Possible PCUSA Split
- Thread starter VirginiaHuguenot
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Neo-Whine-skins
As a dying Warfield said to Machen many years ago, "You can't split rotten wood." And he was right. The OPC cleaved as a splinter. The Presbyterian Layman is the unofficial chronicle of the uninterrupted series of defeats and humiliating compromises of the milquetoast middlers in the mainline church, such that today for example, we find conservative female "pastors" of that body are shocked, simply shocked at some of the stances of their church. No ultimate commitment to the unchanging authority of God's infallible Word.
But, the "confessing church movement" and the EPC, and maybe a fair chunk of the PCA, will eventually be one organic whole, er... hole: the triumph of pragmatic evangelicalism, a "hollow victory."
Just a prediction...
[Edited on 6-24-2005 by Contra_Mundum]
As a dying Warfield said to Machen many years ago, "You can't split rotten wood." And he was right. The OPC cleaved as a splinter. The Presbyterian Layman is the unofficial chronicle of the uninterrupted series of defeats and humiliating compromises of the milquetoast middlers in the mainline church, such that today for example, we find conservative female "pastors" of that body are shocked, simply shocked at some of the stances of their church. No ultimate commitment to the unchanging authority of God's infallible Word.
But, the "confessing church movement" and the EPC, and maybe a fair chunk of the PCA, will eventually be one organic whole, er... hole: the triumph of pragmatic evangelicalism, a "hollow victory."
Just a prediction...
[Edited on 6-24-2005 by Contra_Mundum]
VirginiaHuguenot
Puritanboard Librarian
"I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on here!" -- Claude Rains, Casablanca
Michael Butterfield
Puritan Board Freshman
Is'nt there some type of a broad position statement consisting of three points or so that you have to hold to be in the Confessing Church Movement that are very milquetoast? (Sorry, I cannot remember what they are, but I think it is three.)
Presbyrino
Puritan Board Freshman
Is there any possibility of the consvervative split from the PCUSA in joining the PCA or OPC? I don't forsee them joining the OPC, but maybe the PCA.
Michael Butterfield
Puritan Board Freshman
I cannot see that happening in the PCA, but I could be wrong. It just seems that the conservative movement in the USA church is generally much less conservative than in the PCA. So, I say I cannot see it happening not because we would not accept them, but because I do not see the "conservative" USA churches embracing the conservativism of the PCA.
[Edited on 6-24-2005 by Michael Butterfield]
Abd_Yesua_alMasih
Puritan Board Junior
I do not know the American "religious map" so I need to ask a question to understand this thread. While splits are never "good" is this one a sigh of relief or a "O no not another fracture"? I am assuming it is a sigh of relief that someone is standing up for something.
wsw201
Puritan Board Senior
I don't think that there is anyway that they would join the PCA or OPC. The PCUSA is not a confessional church like the OPC and PCA. There is no subscription plus they would have to give up all women Ministers, Elders and Deacons. I think they would be a better fit for the EPC.
blhowes
Puritan Board Professor
Let's say the gay thing passes in favor of the liberal side of the denomination and there is a split between the 'conservatives' and the liberals. Can anybody envision a time or sitation where these liberals would say, "enough is enough", and choose to separate from the PCUSA? Do you think that would only happen if the denomination turned around and the majority of the denomination became reformed...or is it possible that it could happen if it got more contrary to the scriptures?
tcalbrecht
Puritan Board Junior
"The Rev. David Henderson of West Lafayette, Ind., moderator of New Wineskins, sees three possibilities for the church's future:
"_A thoroughly reformed denomination such as New Wineskins proposes;"
Will they go so far as to reform themselves from the error of distaff elders? Or will this be a "be nice" reformation?
"_A thoroughly reformed denomination such as New Wineskins proposes;"
Will they go so far as to reform themselves from the error of distaff elders? Or will this be a "be nice" reformation?
wsw201
Puritan Board Senior
The only way the liberals would bolt the PCUSA would be if they believed there was no chance of getting their agenda through GA and the Presbyteries and the PCUSA actually started disciplining officers who refused to comply with church polity. And even with that, they would need to broker a deal so they could take their property.
For the denomination to become reformed would truly be an act of Divine intervention. The PCUSA is in no way Reformed. They have a mix of theologies, ie; old style liberalism, neo-liberalism, neo-orthodoxy, and various forms of liberation theology.
pretty sharp, Andrew!Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
What are they splitting between the theologically liberal, bleeding heart left-wingers and the really really theologically liberal bleeding heart left-wingers?
I admit us Baptists have lots of theological liberals in our midst, especially in the SBC. I used to make fun of Baptists for that reason and I used to be a Congregationalist.
rmwilliamsjr
Puritan Board Freshman
anyone have a set of references for study on the liberal-conservative split in the american presbyterian church?
what i've read thus far is mostly about Machen, looking for references on what was going on in the southern church.
tia
what i've read thus far is mostly about Machen, looking for references on what was going on in the southern church.
tia
M.H. Smith. How is the gold become dim. (justification of PCUS split, documentary history of liberal slide, up to PCA formation)
History of the Southern Presbyterian Church, by Thomas Cary Johnson (early history)
http://www.pcanet.org/history/
Thompson, Ernest Trice, Presbyterians in the South, in three volumes (Richmond, VA: John Knox Press, 1963 and 1973) 629pp., 528pp.and 636pp. respectively, all volumes indexed. The definitive history of the Southern Presbyterian Church.
http://www.pcanet.org/history/topicalresources/bibliography.html
History of the Southern Presbyterian Church, by Thomas Cary Johnson (early history)
http://www.pcanet.org/history/
Thompson, Ernest Trice, Presbyterians in the South, in three volumes (Richmond, VA: John Knox Press, 1963 and 1973) 629pp., 528pp.and 636pp. respectively, all volumes indexed. The definitive history of the Southern Presbyterian Church.
http://www.pcanet.org/history/topicalresources/bibliography.html
rmwilliamsjr
Puritan Board Freshman
_How is the Gold become dim_ i bought from Greenville seminary bookstore, big disappointment, next to useless. mostly official documents. appears to have been rushed to press to meet the separation deadline and never revised.
Presbyterians In the South
i'd forgotten that it was in 3 volumes, i have interlibrary loan on vol 3 now. thanks for the reminder. this will be a big help.
http://www.pcanet.org/history/ebooks/pcus/ch1.pdf
this looks excellent, it will be my afternoon's effort, thanks, i've missed it before in my visits to pcanet. looks like they've digitized 5 chapters.
there are several must read essays at:
http://www.pcanet.org/history/documents/index.html
I'm aware of the Gold's shortcomings. And I knew you had it from the previous class you taught, and those posts from some months back. I just mentioned it for other persons reading and for completeness becasue of
1) its quasi-official standing as background for the PCA's raison d'etre,
2) its authorship by a point-man in the issue, and
3) for the "primary source material"
1) its quasi-official standing as background for the PCA's raison d'etre,
2) its authorship by a point-man in the issue, and
3) for the "primary source material"
Puritanhead
Puritan Board Professor
Not the southerners have a monopoly on sound doctrine but theological liberalism rifts in churches often cut across the Mason-Dixon Line and ran along the Ohio. There are exceptions to the rule, but this is not a misplaced generalization.
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