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I'm trying to understand what you are getting at too.
Thoughts seem pretty clearly to be immaterial. They don't have mass, they don't have dimensions, etc. I think everyone would agree that the thought itself is independent of matter.
For example, a mathematical equation can be written on a piece of paper or it could just reside in your head. It could be translated into bits on a flash drive or even expressed in sea shells at a beach. The equation is not dependent upon matter for its existence.
But I wasn't saying that the fact of a thought's immateriality implied anything directly. I was just wondering why you were opposing immateriality against reflection.
Maybe I can be even more clear: Suppose I sit and reflect on the ways of the universe. In my mind I generate some thoughts on how it works and conclude that there are laws of logic. Those thoughts are immaterial. So in this little scenario, I consider the laws of logic to be immaterial and my reflection on the universe to be immaterial.
So the question about a dichotomy confuses me because immateriality can apply to both the laws of logic and reflection of the universe.
Or, by analogy, the question hit me like this one: "Is a dog an animal or mammal?" Since a mammal is a subset of animals, there is no dichotomy.
which part?
I understand Bahnsen and Van Til's argument for laws of logic, and I agree with them.
I am trying to counter an argument that states laws of logic are not immaterial, it is merely how the universe operates or is.
Just like if I see a mirror I know that it is not just matter in motion but a mirror, it has reference or aboutness etc. So I was thinking maybe laws of logic have the same thing.
I see even a bit more clearly what the issue you are dealing with is. Your opponent in argument is not clear about what he is trying to prove. I think he is trying to argue that the laws of logic are merely summations, created by man, of observations of how the universe works.
That is very similar to Stein's argument in the Bahnsen debate. He argued that logic was merely a convention. You might study that debate to see how Bahnsen answered that. It's pretty funny.
Just out of curiosity is your opponant appealing to darwin at all as an explination for logic?I see even a bit more clearly what the issue you are dealing with is. Your opponent in argument is not clear about what he is trying to prove. I think he is trying to argue that the laws of logic are merely summations, created by man, of observations of how the universe works.
That is very similar to Stein's argument in the Bahnsen debate. He argued that logic was merely a convention. You might study that debate to see how Bahnsen answered that. It's pretty funny.
Yes thats exactly what I am stating!
---------- Post added at 07:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------
So what would you say to that
I have listened to that debate countless times, and I most likely am missing something and though Bahnsen made several great points, I do not see where he answered my question. Though I could just not be smart enough in this subject and not get how he answered it.
Also this person probally holds to a strict scientific/materialistic WV right?The person you are arguing with would have to explain how they possibly could be material: Are they made of electrons? Or are they made of stardust? If he is right, certainly someone could touch a law of logic, or at least measure how fast they move in space. . . .