Rom 11:2 Elect of Israel or All?

[tcalbrecht]

If the Lord also promises through Paul in Romans 9-11 a major national conversion of the Jews, which hasn't happened yet, as Professor John Murray and others have said, then it is going to be a problem for the Lord.

I'm not sure I see a future, national conversion of Jews in Romans 9-11.

Quote from Tom

Does a post-apostolic convert to Judaism share in the original blessing to Abraham's natural seed?

Even before the end of the apostolic period, the Jews were not a pure Semitic race descending from Abraham. There was always provision for others to become Jews (see Genesis 17).

Are the Jews a nation or a religion or both. Like the Church, they are both.

But during Paul's time -- that time of overlap between the old and new covenants -- it was possible for one to be a Jew according to the old covenant, since it was, at least in part, still operative. That has not been the case since the destruction of Jerusalem and the introduction of pure rabbinic Judaism almost 2000 years ago. The old covenant has passed away. There are no Jews today on terms that would have been recognizable to Paul.

The Jews today are not a nation as the Church is a nation before God. The Church stands unique in this regard, and has for the last 2000 years.

 

[Peairtach]

Tom

I'm not sure I see a future, national conversion of Jews in Romans 9-11.

I do, along with others better able than myself. I hold to it more strongly after analysing Palmer Robertson's essay which tried to refute it in his book "The Israel of God".

But during Paul's time -- that time of overlap between the old and new covenants -- it was possible for one to be a Jew according to the old covenant, since it was, at least in part, still operative. That has not been the case since the destruction of Jerusalem and the introduction of pure rabbinic Judaism almost 2000 years ago. The old covenant has passed away. There are no Jews today on terms that would have been recognizable to Paul.

What about the Covenant with the Fathers, the Abrahamic Covenant.

The Apostle was wasting a lot of time on a rather short section of Old/New Covenant redemptive history, for which He gave a noted doxology.

He did not tell us that the Jews were going to cease to exist. Even scholars like Palmer Robertson don't assert that they have ceased to exist, because they say that God has always had a small number of his elect among them.

You are saying that Romans 9-11 is telling us that God will always have a small number of elect Jews between the writing of the Book of Romans and A.D. 70, at which point the Jews ceased to exist, and yet in Romans 9-11, the inspired Apostle fails to tell us that they will cease to exist?!

Are there any Reformed commentaries on Romans that hold to the view that the Apostle is only addressing the pre-A.D. 70 period in Romans 9-11?

The Jews today are not a nation as the Church is a nation before God. The Church stands unique in this regard, and has for the last 2000 years.

I would agree that they are not like the Church. They are beloved for the Fathers' sakes but enemies for the Gospel's sake.

But we are engrafted into their stock and take on the character of "spiritual Israelites", not "spiritual Gentiles"

The Apostle says these "natural branches" can be engrafted again, but you are saying that they can't, because since A.D. 70 there are no natural branches.

Tom

The only operative covenant today is the new covenant. The old covenant was decaying and ready to pass away when Hebrews was written (8:13). The final collapse happened in AD70.

The New Covenant is an administration of the Abrahamic Covenant, as was the Old Covenant.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Richard,

I think you misunderstand my position somewhat. Obviously those who call themselves "Jews" as well as gentiles have been and are being saved during the past 2000 years, since God is no respecter of persons. What I do not see in Romans 9-11 is the necessity of holding to a national regathering of Israel at some point in the future. The nation of Israel has ceased to be. That is a fact. The Abrahamic covenant, as far as national Israel is concerned, has ceased to be. Those who call themselves Jews do not live according to any form of the biblical covenant.

I do not see a restoration of the nation of Israel any more than I see a restoration of the ancient Greek or Roman empires on the pages of the NT.

The fact that "All Israel will be saved" does not demand a national restoration for its fulfillment, in my opinion. Our prayer is that many who call themselves Jews regardless of their ethnicity would come to Christ and be grafted into His body, The Church, the one true nation of God.

 

[Peairtach]

Richard,

I think you misunderstand my position somewhat. Obviously those who call themselves "Jews" as well as gentiles have been and are being saved during the past 2000 years, since God is no respecter of persons. What I do not see in Romans 9-11 is the necessity of holding to a national regathering of Israel at some point in the future. The nation of Israel has ceased to be. That is a fact. The Abrahamic covenant, as far as national Israel is concerned, has ceased to be. Those who call themselves Jews do not live according to any form of the biblical covenant.

I do not see a restoration of the nation of Israel any more than I see a restoration of the ancient Greek or Roman empires on the pages of the NT.

The fact that "All Israel will be saved" does not demand a national restoration for its fulfillment, in my opinion. Our prayer is that many who call themselves Jews regardless of their ethnicity would come to Christ and be grafted into His body, The Church, the one true nation of God.

I don't understand your position. Is it held by any Reformed commentaries on Romans?

The Apostle talks about the Jews being "the natural branches" and warns us against boasting against them, but you are saying that since A.D. 70 (?) the Jews and Nation of Israel no longer exist.

since God is no respecter of persons.

The Apostle is saying that there will always be a small number of Jews, or "Jews" as you call them, who believe. He is not giving this promise about any other nation.

I don't understand your position, since you seem to be saying that the Apostle was speaking about is only relevant for a short period from the writing of Romans, until the Jews ceased to exist, and then you tell us that "Jews" as you call them, have been saved since then. Presumably what the Apostle is saying is utterly irrelevant to Jews and Gentiles being saved in our day. But he doesn't put such a limitation on his words anywhere.

Yet the Apostle tells us not to be arrogant towards the Jews. Is it arrogance to say that they don't exist?

I can understand Palmer Robertson's approach to this passage, better than yours.

If the Jews are "Jews" Romans 11 is irrelevant. How did the Jews turn into "Jews" in A.D. 70? If God had wanted them to be completely wiped out, He could have let the Romans do it.

Is this just a severe reaction to Dispensational hoopla and an extreme preterist approach to Romans 11?

 

[tcalbrecht]

Richard,

It would be similar to any commentary that does not hold to a nationalist restoration of Israel in the future, e.g., Calvin.

And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.” This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith.

While Israel was identifiable as a nation by virtue of the old covenant, these promises held. And it is true that no small portion of Israel in that day came to faith in their Messiah, perhaps even a majority in some areas. But since the destruction of AD70 that old covenant and the claims of Israel the nation have passed away, or rather has been fully transferred to the Church. Israel the nation can never again exist. Rather Jews receive their salvation by ingrafting into the body of Christ, the Church.

As I said, I see no requirement that Romans 9-11 be read in a nationalist sense wrt Israel.

 

[Peairtach]

Well I would say with your view being posited, there are three views:

(a) The view that the Jews still exist, and that there will always be a small number of these natural branches in the Olive Tree, and returned to the Olive Tree, but that at some point there will be a national ingrafting.

(b) The view that the Jews still exist, amd that there will always be a small number of these natural branches in the Olive Tree, and returned to the Olive Tree, but thee will be no national revival.


(c) The view that the Jews, natural branches, do not exist as natural branches, and are therefore "Jews", but some are saved down through the centuries, but not according to Paul's plan in Romans 11. How could it be according to Paul's plan, since the Jews do not exist?

Calvin

And so all Israel, etc. Many understand this of the Jewish people, as though Paul had said, that religion would again be restored among them as before: but I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, — “When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first-born in God’s family.” This interpretation seems to me the most suitable, because Paul intended here to set forth the completion of the kingdom of Christ, which is by no means to be confined to the Jews, but is to include the whole world. The same manner of speaking we find in Galatians 6:16. The Israel of God is what he calls the Church, gathered alike from Jews and Gentiles; and he sets the people, thus collected from their dispersion, in opposition to the carnal children of Abraham, who had departed from his faith.

I believe Calvin did believe in a national conversion of the Jews (although I may be wrong on this) although he held that "all Israel" refers to all believers.

I tend to think that "all Israel" refers to all believers myself, although I believe in a national conversion of the Jews from Romans 11.