Does geography affect eschatology?

[Northern Crofter]

This recent thread brought to mind something that I have often wondered - does geography affect eschatology? In other words, limiting it to just the US and UK/Commonwealth lands, and to just the post-mil/a-mil positions, is there a pattern?

• I apologize for leaving out non-Anglo lands and our pre-mil friends, but I am trying to keep it simple.
• If you feel comfortable doing so, please feel free to add a comment regarding your particular church's location and predominate (or official) leaning.
• I'll leave it up to folks of one ethnicity living in the opposite land to determine what they identify as their "location."

 

[Edward]

I saw the headline and was thinking it was going to be a division between the former Confederate states, the Northeast, maybe midwest to catch the continental reformed folks, and the rest of the US. I wasn't expecting an American vs Commonwealth split

 

[Northern Crofter]

I saw the headline and was thinking it was going to be a division between the former Confederate states, the Northeast, maybe midwest to catch the continental reformed folks, and the rest of the US. I wasn't expecting an American vs Commonwealth split

That would be an interesting poll, too!

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I'm not sure geography affects it as much as historical conditions themselves. America was most postmillennial (proportionally) when they were historically most optimistic about progress and their place in the world.

 

[DanSSwing]

I'm not sure geography affects it as much as historical conditions themselves. America was most postmillennial (proportionally) when they were historically most optimistic about progress and their place in the world.

That's understandable, but ironically I became postmil while simultaneously becoming more pessimistic about the immediate future.

 

[Northern Crofter]

I'm not sure geography affects it as much as historical conditions themselves.

I agree. I was having difficulty coming up with a title and keeping it brief. I was thinking more in terms of human geography than physical geography - in other words I was curious to see if there is a connection between the human history of an area (who moved there and why and what occurred there) and the predominate eschatology (if any) that emerges.

Perhaps the only conclusion so far is that our UK/Commonwealth brethren are less apt to participate in polls - I'll give it a week

 

[Sovereign Grace]

US & Dispensational Pre-Millennialism as that was not an option in the poll.

But I am post-mill.

 

[Northern Crofter]

US & Dispensational Pre-Millennialism as that was not an option in the poll.

I assume you mean this is the stance of your particular congregation - the poll was regarding your status personally, so dispensational pre-mil was not an option since no one on PB holds that view.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

I assume you mean this is the stance of your particular congregation - the poll was regarding your status personally, so dispensational pre-mil was not an option since no one on PB holds that view.

When you said your location and eschatology, I thought you meant what the consensus of the area I live in was. My bad for not picking up what you laid down. But I’m post-mill in a largely Dispensational area.

 

[John The Baptist]

a largely Dispensational area.

Let’s just edit this a little bit….

a large Dispensational area.

Much better


*Dispensational regions marked with blue*

EDIT:

Sorry, this map is more accurate:

 

[Edward]

so dispensational pre-mil was not an option since no one on PB holds that view.

There may be some Historic Pre-Mils around. I agree that Dispensational is not an acceptable view.

 

[Northern Crofter]

There may be some Historic Pre-Mils around. I agree that Dispensational is not an acceptable view.

Right - I tried to acknowledge the former in the OP. I only know of one ( @RamistThomist ) currently active on PB - or at least he is the only one that admits it!

 

[RamistThomist]

Right - I tried to acknowledge the former in the OP. I only know of one ( @RamistThomist ) currently active on PB - or at least he is the only one that admits it!

I'm amil.

 

[DanSSwing]

I remained Historic Premil for about two years after becoming a five-pointer. Then I became more Reformed.

 

[Northern Crofter]

I'm amil.

My apologies - I thought you were. Or maybe you were but now aren't?

 

[mpinckard]

My apologies - I thought you were. Or maybe you were but now aren't?

In my list of "similar threads" is this thread from two years ago in which RamistThomist announces his shift from premill to amill.

 

[MilitaryBrat2007]

Another thing too is that many of the Constitutions of European powers do reference God (America's does not, but the Declaration of Independence and the Treaty of Paris does). So this could signify the intent of God's reign over man.

Oh, and I am post-mill if you're wondering...

 

[RamistThomist]

My apologies - I thought you were. Or maybe you were but now aren't?

I was in the past, and I do believe in things like a future Antichrist

 

[Northern Crofter]

Another thing too is that many of the Constitutions of European powers do reference God (America's does not, but the Declaration of Independence and the Treaty of Paris does). So this could signify the intent of God's reign over man.

The US Constitution does mention God at the very end - before supplanting Him: "...done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance [sic] of the United States of America the Twelfth."

The Declaration is not (regrettably) a constitutional document and not part of the law of the United States - for example, you could not (again, regrettably) appeal to it in a US court as it has no legal authority. There was a vast shift in power and purpose between the leadership and ideals of the Declaration of Independence/Articles of Confederation and the US Constitution that few are aware of. It is notable that only 6 men (out of 56) who signed the Declaration also signed the Constitution (and not because they all died in the American War for Independence - only 9 did). It can be argued that the Declaration was a very Christian document - the same cannot be argued for the Constitution.

 

[Northern Crofter]

In my list of "similar threads" is this thread from two years ago in which RamistThomist announces his shift from premill to amill.

Thank you for that link (I particularly enjoyed the 2nd post ). Again, I apologize to @RamistThomist for misrepresenting him.

 

[itsreed]

I'm not sure geography affects it as much as historical conditions themselves. America was most postmillennial (proportionally) when they were historically most optimistic about progress and their place in the world.

Yes. Change “geography” to “historical-cultural context”, and differences are most likely (obviously?) influenced by such factors.

 

[Laborer for the Lord]

There was a vast shift in power and purpose between the leadership and ideals of the Declaration of Independence/Articles of Confederation and the US Constitution that few are aware of.

Could you perhaps recommend a few resources that delve deeper into that transition, Andrew? Two of my ancestors were signatories of both (the Rutledge brothers from SC), and although I am well aware of the essentially non legal nature of the Declaration in modern textualist/originalist jurisprudence, ala Robert Bork and others, it seems impossible to ignore its influence on political developments during the post-Civil War period and the progressive era.

 

[Northern Crofter]

Two of my ancestors were signatories of both (the Rutledge brothers from SC),

That is pretty cool to be able to say - none of my ancestors had made it across the Atlantic yet!

Could you perhaps recommend a few resources that delve deeper into that transition, Andrew?

To go really deep, go with Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787 by Gordon S. Wood. An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution of the United States by Charles A. Beard was/is somewhat controversial (his thesis is basically that the wealthy took control of post-colonial America and set up a constitution that would benefit their class). I have on my reading list The Godless Constitution by Isaac Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore which is a shorter work that I have heard shows the departure from the very Christian ideals of the Dec. of Ind. in favor of a secular humanist (i.e. "Enlightened") Constitution. There is another I read years ago by a Christian author but I cannot recall the name or author - I remember it being thought-provoking (started my thinking on this issue) but not terribly brilliant. If someone mentioned it I would probably remember it...

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

My apologies - I thought you were. Or maybe you were but now aren't?

Jacob's eschatology changes every so often, so do not feel bad about being confused. No one else can keep up with it all.

 

[RamistThomist]

Jacob's eschatology changes every so often, so do not feel bad about being confused. No one else can keep up with it all.

I know we are joking, but I haven't changed in four years. The only reason it looks like I changed is because even though I am amil, there are areas where amil hasn't done a great job.

Also, for what it's worth,, I did a talk on the millennium for my church last Wednesday night. I have the audio if anyone is interested. Just DM me.