Call of Duty?
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AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
May a teenager play a game where participants kill one another? It might depend on the teen, but my only qualm with the Call of Duty games is that I get sucked into them and can't get out.
InSlaveryToChrist
Puritan Board Junior
How sick must a person's mind be to be able to take pleasure in the suffering of others?! I wonder why people always want to kill instead of healing. I remember from my early life of gaming (when I yet did not know the Lord) how seldom did any gamer want to be a healer of any sort (if it even was an option). Men desire power and might, not to the end of defending others, but the exact opposite. I guess that if a man could change parts with God, he would most certainly like to see all of creation suffer at his own hand in a most dreadful way. Thus, we see how true it is when God says He IS love and holy. Love is a swearword of the worst kind to this world. Not only are men selfish, that is, seek their own pleasure at the cost of others' suffering, BUT THEIR VERY PLEASURE IS TO SEE OTHERS SUFFER!
I wonder why people always want to kill instead of healing. I remember from my early life of gaming (when I yet did not know the Lord) how seldom did any gamer want to be a healer of any sort (if it even was an option)
My kid played a healer in one online game a few years ago up to a high level with all sorts of power. His guy could resurrect dead teammates. He finally sold the guy on ebay for almost 700 bucks. Got the money, sent the password, everybody was happy.
This whole subject drives me nuts
Wish my kids would just read books and serve the Lord.
My kid played a healer in one online game a few years ago up to a high level with all sorts of power. His guy could resurrect dead teammates. He finally sold the guy on ebay for almost 700 bucks. Got the money, sent the password, everybody was happy.
This whole subject drives me nuts
Wish my kids would just read books and serve the Lord.Boosterseat_91
Puritan Board Freshman
Whoa. Hang on a minute. There is very flawed logic in saying that because people like games with violence and killings rather than being the healer on these games, if the option is available, that men love seeing others suffer and power. That seems more like a secular psychologist's diagnosis on a boy who likes to fight too much rather than a Christian's perspective which is he is a depraved boy who needs to be born again.
I like fighting and war games but I do not, and this is the case for most people, like to see others suffer. I might point out that many war games or violent games are still the good guys vs. bad guys which means it is not just suffering for the sake of suffering but justice. Plus, having played Final Fantasy 11 online, I know many, many people who love to be the white mage, the "healer." It's only a preference of what character you like to be, not some sort of manifestation of some type of "love."
---------- Post added at 06:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 PM ----------
I've never really played Call of Duty but I know it is a war game. I've played some other war games and I don't see any problem with them. In fact, they're more fun cause they are not just a button presser but you actually have to think and have all different sorts of weapons and stuff. I think they're fine as long as you're not addicted to them.
AThornquist
Puritan Board Doctor
Or maybe it's because a healer without a rockin' guild/clan gets frustrated with pickup groups that end up getting ripped in PvP. Noob tanks that can't peel r the suxor
---------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------
Perhaps I just revealed too much about my past.
darrellmaurina
Puritan Board Freshman
War games are war games. We can't get around that, and shouldn't try. They're not pure entertainment; they're games with a purpose that teach things, in the same sense that playing Monopoly teaches certain things.
Teach biblical principles of war, including when death and violence is biblically justified, and a teen can decide whether he wants to play those games, and much more importantly, why.
Not everyone is called to be a soldier. Some people are. I don't have any more problem with a teenager in 2010 playing war games with computers than with a kid fifty or seventy years ago playing "cowboys and indians" with stick rifles.
Yeah, I know that blood, gore and guts are much more visible in computer games, but that's not necessarily a problem. Being a soldier is a legitimate Christian calling and getting a small taste through a game of what that means is not a bad thing, any more than playing Monopoly gives kids a small taste of what it means to be in a cutthroat competitive business environment.
However, there's a reality behind the game we can't let the gamer forget. Showing real videos of exploding IEDs and Islamofascists cutting off people's heads may be gory, but it's a very good idea to show someone interested in playing war games that war is **NOT** a game, and we have very good reason to fight evil people who want to destroy American freedom and kill every Christian who won't submit to dhimmitude.
About a year ago, I sat a young Korean teenager down who is interested in joining the U.S. Army, and showed her war footage from the Korean War, including photos of American artillery pieces in front of the destroyed ruins of Seoul City Hall lobbing shells toward North Korean lines, and photos of horribly mangled Korean kids and refugees fleeing to the safety of American lines as the smoke rose behind them from their burning cities and villages, to show her **EXACTLY** why her father and grandfather fought to keep her country free from Communism. I then showed her pictures of young women in Islamic countries who had their nose and ears cut off for not wearing the veil, and a video of a young woman being stoned to death for insulting Islam. I deliberately showed her pictures of young women about her own age. That was gory in the extreme, far worse than any game. It's also the reality against which we fight.
Of course, I'm quite aware that no game can compare to the reality of Iraq and Afghanistan. There's also no way T-ball or Little League can compare to Major League Baseball, and no way running a lemonade stand can compare to running a small company. There's nothing wrong with young people playing and exploring different things they might like to do with their lives, and unless we're going to write Oliver Cromwell and Stonewall Jackson out of the pages of Reformed church history, we can't write off violence and war as inherently evil.
In fact, for some of our children, a life of disciplined training to use violence in defense of their country may be exactly what God wants for their lives.
Teach biblical principles of war, including when death and violence is biblically justified, and a teen can decide whether he wants to play those games, and much more importantly, why.
Not everyone is called to be a soldier. Some people are. I don't have any more problem with a teenager in 2010 playing war games with computers than with a kid fifty or seventy years ago playing "cowboys and indians" with stick rifles.
Yeah, I know that blood, gore and guts are much more visible in computer games, but that's not necessarily a problem. Being a soldier is a legitimate Christian calling and getting a small taste through a game of what that means is not a bad thing, any more than playing Monopoly gives kids a small taste of what it means to be in a cutthroat competitive business environment.
However, there's a reality behind the game we can't let the gamer forget. Showing real videos of exploding IEDs and Islamofascists cutting off people's heads may be gory, but it's a very good idea to show someone interested in playing war games that war is **NOT** a game, and we have very good reason to fight evil people who want to destroy American freedom and kill every Christian who won't submit to dhimmitude.
About a year ago, I sat a young Korean teenager down who is interested in joining the U.S. Army, and showed her war footage from the Korean War, including photos of American artillery pieces in front of the destroyed ruins of Seoul City Hall lobbing shells toward North Korean lines, and photos of horribly mangled Korean kids and refugees fleeing to the safety of American lines as the smoke rose behind them from their burning cities and villages, to show her **EXACTLY** why her father and grandfather fought to keep her country free from Communism. I then showed her pictures of young women in Islamic countries who had their nose and ears cut off for not wearing the veil, and a video of a young woman being stoned to death for insulting Islam. I deliberately showed her pictures of young women about her own age. That was gory in the extreme, far worse than any game. It's also the reality against which we fight.
Of course, I'm quite aware that no game can compare to the reality of Iraq and Afghanistan. There's also no way T-ball or Little League can compare to Major League Baseball, and no way running a lemonade stand can compare to running a small company. There's nothing wrong with young people playing and exploring different things they might like to do with their lives, and unless we're going to write Oliver Cromwell and Stonewall Jackson out of the pages of Reformed church history, we can't write off violence and war as inherently evil.
In fact, for some of our children, a life of disciplined training to use violence in defense of their country may be exactly what God wants for their lives.
Boosterseat_91
Puritan Board Freshman
I would disagree and say they are purely entertainment. They involve strategy and skill and so are more entertaining than many other games even...Not many people I know from my own family and high school play war games because they want to be a soldier.
Wannabee
Obi Wan Kenobi
I would tend to disagree with Darrell on this. Yes, reality needs to be faced in all its ugliness at times. That part I'm in full agreement with. But the idea that games aid in this I think is flawed. First person shooters tend to numb kids to the difficulty of taking a life. The more real it is the more their consciences become deadened to the trauma of actually taking a life or maiming someone. There are enough studies, and there is enough history, to prove this. In order to preserve an abhorrence to perpetuating violence and foster a compassion for life I did not allow our sons to play first person shooters, nor will I play them. That is not to say I keep them from violence. We would readily watch a program and I often shared with them the reality of violence. Both are proficient with firearms. But I didn't want them dumbed down to the reality that people are real, not binary.
darrellmaurina
Puritan Board Freshman
Clarification -- not many people play Monopoly because they want to be Rupert Murdoch or Bill Gates. The game, however, has a purpose. It's not like playing catch or some other game with no direct connection to "real life."
War gaming has lots of strategy involved. So does Monopoly. So do the various SimCity and related games. The games can be enjoyable in their own right, but they teach some very specific things.
In the case of games like Grand Theft Auto and Mafia Wars, the premise of the game is inherently evil and the games should not be played by Christians. Fantasizing about stealing cars, robbing and killing people in rival gangs, etc., simply is not acceptable for Christians. I remember reading somebody's Facebook page where the invitation to a church event was right next to a criminal act committed in Mafia Wars. Is that a very good testimony?
In the case of war games, the claim by liberal psychologists that they desensitize kids to violence and gore has some validity. If you spend lots of time perfecting your skills and seeing some of the very graphic violence in those games, it **WILL** affect you. (So will deer or rabbit hunting, but lots of city kids never get to do that.) I don't have a problem with a war game that teaches kids that there's a legitimate purpose for violence. I do have a problem with a game that glorifies violence for no reason, or puts them in a position where killing "good guys" is the purpose of the game.
Violence is serious -- and potentially is deadly serious. Teaching the right and wrong use of violence to kids is not a bad idea. Teaching violence for no reason, or for bad reasons, is very wrong.
War gaming has lots of strategy involved. So does Monopoly. So do the various SimCity and related games. The games can be enjoyable in their own right, but they teach some very specific things.
In the case of games like Grand Theft Auto and Mafia Wars, the premise of the game is inherently evil and the games should not be played by Christians. Fantasizing about stealing cars, robbing and killing people in rival gangs, etc., simply is not acceptable for Christians. I remember reading somebody's Facebook page where the invitation to a church event was right next to a criminal act committed in Mafia Wars. Is that a very good testimony?
In the case of war games, the claim by liberal psychologists that they desensitize kids to violence and gore has some validity. If you spend lots of time perfecting your skills and seeing some of the very graphic violence in those games, it **WILL** affect you. (So will deer or rabbit hunting, but lots of city kids never get to do that.) I don't have a problem with a war game that teaches kids that there's a legitimate purpose for violence. I do have a problem with a game that glorifies violence for no reason, or puts them in a position where killing "good guys" is the purpose of the game.
Violence is serious -- and potentially is deadly serious. Teaching the right and wrong use of violence to kids is not a bad idea. Teaching violence for no reason, or for bad reasons, is very wrong.
Notthemama1984
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Are you saying that hunting should also be avoided because it desensitizes children?
Just asking out of clarification sake.
Just asking out of clarification sake.
Joseph Scibbe
Puritan Board Junior
I don't think they are good for anyone. I have seen the hours that are poured into games like these with absolutely no positive outcome. They waste time and lead to a desensitized view of war. War is ugly. I have not yet been but I have seen the aftermath and talked to people who have been and it is heart wrenching to hear about. But to someone who plays war games, these things become trivial and I have seen them do terrible things to peoples attitudes toward war. Also, I am terrible at video games so that helps me stay away from almost all of them.
Wannabee
Obi Wan Kenobi
I wouldn't term the desensitization of kids to shooting humans as psychology. I would term it as conditioning and studies show that it is more than simply relevant. Upon finding guns of soldiers from conflicts in the Civil War and both World Wars researchers were surprised that few actually fired their weapons, as low as 15 percent. Practicing against bull's eyes simply wasn't the same as firing upon person. The military began using human shapes for targets, then made pop ups, which brought the number of soldiers firing up to 90 percent. These first person shooters break down this built in aversion to killing humans even further by giving the "targets" faces, names, voices, painful responses, etc., all of which further to dumb them down to the reality of what transpires when a human life is taken. The boys who committed the Columbine shootings logged many hours on first person shooters prior to their shooting spree. This page gives some of the info, but a search will provide more than enough evidence to verify what's stated here.
To compare this to shooting animals is to buy into the whole Bambi psychobabble. Along comes a talking animal and all of a sudden it's a sad thing to put meat on the table unless you buy it from the store. Killing animals can be difficult for people as well. But there's no comparison whatsoever between shooting a human and shooting an animal. And the response of the human heart to the two should be vastly different, even if they had never shot a gun or taken a life before. The depraved conscience can be trained to ignore God in the taking of one who bears His image. First person shooters are a great tool in doing so.
To compare this to shooting animals is to buy into the whole Bambi psychobabble. Along comes a talking animal and all of a sudden it's a sad thing to put meat on the table unless you buy it from the store. Killing animals can be difficult for people as well. But there's no comparison whatsoever between shooting a human and shooting an animal. And the response of the human heart to the two should be vastly different, even if they had never shot a gun or taken a life before. The depraved conscience can be trained to ignore God in the taking of one who bears His image. First person shooters are a great tool in doing so.
Reformed Roman
Puritan Board Freshman
Most kids use first person shooters to kill and destroy others to make themselves feel superior though. In the right hands it can be a useful thing. If not, then yikes.
darrellmaurina
Puritan Board Freshman
If the question is for me, absolutely not.
I have zero problem with hunting, with the planned killing of meat animals domesticated and raised for that purpose, or with killing of nuisance animals that cause problems for humans (rats, feral hogs, termites, etc.)
Hunting can be sport. Taking a human life is not -- period.
Because of that, I can understand and respect the views of people who oppose highly realistic video war games. They **DO** desensitize those who play them to violence, and if someone believes that video shooting galleries should be used only by soldiers and police in training, and not for entertainment, I respect that view.
Personally I don't agree. Our popular entertainment is so filled with blood and gore that I do not believe first-person shooter scenarios are all that much worse for teenagers (the original topic of this post) than a lot of other stuff they see all the time.
The issue for me is teaching people that there is a right and wrong use of violence. If we say that there's something wrong with first-person video shooter games, how can we defend the "cops and robbers" and "cowboys and indians" games of "Leave it to Beaver" days? How about paintball games using realistic weaponry? The only difference is the level of realism in the violence. On the other hand, games that encourage people to take the role of an insurgent and shoot Americans don't belong anywhere outside an Islamic madrasa, and they have no place in a Christian home. Same for gangland shoot-em-ups.
Boosterseat_91
Puritan Board Freshman
If the fact that some source of entertainment (i.e. a book, video game, tv show, movie, etc...) has a some point to it (as pretty much everything does, such as a plot), requires it to have a "Christian" interpretation then I would rather just throw out every source of entertainment because that would simply be too many lectures. What I mean is, that video games (violent games specifically) are not the only thing that may have sub-points within a plot that are unchristian (whether the overall point is Christian or not). Thus, it seems ambiguous to have a universal among these points, rather, you should explain "unchristian" points as it seems necessary for a specific situation and a specific person. To understand the full implication of this means that this issue is a matter of conscience and not one that the Bible expressly or implicitly calls a sin or wrong in any universal way.
---------- Post added at 11:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------
This is not a biblical argument. This is arguing circumstantially. Perhaps we should stop reading anything not related to Christianity, and stop watching anything not expressly Christian, and listen to no other music then that of Christian (instrumental or otherwise) , and stop playing any game that is not Christian (even if its Go Fish) because nothing positive really comes out of it and thus are a waste of time...
Even if it has had this type of effect on some people, that does not make it universal. Thus, to say they aren't good for anyone is unfounded. For instance, you would have a really hard time making this argument against me as this has not been the case for my brothers or I.
It falls under Christian liberty so that best thing to do is to follow general principles of the Word (i.e. don't sin against your conscience, do not offend a weaker brother...)
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darrellmaurina
Puritan Board Freshman
Lots of games are more or less neutral when it comes to a Christian's participation.
Some aren't.
Killing people, apart from very specific situations, is sin. Robbing and participation in organized crime are sin. That means games like Grand Theft Auto and Mafia Wars are glorification of sin, turning it into entertainment.
First-person shooter games simply aren't the same as kickball or chess. Yes, it **IS** true that "some people need killing," and that's why we have police and soldiers and capital punishment through the court system. But should the deliberate taking of a human life be made into a game, ESPECIALLY when the game has photorealistic imagery with screams, maiming, and other aspects deliberately added to enhance its excitement while having the effect of desensitizing players to violence?
Those are legitimate questions. My answer is "yes." My primary emphasis in saying yes is to rebut liberals who treat all violence as wrong, and I believe it is entirely legitimate to teach kids that some violence is entirely appropriate and even required. I will defend the blood and gore as appropriate for a very specific purpose.
On the other hand, I respect the consciences of those who believe violence should not be a game but still support the mission of the military and law enforcement.
Some aren't.
Killing people, apart from very specific situations, is sin. Robbing and participation in organized crime are sin. That means games like Grand Theft Auto and Mafia Wars are glorification of sin, turning it into entertainment.
First-person shooter games simply aren't the same as kickball or chess. Yes, it **IS** true that "some people need killing," and that's why we have police and soldiers and capital punishment through the court system. But should the deliberate taking of a human life be made into a game, ESPECIALLY when the game has photorealistic imagery with screams, maiming, and other aspects deliberately added to enhance its excitement while having the effect of desensitizing players to violence?
Those are legitimate questions. My answer is "yes." My primary emphasis in saying yes is to rebut liberals who treat all violence as wrong, and I believe it is entirely legitimate to teach kids that some violence is entirely appropriate and even required. I will defend the blood and gore as appropriate for a very specific purpose.
On the other hand, I respect the consciences of those who believe violence should not be a game but still support the mission of the military and law enforcement.
Boosterseat_91
Puritan Board Freshman
So you're telling me it is a sin to play GTA or Mafia Wars? It is not "neutral" and you imply in a previous post that those who play these games "fantasize" about murder or what have you...That all seems like a very far stretch.
Perhaps if they were police games were you got to go around and lock up all the bad guys and kill those that resist it wouldn't have the same effect you claim it will? They might just learn about policemen...It seems your whole argument is dependent upon the effect it has on the on playing the game, the one you and others have claimed is a sort of "numbing" to reality. I'm willing to defend, however, that that effect is not universal thus not a means to justify the playing of these types of games as sin. It can only justify the use of Christian prudence since the video game could be a means to lead to sin.
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