asking if these games are acceptable for a church-sponsored "fellowship event" or "recreation" rather than calling them "ministry." Folks are rightly irked by how all manner of things get called "ministry" these days, too often to the neglect of disciplines such as Bible teaching.
I will take your side, though, far enough to agree that if you are in a mentoring relationship with teenagers or have been appointed by your church to teach them, it can be helpful to play games with them sometimes or do other relationship-building activities. So I will try to answer you.
I'm somewhat uncomfortable with role-playing games. I'm not absolutely sure I should be uncomfortable, but I am. They tend to involve fantasizing about works of magic, which feels overly escapist at best and admiring of witchcraft at worst. They also tend to become all-consuming for some kids. Plus, some believers are convinced these games celebrate the occult, which makes them a potential source of offense in the church even if this is untrue. Put it all together, and even if the games aren't clearly forbidden they strike me as unwise in your situation. Better to just do something else.
Besides, you said the community already has a big role-playing game scene. Why do what everyone's already doing?
Please do remember that anybody can play games with kids, but the church has something far better for them: The church has Jesus. And the church advances not by offering what everyone else does, but by offering what no one else can.
I will take your side, though, far enough to agree that if you are in a mentoring relationship with teenagers or have been appointed by your church to teach them, it can be helpful to play games with them sometimes or do other relationship-building activities. So I will try to answer you.
I'm somewhat uncomfortable with role-playing games. I'm not absolutely sure I should be uncomfortable, but I am. They tend to involve fantasizing about works of magic, which feels overly escapist at best and admiring of witchcraft at worst. They also tend to become all-consuming for some kids. Plus, some believers are convinced these games celebrate the occult, which makes them a potential source of offense in the church even if this is untrue. Put it all together, and even if the games aren't clearly forbidden they strike me as unwise in your situation. Better to just do something else.
Besides, you said the community already has a big role-playing game scene. Why do what everyone's already doing?
Please do remember that anybody can play games with kids, but the church has something far better for them: The church has Jesus. And the church advances not by offering what everyone else does, but by offering what no one else can.
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Southern Presbyterian
Puritan Board Doctor
Ryan&Amber2013
Puritan Board Senior
By definition, ministry refers to the duties of the church. The church can play games and minister during the games (counsel a couple for example), but the games are not the ministry. Ministry is ministering.
OPC'n
Puritan Board Doctor
I would highly caution you against role play of any kind. I don't know the game of which you speak, but before salvation I was involved in online games which leads to a garbage heap even in the heathens' mind. Unsaved ppl would comment that they needed to take a break bc they were spending too much time being someone they were not and doing things that weren't based in reality. Then you would see them come back within a month or less bc of the addiction they had to the game. Visual fantasy is highly addictive and I would never introduce anyone to it even if the contents of the game are not sinful.
Krak3n
Puritan Board Freshman
I can confirm what you say about online games. Specifically MMORPG's, like World of Warcraft. I have lost many hours in those games. Probably months, hopefully not a full year, but cumulative... it's possible.
When my friends and I switched to tabletop games we played much less, maybe 3 hours in a week, because you can't just log in and play any time you have a spare moment. I would say people spend more time on Facebook than they would tabletop RPGs. This is due to the "always on" feature inherent in online gaming and social groups... *cough* Puritanboard *cough*
Now I just play with my kids on Saturday morning (2-2.5 hours a week), running an adventure I created (therefore evil is not rewarded), with a super slim system.
I understand what you are saying, having experienced the same thing. So understand that I disagree, but on specific grounds as I mentioned above. (I am a functioning member of society again, but I still get to go on "adventures".
SRoper
Puritan Board Graduate
I guess I'm new school--5th edition is pretty great.
To the OP, discipling can and should happen in a variety of contexts--all contexts, really (Deut. 6:7). Tabletop games have some advantages over other activities in that everyone is face to face and talking to each other anyway. There is a lot of potential to use roll-playing games to teach. They develop creativity, social skills, and cooperation without really trying. However, it is unnecessary to push for this activity if the church is opposed to it.
ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
I've never seen the act of geeking out put in such edifying words.
ZackF
Puritan Board Professor
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