Biblical Counseling and Sexless Marriages?

[Rev Bolin]

I have frequently encountered men in counsel regarding their marriages, and Biblical direction for their marriages and response to their wives. Most of these guys are not "Reformed", attending other churches, and these are men that I have had relationships in the past. (1) I am finding many of their pastors, especially of the non-denominational type, are reporting to them that they as Pastors are "not qualified nor have skills to counsel" in these marriage arenas. Many are saying this needs to be special, certified family therapists or whatnot. Is this what some of you are also seeing/hearing? (2) A huge issue I am facing with these men is not only their own sin but sin of their wives in withholding sex for months to YEARS at a time! Is this some sort of common pattern that all of you are seeing, in relation to the Godless appeal to "my body, my choice?" I know the Scriptural answers to these questions but honestly want to see if others are seeing the same problem, especially in their reformed congregations.

I don't want to get into discussion of some recent (is there really anything new under the sun?) false teaching and heresies regarding marriage in some reformed movements and I certainly do not want any discussions of the Andrew Tate variety - why/how such a non-christian wife/girlfriend beater can influence so many church groups (as I have also heard) is beyond me! I do not intend this to be a divisive topic, but an informative one in which all of you can share your experiences in Counseling in these areas.

I am also bringing this topic before my good friends and my Presbytery, but I do enjoy this forum in which I can reach out to the Reformed World in general to hear and gauge responses.

Also, Moderators, if this is the wrong area to post such a topic, please let me know and I will rectify as soon as possible.

May He be Glorified in all of our discussion and sharing of knowledge/experiences

 

[SolaScriptura]

What specifically are you wondering?

 

[mithrandir]

Rev. Bolin,

I'm an ordinary congregant with no training or professional experience in counseling. However, my wife and I have been recipients of counseling. I hope it's not out of order to offer some thoughts from my experience in that position.

I am finding many of their pastors, especially of the non-denominational type, are reporting to them that they as Pastors are "not qualified nor have skills to counsel" in these marriage arenas. Many are saying this needs to be special, certified family therapists or whatnot. Is this what some of you are also seeing/hearing?

I am loathe to speculate about the motivations of men I can only assume are trying faithfully to shepherd God's flock. I will say that I can imagine being nervous to engage in counseling someone in material conflict from a position of authority after the public controversies of other pastors receiving serious criticism for spiritual counsel many view as abusive. One major incident comes to mind that would likely be salient within conservative non-denominational circles. It's sad to say that there may be great perceived risk to entering such situations. It seems much safer to defer to secular professionals and avoid personal liability.

A huge issue I am facing with these men is not only their own sin but sin of their wives in withholding sex for months to YEARS at a time! Is this some sort of common pattern that all of you are seeing, in relation to the Godless appeal to "my body, my choice?" I know the Scriptural answers to these questions but honestly want to see if others are seeing the same problem, especially in their reformed congregations.

I'm going to assume based on recently released statistics that many of the men you are counseling are viewing p0rnography. I would humbly offer from my own experience that I have not always been capable of representing my wife's experience accurately. I hope that, in your counseling, you are able to hear from the affected wives first-hand.

If you would find helpful the perspective of a guy who has received individual and marital counseling in his pursuit of personal holiness, I'd be happy to chat in DMs.

 

[Edward]

many of their pastors, especially of the non-denominational type, are reporting to them that they as Pastors are "not qualified nor have skills to counsel" in these marriage arenas.

Kudos to them for recognizing their limitations.

The three main expectations for man called as a teaching elder (as we label them, and which is somewhat telling) are for him to fill the roles of preacher, pastor, and administrator. Anyone that thinks they are great at all 3 is probably not called at all, but perhaps that for a different discussion. Search committees probably concentrate on the preaching aspect - has anyone ever heard of a search committee saying "he can't preach his way out of a paper bag, but he has a reputation as a great marriage counselor - let's bring him in as the only pastor for our congregation"?

As to the first point:
Maybe it was a shortcoming in their seminary or bible college training. Maybe their gifts don't lie in that direction. Maybe they have been called to preach; and if they had felt called to counsel, their training and career path would have taken a different direction. It takes a bit of humility to say "let me refer you to someone who can do a better job than I can."

 

[davejonescue]

I am loathe to speculate about the motivations of men I can only assume are trying faithfully to shepherd God's flock. I will say that I can imagine being nervous to engage in counseling someone in material conflict from a position of authority after the public controversies of other pastors receiving serious criticism for spiritual counsel many view as abusive. One major incident comes to mind that would likely be salient within conservative non-denominational circles. It's sad to say that there may be great perceived risk to entering such situations. If seems much safer to defer to secular professionals and avoid personal liability.

I can think of Dr. Paige Patterson, and Dr. John D. Street off the top of my head. I believe both received major push back at the height of the #metoo, for not recommending divorce the second a couple got into the harder conflicts a marriage can get involved in like abuse and infidelity. I don't know the details, but it seems SWBTS made Patterson resign, while TMS didn't pay it any mind and Dr. Street still teaches Biblical Counseling there. Again, don't know the in's and out's of these situations, just thinking back to the headlines that were coming out a few years ago.

 

[ZackF]

I’m not a pastor no elder. In these cases, I think wisdom would guide people to be willing to involve those necessary, but no more especially given the subject matter. Such issues that often involve medicine, medical procedures and so forth would obviously need qualified people advising. For sensitivity’s sake and the protection of those involved sometimes require help of those are the same sex of the counseled. I can’t imagine a pastor or elder talking to a female church members about negotiating specific patterns of arousal with her husband for example. Larger churches have the scale and resources to employ and train a staff to address multiple issue. As much as this is not possible anywhere, elders should be supported in obtaining outside help.

 

[MyCrows]

My wife and I had recently read through R.C. Sproul's book "The Intimate Marriage", and I feel like many of the marital issues couples face today would be greatly helped by good, solid preaching on the relationship that men and women are called to in marriage. Passages like 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, Genesis 2, and those are just the ones that come to mind immediately.

I realize R.C. was skilled in the area of marriage counseling as well as preaching, but there are truths in the Word of God that the Lord uses to correct and sanctify his people. Men and women shouldn't have to go to licensed counselors to hear that they are not the masters of their own bodies, but that their spouse has authority over it.

 

[davejonescue]

My wife and I had recently read through R.C. Sproul's book "The Intimate Marriage", and I feel like many of the marital issues couples face today would be greatly helped by good, solid preaching on the relationship that men and women are called to in marriage. Passages like 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, Genesis 2, and those are just the ones that come to mind immediately.

I realize R.C. was skilled in the area of marriage counseling as well as preaching, but there are truths in the Word of God that the Lord uses to correct and sanctify his people. Men and women shouldn't have to go to licensed counselors to hear that they are not the masters of their own bodies, but that their spouse has authority over it.

Yes, but what type of godly man or woman could engage in marital affairs when they know their spouse is seriously not interested? I am sure partners make unbeknownst concessions for their spouses at times. But to (forcefully) engage in conjugal's when you know your spouse is going through something where they are purposely refraining, seems like that would make the whole situation weird and dark. I haven't been married, so I don't know how that works out. I can remember a similar situation when I was in the world, and it causes me great regret when I think about it; how my desires, at the reluctance of my then girlfriend, and the pestering until she gave in, makes me feel like I was reduced to an animal, in that I was not content with her first refusal. Of course it becomes more complicated with prolonged refusal within the context of a marriage. But I dont know how you would go about invoking the "your body is not your own." With this command is there an implication that each spouse be willing, and in such a way that it doesn't cause pause from each other when inclined?

 

[MyCrows]

Yes, but what type of godly man or woman could engage in marital affairs when they know their spouse is seriously not interested? I am sure partners make unbeknownst concessions for their spouses at times. But to (forcefully) engage in conjugal's when you know your spouse is going through something where they are purposely refraining, seems like that would make the whole situation weird and dark. I haven't been married, so I don't know how that works out. I can remember a similar situation when I was in the world, and it causes me great regret when I think about it; how my desires, at the reluctance of my then girlfriend, and the pestering until she gave in, makes me feel like I was reduced to an animal, in that I was not content with her first refusal. Of course it becomes more complicated with prolonged refusal within the context of a marriage. But I dont know how you would go about invoking the "your body is not your own." With this command is there an implication that each spouse be willing, and in such a way that it doesn't cause pause from each other when inclined?

I wouldn't advocate for forcing oneself on their spouse when they are reluctant, but rather that the reluctant spouse/s seek to realize how to honor and love their partner.

Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Wives are called to bear reverence toward their husbands as the church does toward its head, Christ. Ultimately, if we recognize what we are called to as believers, it should move us to reconcile differences with our spouses and draw nearer to them.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Without at this point casting any blame, in a "sexless marriage" - there are definitely some deep seated sinful attitudes and behaviors.

As I tell couples, I'm willing to provide counsel, but I'm not willing to engage in long-term protracted counseling nor will I do "therapy." I'm experienced enough that typically within an hour counseling session I can get an idea of what's going on, I give some homework, etc... and we'll meet again to discuss and to flesh things out. I typically give my biblical prescriptions at the that meeting and will then meet with them a 3rd time. Rarely will I meet with someone for pastoral counseling more than 3x because at that point they're looking for a long-term counselor or therapist and I am way too busy and it wouldn't be a wise use of my time and energies for either them or me.

 

[ZackF]

Without at this point casting any blame, in a "sexless marriage" - there are definitely some deep seated sinful attitudes and behaviors.

As I tell couples, I'm willing to provide counsel, but I'm not willing to engage in long-term protracted counseling nor will I do "therapy." I'm experienced enough that typically within an hour counseling session I can get an idea of what's going on, I give some homework, etc... and we'll meet again to discuss and to flesh things out. I typically give my biblical prescriptions at the that meeting and will then meet with them a 3rd time. Rarely will I meet with someone for pastoral counseling more than 3x because at that point they're looking for a long-term counselor or therapist and I am way too busy and it wouldn't be a wise use of my time and energies for either them or me.

This seems reasonable. Thats why I am not as tough on 12 step groups for situations like alcoholism with the appropriate caveats and oversight. Some people need long-term daily contact with accountability. Four or five people needing that level of attention can bury a pastor, session and diaconate.

On other matters having go-to people, inside and outside of the church, frees the pastor from having to fix everyone that may require longer term care.

 

[Rev Bolin]

Without at this point casting any blame, in a "sexless marriage" - there are definitely some deep seated sinful attitudes and behaviors.

As I tell couples, I'm willing to provide counsel, but I'm not willing to engage in long-term protracted counseling nor will I do "therapy." I'm experienced enough that typically within an hour counseling session I can get an idea of what's going on, I give some homework, etc... and we'll meet again to discuss and to flesh things out. I typically give my biblical prescriptions at the that meeting and will then meet with them a 3rd time. Rarely will I meet with someone for pastoral counseling more than 3x because at that point they're looking for a long-term counselor or therapist and I am way too busy and it wouldn't be a wise use of my time and energies for either them or me.

Thanks to all of you for your responses. I do like the idea of setting limits. I have often told people that Biblical counseling is not "therapy" and in many cases I have set limits to expectations.

My wife and I had recently read through R.C. Sproul's book "The Intimate Marriage", and I feel like many of the marital issues couples face today would be greatly helped by good, solid preaching on the relationship that men and women are called to in marriage. Passages like 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, Genesis 2, and those are just the ones that come to mind immediately.

I realize R.C. was skilled in the area of marriage counseling as well as preaching, but there are truths in the Word of God that the Lord uses to correct and sanctify his people. Men and women shouldn't have to go to licensed counselors to hear that they are not the masters of their own bodies, but that their spouse has authority over it.

I will have to read this work. I never knew he wrote something like this.

 

[ArminianOnceWas]

I can think of Dr. Paige Patterson, and Dr. John D. Street off the top of my head. I believe both received major push back at the height of the #metoo, for not recommending divorce the second a couple got into the harder conflicts a marriage can get involved in like abuse and infidelity. I don't know the details, but it seems SWBTS made Patterson resign, while TMS didn't pay it any mind and Dr. Street still teaches Biblical Counseling there. Again, don't know the in's and out's of these situations, just thinking back to the headlines that were coming out a few years ago.

I believe that reducing Patterson's issues to "not recommending divorce the second a couple got into the harder conflicts a marriage" is harshly ignorant and even foolish to promulgate.