Roman Catholic Exorcism

Status
Not open for further replies.
JesusIsLord

JesusIsLord

Puritan Board Freshman
Hello everyone, I have been seeing a lot lately regarding the newest documentary by the creator of “the exorcist”.

His new Doc is about Father Amorth, the foremost Vatican exorcist. They claim to have recorded a real exorcism but I was interested in asking here on PB about demonic forces and exorcisms.

Are excorsisms nowadays real? What did the puritans think about demon possession?

Why or why not? Our Lord and the apostles obviously dealt with this such thing but can we say that this type of activity (possession) has ended? Ive really not thought throuhg this so I am just asking. Thanks for the help
 
Oh my my. To think, as many do, that evil spirits invade people in the way most think, ought to be exercised from such thinking.
 
earl40 said:
Oh my my. To think, as many do, that evil spirits invade people in the way most think, ought to be exercised from such thinking.
Click to expand...

I know you and I have disagreed on this, but I don't necessarily disagree with that statement. Most of what modern Christians think about "demons" comes from Milton and Dante, and so it is wrong. If that is what people think "enter" a person, then no, that doesn't happen.

If, per the NT, what enters is something like a kakos or an akathartos, then yes we have to affirm it.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
I know you and I have disagreed on this, but I don't necessarily disagree with that statement. Most of what modern Christians think about "demons" comes from Milton and Dante, and so it is wrong. If that is what people think "enter" a person, then no, that doesn't happen.

If, per the NT, what enters is something like a kakos or an akathartos, then yes we have to affirm it.
Click to expand...

I strongly suspect we can not agree, even with your qualification, which I suspect is...dare I say probably superstitious. Sorry if this sounds uncharitable but this is how I see it. :)
 
JesusIsLord said:
Hello everyone, I have been seeing a lot lately regarding the newest documentary by the creator of “the exorcist”.

His new Doc is about Father Amorth, the foremost Vatican exorcist. They claim to have recorded a real exorcism but I was interested in asking here on PB about demonic forces and exorcisms.

Are excorsisms nowadays real? What did the puritans think about demon possession?

Why or why not? Our Lord and the apostles obviously dealt with this such thing but can we say that this type of activity (possession) has ended? Ive really not thought throuhg this so I am just asking. Thanks for the help
Click to expand...
Demonic possession was evident in the Bible, especially at the time of our Lord Jesus being here upon the earth, and I wonder at times just how much of what has been classified as strictly mental illness, split personalities, might in fact really be demonic influences going on.
Not saying that all or even most mental illness could be caused by that, but some could be, as the unsaved party when using drugs/alcohol, and in false religions could be open to having demonic force attacking and attaching themselves to that party.
My senior pastor is a very godly and mature pastor, and he had years ago an experienced dealing with a possession situation, and while the person was delivered and saved afterwards, something that he does not speak much upon nor seeks out to do again.
 
Dachaser said:
Demonic possession was evident in the Bible, especially at the time of our Lord Jesus being here upon the earth, and I wonder at times just how much of what has been classified as strictly mental illness, split personalities, might in fact really be demonic influences going on.
Click to expand...

I would say mental illness, split personalities and such were evident in the bible, and many misclassify such as the some type of evil spirit having a direct influence on people. Just because there was not an official word or classification to label such problems does not mean people back then did not know exactly that such people who manifested such bad behavior were simply "crazy".
 
earl40 said:
I would say mental illness, split personalities and such were evident in the bible, and many misclassify such as the some type of evil spirit having a direct influence on people. Just because there was not an official word or classification to label such problems does not mean people back then did not know exactly that such people who manifested such bad behavior were simply "crazy".
Click to expand...
The people that the scriptures plainly stated were demon possessed all were, correct?
 
earl40 said:
Oh my my. To think, as many do, that evil spirits invade people in the way most think, ought to be exercised from such thinking.
Click to expand...
You do not believe that Demons can influence and even do possession of those who are not saved?
 
My take on it is, that Christ has bound the strong man and his house, and spoiled his goods. That Satan’s power is not what it was. The atonement has destroyed the works of the devil, and wherever Christianity has been planted and established, there demonic influence is subdued. But missionaries who go out to evangelise the regions beyond may encounter such remaining darkness. It is obvious that those practitioners of exorcism nowadays, use different means than our Lord. He did it merely by the word of His power; they with the forcible laying on of hands and a great deal of energetic shouting the name of Jesus; or with bells , candles and the signing of a cross, and a Latin imprecation. I think one has to be careful in bringing illnesses into this sphere as it can give sensitive souls doubts and fears concerning their state.
 
Cymro said:
My take on it is, that Christ has bound the strong man and his house, and spoiled his goods. That Satan’s power is not what it was. The atonement has destroyed the works of the devil, and wherever Christianity has been planted and established, there demonic influence is subdued. But missionaries who go out to evangelise the regions beyond may encounter such remaining darkness. It is obvious that those practitioners of exorcism nowadays, use different means than our Lord. He did it merely by the word of His power; they with the forcible laying on of hands and a great deal of energetic shouting the name of Jesus; or with bells , candles and the signing of a cross, and a Latin imprecation. I think one has to be careful in bringing illnesses into this sphere as it can give sensitive souls doubts and fears concerning their state.
Click to expand...
Those who are saved and now indwelt by the Holy Spirit can never be possessed as such, but if we choose to do things that can open up a way to us from Satanic forces, God will permit them to influence us and cause problems.
Those who are lost are still under the dominion and kingdom of satan now.
 
earl40 said:
Not wanting to succumb to a million questions on this subject I suggest all read this thread concerning the OP post. Especially Pastor Winzers advice. :)


https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/ufos-ghosts-and-the-occult-demonic-experiences.91634/
Click to expand...

Winzer didn't deal with the totality of biblical data, nor does his argument stand logical scrutiny. He said that demons are just dead idols. But if we take that line of reasoning and apply it to the gospels, it didn't work. Did Jesus simply cast out seven dead idols from Mary Magdelene?

Winzer is correct that what we call demons isn't entirely accurate. But he doesn't deal with the scholarship on the subject. Hebrew and Ugaritic scholar Michael Heiser, pretty much along with all standard critical scholarsip, has noted that the Bible uses a number of terms for very different entitites:

1. Rephaim.
2. Thrones
3. Powers
4. Principalities
5. Rulers in high places

He also came very close to implying, though if I recall correctly when I challenged him on this he didn't give a direct answer, that it was just the belief in demons that made the demonized suffer. This is ironic, given his conservatism, because that view is Liberalism 101.

My own take, following the Gospel data and the arguments in Jude and 2 Peter:

1. Demons are similar to cthonic forces and they are unclean spirits.
2. What we call fallen angels (which is a bad term) are those angels who wanted to mate with human women in Genesis 6, Jude, and 2 Peter 2. God is keeping them in eternal chains in gloomy darkness until that great day.
3. Therefore, demons =/= fallen angels.
4. Further, the Archangel Michael was hesitant to rebuke Satan, yet the disciples rebuke demons. So they can't be of the same class.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Winzer didn't deal with the totality of biblical data, nor does his argument stand logical scrutiny. He said that demons are just dead idols. But if we take that line of reasoning and apply it to the gospels, it didn't work. Did Jesus simply cast out seven dead idols from Mary Magdelene?.
Click to expand...

The word of the day is.....nominalism. This word explains your disagreement with Pastor Winzer.



BayouHuguenot said:
He also came very close to implying, though if I recall correctly when I challenged him on this he didn't give a direct answer, that it was just the belief in demons that made the demonized suffer. This is ironic, given his conservatism, because that view is Liberalism 101.
Click to expand...

Hardly a lib Winzer is in this area. :) I understand where you are coming from as well as the most of people who are Christian.

BayouHuguenot said:
My own take, following the Gospel data and the arguments in Jude and 2 Peter:

1. Demons are similar to cthonic forces and they are unclean spirits.
2. What we call fallen angels (which is a bad term) are those angels who wanted to mate with human women in Genesis 6, Jude, and 2 Peter 2. God is keeping them in eternal chains in gloomy darkness until that great day.
3. Therefore, demons =/= fallen angels.
4. Further, the Archangel Michael was hesitant to rebuke Satan, yet the disciples rebuke demons. So they can't be of the same class.
Click to expand...

This ought to be enough evidence for most Christians to flee from such thinking.
 
earl40 said:
The word of the day is.....nominalism. This word explains your disagreement with Pastor Winzer.
Click to expand...

Never mind that is not what the word nominalism means in any of its uses. So perhaps you would like to tell us what he means by that.
earl40 said:
This ought to be enough evidence for most Christians to flee from such thinking.
Click to expand...

What does "this" refer to? My taxonomy? If my taxonomy is faulty then you need to show me where. I am getting my data from the Scriptures. Should we flee the Scriptures? Or the claim that....what exactly?
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Winzer didn't deal with the totality of biblical data, nor does his argument stand logical scrutiny. He said that demons are just dead idols. But if we take that line of reasoning and apply it to the gospels, it didn't work. Did Jesus simply cast out seven dead idols from Mary Magdelene?

Winzer is correct that what we call demons isn't entirely accurate. But he doesn't deal with the scholarship on the subject. Hebrew and Ugaritic scholar Michael Heiser, pretty much along with all standard critical scholarsip, has noted that the Bible uses a number of terms for very different entitites:

1. Rephaim.
2. Thrones
3. Powers
4. Principalities
5. Rulers in high places

He also came very close to implying, though if I recall correctly when I challenged him on this he didn't give a direct answer, that it was just the belief in demons that made the demonized suffer. This is ironic, given his conservatism, because that view is Liberalism 101.

My own take, following the Gospel data and the arguments in Jude and 2 Peter:

1. Demons are similar to cthonic forces and they are unclean spirits.
2. What we call fallen angels (which is a bad term) are those angels who wanted to mate with human women in Genesis 6, Jude, and 2 Peter 2. God is keeping them in eternal chains in gloomy darkness until that great day.
3. Therefore, demons =/= fallen angels.
4. Further, the Archangel Michael was hesitant to rebuke Satan, yet the disciples rebuke demons. So they can't be of the same class.
Click to expand...
Is he not supporting then Accommodation, in that Jesus knew that he was dealing with mere superstition of the time, and was just using a show to deliver people from mental illness problems?
Jesus talked to a literal Satan in wilderness, and the scriptures say that Judas was possessed by Satan Himself, so how can one hold to inspiration and infallibility of the Bible and hold to such beliefs as those of mistaken identification of demons?
 
earl40 said:
The word of the day is.....nominalism. This word explains your disagreement with Pastor Winzer.





Hardly a lib Winzer is in this area. :) I understand where you are coming from as well as the most of people who are Christian.



This ought to be enough evidence for most Christians to flee from such thinking.
Click to expand...
The scriptures clearly teach that Jesus cast out real demons from possessed people, as a sign that the Kingdom of God in His person had now arrived, so what was he casting out?
 
I just got finished r
Dachaser said:
Is he not supporting then Accommodation, in that Jesus knew that he was dealing with mere superstition of the time, and was just using a show to deliver people from mental illness problems?
Jesus talked to a literal Satan in wilderness, and the scriptures say that Judas was possessed by Satan Himself, so how can one hold to inspiration and infallibility of the Bible and hold to such beliefs as those of mistaken identification of demons?
Click to expand...

That's what it seems he is saying. Of course, the text says no such thing and such a view can only be read into it. Basically, Jesus knew the ancient world was too stupid to realize it was only phobias and psychoses.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
I just got finished r


That's what it seems he is saying. Of course, the text says no such thing and such a view can only be read into it. Basically, Jesus knew the ancient world was too stupid to realize it was only phobias and psychoses.
Click to expand...
or that Jesus bought into their superstition and honestly was wrong on demons? That is a heretical view on Jesus.
 
earl40 said:
Oh my my. To think, as many do, that evil spirits invade people in the way most think, ought to be exercised from such thinking.
Click to expand...

Earl,
You must be possessed with the skeptic spirit. This particular spirit is only sent away by sipping Woodford Reserve Bourbon and smoking a Romeo y Juliet cigar, chanting"whhhhhhhaaaazzzzuuup", all while patting you on the back. This may go on for several days and should be done on a pontoon boat. Jacob and I will be down for the weekend to perform this exorcism. Prepare yourself......

@BayouHuguenot
 
Last edited:
Gforce9 said:
Earl,
You must be possessed with the skeptic spirit. This particular spirit is only sent away by sipping Woodford Reserve Bourbon and smoking a Romeo y Juliet cigar, chanting"whhhhhhhaaaazzzzuuup", all while patting you on the back. This may go on for several days and should be done on a pontoon boat. Jacob and I will be down for the weekend to perform this exorcism. Prepare yourself......

@BayouHuguenot
Click to expand...
If Earl's not interested, I'll take his cigar and bourbon.
 
I drink either red wine or Yeunglings (MAGA).

Back to the OP. I did some notes on biblical demonology (this is just scratching the surface).

  1. Why is Satan called the prince of the powers of the air (Eph. 2:2) if he is locked underground?
  2. If all the demons are in hell, then why do we wrestle against principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph. 6)?
  3. If Ha Shatan is locked underground, then how did he appear before God in Job?
  4. If all the demons are in hell, then how did they possess people in the NT?
  5. Yet Peter says some were thrust into Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4).
  6. Why does Peter use the word Tartarus when he could have simply said hell or hades?
  7. Was the spirit in 1 Kings 22:19-23 good or bad? If he was good, then was God commanding him to lie? If he was bad, then why was he in heaven?
  8. Is God the only kind of Elohim? You have to say no, because God (singular Elohim) is often speaking to plural Elohim, and even if the latter are just men, they aren’t the kind of Elohim that Yahweh is.
 
Two quotes from Rev. Winzer from the thread Earl linked to:

“The Jewish and Graeco-Roman cultures had very distinct notions of these things. Christ and His apostles only associated them with the work of Satan and his messengers.”

“Satan at that time exercised a specific adversarial role among the visible covenant nation, especially as it related to Messiah. The demonic power was part of the darkness in which the people sat before they would see the great light of Messiah, and when the great light shone the darkness was dispelled, which created these unique interactions "in the flesh," in the "rudiments of the world." It was unique and unparallelled because it was an extraordinary meeting point in history. I do not expect to see it again. I certainly would not use modern claims to demonic possession as any indication of what was happening in the narratives.

“In hindsight, and with the full revelation of Scripture, we understand that these "demons" were in fact "devils," operating under the agency of Satan, but we must not assume the people thought in this way. It is likely that they held very confused ideas about "demons"...”

I had a hard time grasping what Reverend Winzer was saying at the time of that conversation, but I think these quotes from him show that he believed that Christ and the apostles truly dealt with “Satan and his messengers.” Rev. Winzer preferred to call those messengers “devils,” following the KJV, since there was and is such misinformation about what a “daemon” meant to the people in NT times, as well as what it means to people today.

He believed the encounters with those devils in Scripture were “unique and unparallelled because it was an extraordinary meeting point in history.”
I tend to agree, and believe that Christ’s victory on the cross was such a decisive victory blow to Satan that the activity as recorded in the gospels and Acts is over. Not to say that Satan isn’t still on the prowl and dangerous, and we must resist him in just the ways taught in the epistles.
 
Jeri Tanner said:
Rev. Winzer preferred to call those messengers “devils,” following the KJV, since there was and is such misinformation about what a “daemon” meant to the people in NT times, as well as what it means to people today.
Click to expand...

I've already dealt with the ambiguous terminology in Scripture. True, daimion meant something different in Plato, but it's clear that by the time of Scripture the meaning changed. To collapse the latter meaning into the former is the word = concept fallacy.
Jeri Tanner said:
He believed the encounters with those devils in Scripture were “unique and unparallelled because it was an extraordinary meeting point in history.”
Click to expand...

Scriptural evidence that it stopped?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

A
  • Locked
Presbyterians Turning Roman Catholic
2 3
Replies
72
Views
15K
BJClark
B
RamistThomist
  • Locked
VII and Roman Catholic Apologetics?
Replies
9
Views
2K
WrittenFromUtopia
W
T
  • Locked
Why the Roman Catholic Church taught geocentrism
Replies
6
Views
3K
johnny
johnny
jwithnell
  • Locked
Why go Roman catholic and why now?
2
Replies
37
Views
5K
Miss Marple
Miss Marple
TryingToLearn
Reformed Works on Roman Catholic Miracles?
Replies
9
Views
1K
Charles Johnson
Charles Johnson
Back
Top