R
Request-Deleted member 11775
Guest
The long answer is given above from AA Hodge, the shorter answer is that it's a turning to Him that's done in faith.
Which Puritan writings should we avoid?
- Thread starter alexanderjames
- Start date
- Status
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
Ok, Ok, here's a shorter version with a Biblical of definition of Repentance by me.
The very definition of Repentance in the Bible is "a turning to God" through faith granted to a sinner by grace alone. Anything short of that, by whatever name, is not Repentance.
Q. 87. What is repentance unto life?
A. Repentance unto life is a saving grace, whereby a sinner, out of a true sense of his sin, and apprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, doth, with grief and hatred of his sin, turn from it unto God, with full purpose of, and endeavour after, new obedience.
Charles Johnson
Puritan Board Junior
I agree with everything Hodge says.
But if repentance is turning to God (or Christ, as it were), then it seems perfectly fine to me to say we repent in order to come to Christ, unless one wants to put a difference between turning to Christ and coming to Christ, which strikes me as splitting hairs.
But if repentance is turning to God (or Christ, as it were), then it seems perfectly fine to me to say we repent in order to come to Christ, unless one wants to put a difference between turning to Christ and coming to Christ, which strikes me as splitting hairs.
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Junior
from https://www.monergism.com/topics/repentance
Regeneration > Faith > Repentance
Repentance is not forsaking sin that you may turn to Christ, it is turning to Christ that you might forsake sin.
Is repentance necessary for salvation?
It depends on what you mean by repentance.
If you mean 1) that you must stop sinning before coming to Christ then obviously no. But if you mean 2) knowing you cannot save yourself, by grace, you turn from your sin and self-righteousness to trust in Christ alone to deliver you from it, then yes, it is necessary. No one can come to Christ unless they come to Him as the Savior from sin.
Regeneration > Faith > Repentance
Repentance is not forsaking sin that you may turn to Christ, it is turning to Christ that you might forsake sin.
Is repentance necessary for salvation?
It depends on what you mean by repentance.
If you mean 1) that you must stop sinning before coming to Christ then obviously no. But if you mean 2) knowing you cannot save yourself, by grace, you turn from your sin and self-righteousness to trust in Christ alone to deliver you from it, then yes, it is necessary. No one can come to Christ unless they come to Him as the Savior from sin.
R
Request-Deleted member 11775
Guest
If repenting is in order to come to Christ then repenting can’t be the coming to Christ itself. At any rate, the marrow doctrine was simply that faith precedes repentance, and that Christ gives repentance, the point being that sinners musn’t think they need first repent on their own somehow before having a warrant to believe in Christ.
Charles Johnson
Puritan Board Junior
Is this actually true though? Or to state it more generally, is the statement "If x is in order to y, then x cannot be y" true?
I don't think it is. For example, I drive my car in order to go to Church, but driving my car and going to Church are one and the same act.
I have no qualms with the idea that faith precedes evangelical repentance, although I think it was Van Mastricht that pointed out that repentance is often placed before faith in the bible ("repent and believe") because, in our experience of conversion, we are aware of one before the other. In my experience of conversion, I first abandon the world and then I know I have come to Christ, although, as you noted, in the order of causes faith was actually first.
R
Request-Deleted member 11775
Guest
Yes I see your point, I’m not entirely sure but I suppose the phrase “in order to” may sometimes be ambiguous so that it could be possible that where one does x in order to y, x and y are the same thing in a way.
But leaving that to one side, I think in one’s experience one comes to Christ through the free offer of the gospel, which is not, “abandon the world and then you may come to Christ”, as if you need to improve yourself first to be qualified to come to Christ. Then one would never come to Christ because he’s not made himself good enough yet or abandoned the world enough yet! The marrow men were trying to find a middle path between legalism on the one side, and antinomianism on the other, while avoiding the pitfall of neonomianism too.
Last edited by a moderator:
MyCrows
Puritan Board Sophomore
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44
If the drawing by the Father is regeneration, which grants the sinner sight to see his spiritual condition, and his need for Christ, wouldn't that be an example of repentance being first in the logical order?
John 6:44
If the drawing by the Father is regeneration, which grants the sinner sight to see his spiritual condition, and his need for Christ, wouldn't that be an example of repentance being first in the logical order?
R
Request-Deleted member 11775
Guest
It would still fit in with the logical order regeneration > faith > repentance. Often in experience one might first be more sensible of their repentance than of their faith, and by their repentance see the evidence of their faith. The command to repent also brings one to see their need of being united to Christ by faith, because otherwise they will never be able to repent. One thing highlighted is that it’s not only justification that is by faith in Christ, but sanctification is by faith too, although not in a way of imputation. The sinner should not go to Christ for justification and then to Sinai for sanctification, but faith draws strength from Christ for dying unto sin and living unto righteousness.
Last edited by a moderator:
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
Dare I ask about another charge sometimes laid against Puritan works?.. excessive introspection.
Example - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/beware-the-puritan-paralysis/
Response by Jeremy Walker in Reformation21 - https://www.reformation21.org/blogs/are-you-too-introspective.php
This charge has probably been sufficiently handled in older threads, such as this one - https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/the-proper-use-of-despair.96617/
However, do you think there are any works which might need a warning for readers for this danger of what's commonly called "morbid introspection"?
N.B. The broader question remains open for particular authors or works that you believe should come with caution for any other reasons.
Example - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevin-wax/beware-the-puritan-paralysis/
Response by Jeremy Walker in Reformation21 - https://www.reformation21.org/blogs/are-you-too-introspective.php
This charge has probably been sufficiently handled in older threads, such as this one - https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/the-proper-use-of-despair.96617/
However, do you think there are any works which might need a warning for readers for this danger of what's commonly called "morbid introspection"?
N.B. The broader question remains open for particular authors or works that you believe should come with caution for any other reasons.
Last edited:
R
Request-Deleted member 11775
Guest
None spring to mind, but I suppose some could be a bit more introspective perhaps just due to their own personality/situation in life.
However, I do remember hearing a story about an elderly brother and sister who lived together somewhere in the Highlands of Scotland, who felt that they would be happy if they had even just the marks of Matthew Mead's Almost Christian! Probably some things that seem a bit high in the writings of the puritans need to be balanced with what they've written else where about the struggles of gracious souls.
But I think one of the strengths of the Puritans is that they had a healthy discrimination between things like true assurance vs presumption, as most helpfully outlined here by Anthony Burgess:
True Assurance vs Presumption
Spiritual Refining: A Treatise of Grace and Assurance, Sermon 6, by Anthony Burgess “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how th…
purelypresbyterian.com
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
Thank you for sharing this, I will be looking into Burgess' treatise for sure.But I think one of the strengths of the Puritans is that they had a healthy discrimination between things like true assurance vs presumption, as most helpfully outlined here by Anthony Burgess:
True Assurance vs Presumption
Spiritual Refining: A Treatise of Grace and Assurance, Sermon 6, by Anthony Burgess “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how th…
When looking for resources some time ago on this subject of real assurance vs presumption of faith (following a reading of Numbers 14:44) I couldn't find anything from recent evangelicalism on the matter.
davejonescue
Puritan Board Junior
III. Let all be exhorted to entertain a holy fear of God, together with a holy hope for his mercy. Mix these, and balance your souls with them, whatever your case be. While you are going through the world, keep your course in the middle between the two rocks of presumption and despair.—For this purpose,
1. Beware of desponding or despairing of the mercy of God in Christ. There is an allowable despair, which all ought to entertain, in order to their getting their hope fixed on God, namely, a quitting of all hope in our own sufficiency, or ability to make ourselves happy by ourselves, or that ever we shall be well, while we continue in a state of black nature. But what we call despair is a giving over all hope in God, which is a horrible sin. There is a threefold despair you should beware of, as you would not ruin your own souls.
(1.) A sensual despair, which arises from an excessive love of the profits and pleasures of this world, with a secure contempt of spiritual and external good in another world, 1 Corinthians 15:32, "Let us," say they, "eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Alas! how many are there plagued with this? their souls are festered with the desire of present good, which is their all, and, having no hope of better after this life, they give the swing to their lusts after these.
(2.) A sluggish despair, Proverbs 22:13, "The slothful man says, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets." Their sloth musters up difficulties to them, forming some that are groundless, imaginary ones, and aggravating real ones, so that they conclude beforehand that they will not be better, their endeavors will not succeed, and therefore they lie still, and will do nothing for their own help; this ruins many.
(3.) A sorrowful despair, which arises from strong fears, which raise such a mist in the soul, that grounds of hope in its case, are hidden out of sight, and they are in their soul's case as in Acts 27:20, neither sun nor stars for many days appear, no small tempest lies on them, and all hope that they shall be saved is then taken away. There are different degrees of this; sometimes it is silent and sullen, making little noise, but is smothered in one's breast like a burning fire. In such a case, one would do well to give it a vent before God, his servants, or godly experienced Christians, lest it ruin them. This is the way David took when in such a case, Psalm 39:2–4, "I was dumb with silence, I held my peace even from good, and my sorrow was stirred; my heart was hot within me; while I was musing, the fire burned, then spoke I with my tongue, Lord, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is, that I may know how frail I am." Sometimes it is raging as in Judas, who, under horror laid upon his sin, did miserably end his life.
Beware of all these, and resist the beginnings of despair, and if it has fastened on any soul, let them strive to quench it, as they would do a fire. The former makes way for the latter, and altogether makes way for remediless despair in Hell. I shall only say two things of it.
(1.) It is defiling, and makes the soul most loathsome before God; for it conceives most basely and abominably of God and Christ, directly opposing itself to the grand design of the gospel; it blasphemes the power of God, and the efficacy of his Son's blood and Spirit.
(2.) It is ruining, for it makes the sinner flee from God, and cast away the means of recovery, and so ensures their destruction; besides that it often drives the sinner to put an end to his torment here, by leaping into endless torments before the time, as in the case of Judas. And while we see how Satan is ready to take advantage, we had need to take heed.
2. Beware of presumption. Take heed that you do not flee from the one rock to dash on the other. Indeed, despair is tormenting, while presumption is easy. Nevertheless, though none of them is good, yet a person presuming is ordinarily in greater hazard than one despairing; for the presumptuous sees not his case as the other does: the one is well pleased with his damnable condition, the other is weary of his, and wishes to have it changed; so that many more perish by the one than by the other.
To conclude: Remember, on the one hand, God is a holy jealous God, who cannot away with sin, or a state of sin, but the fire of his jealousy burns against it. On the other hand, remember that the blood of Christ takes away all guilt, his Spirit overcomes the most hopeless case, and his mercy reaches wide for every condition. Fear him, you that hope in him; hope in his mercy, you that fear him; for "the Lord takes pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy." Amen.
Fear and Hope, Objects of the Divine Delight - Thomas Boston
1. Beware of desponding or despairing of the mercy of God in Christ. There is an allowable despair, which all ought to entertain, in order to their getting their hope fixed on God, namely, a quitting of all hope in our own sufficiency, or ability to make ourselves happy by ourselves, or that ever we shall be well, while we continue in a state of black nature. But what we call despair is a giving over all hope in God, which is a horrible sin. There is a threefold despair you should beware of, as you would not ruin your own souls.
(1.) A sensual despair, which arises from an excessive love of the profits and pleasures of this world, with a secure contempt of spiritual and external good in another world, 1 Corinthians 15:32, "Let us," say they, "eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." Alas! how many are there plagued with this? their souls are festered with the desire of present good, which is their all, and, having no hope of better after this life, they give the swing to their lusts after these.
(2.) A sluggish despair, Proverbs 22:13, "The slothful man says, There is a lion without, I shall be slain in the streets." Their sloth musters up difficulties to them, forming some that are groundless, imaginary ones, and aggravating real ones, so that they conclude beforehand that they will not be better, their endeavors will not succeed, and therefore they lie still, and will do nothing for their own help; this ruins many.
(3.) A sorrowful despair, which arises from strong fears, which raise such a mist in the soul, that grounds of hope in its case, are hidden out of sight, and they are in their soul's case as in Acts 27:20, neither sun nor stars for many days appear, no small tempest lies on them, and all hope that they shall be saved is then taken away. There are different degrees of this; sometimes it is silent and sullen, making little noise, but is smothered in one's breast like a burning fire. In such a case, one would do well to give it a vent before God, his servants, or godly experienced Christians, lest it ruin them. This is the way David took when in such a case, Psalm 39:2–4, "I was dumb with silence, I held my peace even from good, and my sorrow was stirred; my heart was hot within me; while I was musing, the fire burned, then spoke I with my tongue, Lord, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is, that I may know how frail I am." Sometimes it is raging as in Judas, who, under horror laid upon his sin, did miserably end his life.
Beware of all these, and resist the beginnings of despair, and if it has fastened on any soul, let them strive to quench it, as they would do a fire. The former makes way for the latter, and altogether makes way for remediless despair in Hell. I shall only say two things of it.
(1.) It is defiling, and makes the soul most loathsome before God; for it conceives most basely and abominably of God and Christ, directly opposing itself to the grand design of the gospel; it blasphemes the power of God, and the efficacy of his Son's blood and Spirit.
(2.) It is ruining, for it makes the sinner flee from God, and cast away the means of recovery, and so ensures their destruction; besides that it often drives the sinner to put an end to his torment here, by leaping into endless torments before the time, as in the case of Judas. And while we see how Satan is ready to take advantage, we had need to take heed.
2. Beware of presumption. Take heed that you do not flee from the one rock to dash on the other. Indeed, despair is tormenting, while presumption is easy. Nevertheless, though none of them is good, yet a person presuming is ordinarily in greater hazard than one despairing; for the presumptuous sees not his case as the other does: the one is well pleased with his damnable condition, the other is weary of his, and wishes to have it changed; so that many more perish by the one than by the other.
To conclude: Remember, on the one hand, God is a holy jealous God, who cannot away with sin, or a state of sin, but the fire of his jealousy burns against it. On the other hand, remember that the blood of Christ takes away all guilt, his Spirit overcomes the most hopeless case, and his mercy reaches wide for every condition. Fear him, you that hope in him; hope in his mercy, you that fear him; for "the Lord takes pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy." Amen.
Fear and Hope, Objects of the Divine Delight - Thomas Boston
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Junior
Why use that verse regarding this topic?
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
Because it was about a sinful presuming upon the Lord by the Israelites which was got me thinking more about the topic more broadly.
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Junior
How would you formulate this historical prohibition into a principle for sinners today?
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Junior
What would then be the safeguard for true believers to not liken themselves to the Israelites here. And what would be the 'change', which is required from those who indeed have presumed, derived from this text?
The narrative to me is a historical physical barring for a select group of people who know they have been barred from entering. There is no hope for their desired hope.
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
Well, I'm still working on that!
But clearly in the specific context of this verse from Numbers it's obvious that there was initially unbelief and cowardice in the Israelites not going to take possession of the land when the Lord commanded it, followed by the sinful presumption that they would be able to take possession when going against the Lord's direct command which followed.
Looking at the examples of professing believers in history, there is often action taken up which has no warrant from God's commandments, yet it is done in His Name. I see in myself the frequent temptations to put on the blinders or raise up the barricades in my own heart (so to speak) against sincere, patient, prayerful consideration of how the word of God applies to my circumstances in an attempt to justify actions that may not be pleasing to Him. The heart is deceitful and desperately sick. So I see real danger in sinful presumption vs genuine faith here.
Further, as the Puritans were particularly concerned about, this trait of false presumption is seen in the false professors who do not inherit salvation (e.g. among others, Anthony Burgess' work mentioned, Thomas Shepard on the parable of the 10 virgins, etc.). I want to make sure I'm numbered among the elect, and not among those wicked servants cast into outer darkness.
Last edited:
MyCrows
Puritan Board Sophomore
Well the change would be humbling themselves in repentance after the temporal judgment of getting clobbered by the Amakelites.
Moses was also not permitted to enter the promised land. He didn't presume upon God's grace and barge in, he asked the Lord concerning the matter. Eventually the Lord told him not to inquire again.
I agree that's its a story in history about a physical restraint from entering into the promised land, I'm just saying there is something to be learned here.
1 Corinthians 10:6-11
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Junior
Both were clearly told they were barred from entering. I don’t see how that can teach a sinner regarding their faith or presumed faith.
It seems the analogy you are looking for is : do not take what God has not promised for you. But there was a permanent barring here in Numbers. Whereas the sinner today has the opportunity to kill his false presumption and seek the true way.
Things like the bronze serpent and Christ lifted up have clear analogies. Analogies that I sorry just don’t see in the Num 14 passage. My questions in the previous post remains.
In light of the lack of clarity I really don’t think it should be used in an assurance of salvation context. There are better and clearer examples from Scripture for this tender issue.
MyCrows
Puritan Board Sophomore
I was only answering this question specifically, not necessarily in the context of true faith/presumed faith. Sorry if I'm not making sense. I wasn't making an analogy to the presence or lack of saving faith. Yes i agree there are much better places to look.
Polanus1561
Puritan Board Junior
Got it.
Anyway, Heb 4. points to Num 14 (lack of faith at the good report) being used for warning us against an unbelieving superficial faith that is revealed to be useless.
But that is different from the Num 14.44 presumption. The analogy I can think of is someone already condemned (the Israelites here) in hell but wanting to go to heaven (the Promised Land). Again, I am willing to be corrected on this. I love a good OT analogy!
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
Yes to clarify, I was merely saying that this passage from Numbers is something that prompted my desire for further study on the topic of sinful presumption vs genuine faith more broadly.
alexanderjames
Puritan Board Sophomore
However, I would push back softly on the idea that the presumption in this context would be an analogy as those already condemned in hell.
As the visible church we are all sojourners called to enter the promised land of eternal life. We must go about this in the way God has prescribed in His word, and not presume to enter into life by another way He has not prescribed, especially by what He has expressly prohibited. This reminds me passages like John 10:1 and Matthew 22:12.
Here is how I see it instead..
As the visible church we are all sojourners called to enter the promised land of eternal life. We must go about this in the way God has prescribed in His word, and not presume to enter into life by another way He has not prescribed, especially by what He has expressly prohibited. This reminds me passages like John 10:1 and Matthew 22:12.
Last edited:
arapahoepark
Puritan Board Professor
greenbaggins
Puritan Board Doctor
Only a person who is united to Christ by faith can repent. The Marrow men were entirely correct, and their critics were entirely wrong. Repentance is always unto God. That does not mean that repentance is unto union with Christ by faith. Question 87 of the WSC comes after question 86.
Charles Johnson
Puritan Board Junior
Have you read their critics?
Hadow, A Snake in the Grass, etc?
greenbaggins
Puritan Board Doctor
I have not. But I trust that Ferguson has, even if he has not mentioned them all by name. I trust Thomas Boston and the Erskine brothers miles and leagues beyond a guy I've never even heard of before in Hadow. Besides, the criticism "your position is shaky because you haven't read x" is itself a rather shaky criticism.
Charles Johnson
Puritan Board Junior
Not only has he not mentioned "all of them by name", he hasn't footnoted any of them, and it shows, because I've compared Ferguson's assertions on their teaching to their actual teaching, and there are significant differences. As to whether you've heard of Hadow, how is that relevant? I'm sure plenty of people haven't heard of Lane Keister, but that doesn't make you any less reliable, does it?
It's frankly bewildering to see so many people making dogmatic statements about writers they've never read.
Hadow's sermon, which comprised the opening volley of the marrow controversy, is to be found here. His other work, The Antinomianism of the Marrow of Modern Divinity detected, is harder to come by.
- Status
Similar threads
