Your Love is Extravagant and Song of Songs? No-EPers, please

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panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
Wonder who moved this from the Worship forum - since the primary question was it's appropriateness for worship from a non-EP perspective?

Is EP the requirement for worship song discussions? Just curious.

No, EP is not a requirement for worship song discussions.

Thanks for the reply! Was wondering what the rationale was.

I moved the thread because it looked like the conversation was heading toward a discussion of the asthetics of the song.

Are asthetics discussions inappropriate for a worship song?

Regardless, I don't think it is a proper worship song because of its theology, in particular:

I find I’m moving to the rythyms of your grace

The line strongly suggests that grace is something that we cooperate with. But as confessional Christians, we view grace as the unmerited and free favor of God.

Does the author imply that it is his own effort causing him to move in alignment with God's grace?

As has been mentioned earlier, the song's view of the Grace of God is more commonplace in Charismatic or Catholic circles. But I think this "word picture" denigrates the Grace of God: it's some kind of background feature we groove to.

I think you are injecting a bias into the song that it does not express.

BTW, I'm not an EPer.

Good deal - please feel free to continue in the dialog. Your perspective is interesting. :)
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
Definitely a deep and passionate love in SoS. It's the sexual stuff that wouldn't make it appropriate. Nowwhere does God relay his love to us in those kind of terms. That's why I refered to it as a 2nd level kind of love. But warm and fuzzy it ain't. Earthy.

Now on a relevent thought. Panta, I followed your link you provided. NarroWay is right on! (I chuckled over the claping in time. Something that our praise band can't do.) Compair your band's lyrics to the Extravagant song. Big difference. NarroWay sings about what God has done for us. And how to receive His salvation. The Joy In The Morning video was GREAT!! I would welcome you to come and play in our Church. You should put that vid here on PB in the Music section.

Y'all check out Panta's link above to see how it's done right.

God Bless - Grymir :judge:

Thanks Grymir - I appreciate your compliments :handshake: - you have really nailed the reason I posted this in the Worship section. I wrestle - and I am sure others do, as well - with what textual imagery is appropriate in worship song.

I think your point focuses around the language in the SoS and I agree it is very earthy - sometimes almost explicit - maybe too explicit? (Can that be true for Scripture?)

I will also confess that I had the initial impression that the language used in the song may be too evocative, which caused me to think about the nature of song in worship and how my non-EP brethren would interpret the song.

I am a firm believer that there is wisdom in godly council - and I have yet to find a forum as filled with it as here. :)

Here is another question - would you have a problem singing this portion of the Psalms in worship?

Psalm 137
How Shall We Sing the LORD’s Song?

8O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed,
blessed shall he be who repays you
with what you have done to us!
9Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock!
 

Grymir

Puritan Board Graduate
I'm a big fan of the imprecatory psalms. I see nothing wrong with those kind of thoughts. (See the thread on Rom 12:20 for how to do it in the Church Age. I'm not going Dispensational on y'all, but were not Israel either) But I wouldn't want to sing them in Church. Well, I would, but it wouldn't be adhering to what worship should be.
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
I'm stepping into the non-EPer's shoes for a moment and saying that it would not be appropriate for worship since it's not appropriate outside of worship! :2cents: :)

Not appropriate outside of worship?? That's when this song would be most appropriate!! Private devotions, or when an individual wants to express their love for God personally, that's when I feel songs like this are very appropriate. The OP was about this song in church service. Outside of church is when this song would be perfectly O.k. It's got a good tune, the lyrics are refreshingly fresh, and with the SoS feel, better than most sappy 'love song's for Jesus'.

God Bless - Grymir :judge:

If the text reflect biblical principles - why is it innappropriate for worship?

Is ANY text of Scripture appropriate, JD?
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
Is ANY text of Scripture appropriate, JD?

Not sure I follow 100% - contextualize, just a bit, for a weaker brother. :)

Just curious what your criteria are (I'm no EP'er either) for appropriate vs. not appropriate scripture allusions and such. Since you're appealing to the propriety of singing Biblical sentiments, (with the clear implication being that since the song you've chosen sounds *somewhat* like *some* of the things said in the Song of Solomon, it must be valid for worship song) I wonder what your limits are?
 

Grymir

Puritan Board Graduate
Church should be about presenting the Holiness of God to the people, His salvation clearly preached, and the sacraments. It should be about what God has done for us at the Cross. The songs that are sung are to reflect these things. That's why the sappy love song shouldn't be sung (which I disagree with), and the imprecatory psalm's either (which i do agree with). It would be more appropriate for my private prayers and songs.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
Is ANY text of Scripture appropriate, JD?

Not sure I follow 100% - contextualize, just a bit, for a weaker brother. :)

Just curious what your criteria are (I'm no EP'er either) for appropriate vs. not appropriate scripture allusions and such. Since you're appealing to the propriety of singing Biblical sentiments, (with the clear implication being that since the song you've chosen sounds *somewhat* like *some* of the things said in the Song of Solomon, it must be valid for worship song) I wonder what your limits are?

My limits are anything not contributing to the glory of God, thus my seeking godly counsel :) - as I said earlier, my second impression of the song was that it may be too evocative - I will admit that my impressions have been somewhat confirmed, but as you know, my brother, I am inclined to test everything so I can keep all the good God offers for His glory and contributes to the edification of his sheep. :)
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
Church should be about presenting the Holiness of God to the people, His salvation clearly preached, and the sacraments. It should be about what God has done for us at the Cross. The songs that are sung are to reflect these things. That's why the sappy love song shouldn't be sung (which I disagree with), and the imprecatory psalm's either (which i do agree with). It would be more appropriate for my private prayers and songs.

I assume you don't really mean that any appropriate worship song must deal thematically with the Cross...
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
Not sure I follow 100% - contextualize, just a bit, for a weaker brother. :)

Just curious what your criteria are (I'm no EP'er either) for appropriate vs. not appropriate scripture allusions and such. Since you're appealing to the propriety of singing Biblical sentiments, (with the clear implication being that since the song you've chosen sounds *somewhat* like *some* of the things said in the Song of Solomon, it must be valid for worship song) I wonder what your limits are?

My limits are anything not contributing to the glory of God, thus my seeking godly counsel :) - as I said earlier, my second impression of the song was that it may be too evocative - I will admit that my impressions have been somewhat confirmed, but as you know, my brother, I am inclined to test everything so I can keep all the good God offers for His glory and contributes to the edification of his sheep. :)

I just thought it interesting that you were appealing to the fact that the sentiments in the song you posted sound somewhat like themes from the Song of Solomon in your defense of using that song in worship.

So I'm wondering (perhaps this is a place for a different thread) why those who disagree with the singing of the imprecatory psalms think one ought not to sing those in worship...
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
:judge: What does being EP have to do with critiquing the theological message of a song? Nothing. As a moderator I deem it inappropriate to exclude EPers from contributing to such threads.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Concerning the content of the song -- if one looks up what "extravagant" means in a dictionary, it becomes obvious that it is not an appropriate word to describe God's love. "Immoderate; exceeding the bounds of reason; exorbitant; wasteful." Poetic license does not permit one to desecrate the holy love of God.

"Friendship" with God in the Bible is not the "mateship" of the modern term. It is not "intimate." It is aligning oneself to the cause of God and truth. Christ said, "Ye are my friends, IF..."

And the song goes downhill from there.
 

JBaldwin

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Not sure I follow 100% - contextualize, just a bit, for a weaker brother. :)

Just curious what your criteria are (I'm no EP'er either) for appropriate vs. not appropriate scripture allusions and such. Since you're appealing to the propriety of singing Biblical sentiments, (with the clear implication being that since the song you've chosen sounds *somewhat* like *some* of the things said in the Song of Solomon, it must be valid for worship song) I wonder what your limits are?

My limits are anything not contributing to the glory of God, thus my seeking godly counsel :) - as I said earlier, my second impression of the song was that it may be too evocative - I will admit that my impressions have been somewhat confirmed, but as you know, my brother, I am inclined to test everything so I can keep all the good God offers for His glory and contributes to the edification of his sheep. :)

I think the song is too evocative for public worship as well.
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
Because the EPer will assume apriori no potential worship merit in any non-Psalmic song.

Not particularly fair, JD. The EPer might find that the words appropriately praise God, and might in fact find much merit in the words. For the EPer, non-inclusion in the Psalter is the ONLY criterion by which a song is judged with regard to worthiness for use in corporate worship.

However, EPers would have MUCH to critique, and much to contribute. I, for one, would very much like to hear their opinion on the matter. The Psalter isn't for them just "the only songbook" as a wooden thing - but it is also meet for worship in content, form and substance. There is much they might have to say in discussing this song.
 

MW

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Because the EPer will assume apriori no potential worship merit in any non-Psalmic song.

As David pointed out, an EPer can see merit in non-Psalmic songs outside of stated worship; and as he also noted, if a song is not appropriate outside of worship contexts it certainly should not be included within it.

But this ruling is not up for discussion. Your excluding EPers has been ruled out of order. If you insist on excluding them we will have to close down the thread.
 

Herald

Administrator
Staff member
Because the EPer will assume apriori no potential worship merit in any non-Psalmic song.

Not particularly fair, JD. The EPer might find that the words appropriately praise God, and might in fact find much merit in the words. For the EPer, non-inclusion in the Psalter is the ONLY criterion by which a song is judged with regard to worthiness for use in corporate worship.

However, EPers would have MUCH to critique, and much to contribute. I, for one, would very much like to hear their opinion on the matter. The Psalter isn't for them just "the only songbook" as a wooden thing - but it is also meet for worship in content, form and substance. There is much they might have to say in discussing this song.

Todd, absolutely! The same could be said for other issues, even baptism. I have learned so much from the paedo position, even though I am not swayed to change my position. If you close down perspective you lose the same.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
toddpedlar said:
I just thought it interesting that you were appealing to the fact that the sentiments in the song you posted sound somewhat like themes from the Song of Solomon in your defense of using that song in worship.

potentially using - big difference - and I thought it might be useful to explore some surrounding rationale - particularly from the non-EPers (hint, hint, again...:)) - I think it has been/is a good and useful discussion.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
Because the EPer will assume apriori no potential worship merit in any non-Psalmic song.

Not particularly fair, JD. The EPer might find that the words appropriately praise God, and might in fact find much merit in the words. For the EPer, non-inclusion in the Psalter is the ONLY criterion by which a song is judged with regard to worthiness for use in corporate worship.

However, EPers would have MUCH to critique, and much to contribute. I, for one, would very much like to hear their opinion on the matter. The Psalter isn't for them just "the only songbook" as a wooden thing - but it is also meet for worship in content, form and substance. There is much they might have to say in discussing this song.

While I appreciate the rationale and its merit - I was simply following a practice I have seen utilized several times before on the board to avoid diverging a subject about which some specific idea with a specific group in mind could be discussed. If this practice is officially discouraged, as I see it has, I certainly apologize to all concerned and will discontinue its utilization.
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
Because the EPer will assume apriori no potential worship merit in any non-Psalmic song.

Not particularly fair, JD. The EPer might find that the words appropriately praise God, and might in fact find much merit in the words. For the EPer, non-inclusion in the Psalter is the ONLY criterion by which a song is judged with regard to worthiness for use in corporate worship.

However, EPers would have MUCH to critique, and much to contribute. I, for one, would very much like to hear their opinion on the matter. The Psalter isn't for them just "the only songbook" as a wooden thing - but it is also meet for worship in content, form and substance. There is much they might have to say in discussing this song.

While I appreciate the rationale and its merit - I was simply following a practice I have seen utilized several times before on the board to avoid diverging a subject about which some specific idea with a specific group in mind could be discussed. If this practice is officially discouraged, as I see it has, I certainly apologize to all concerned and will discontinue its utilization.

You can exercise the same desire by asking that the song you are proposing be evaluated not on "EP vs non-EP" terms. To ask that specific people not post at all is out of bounds.
 

panta dokimazete

Panting Donkey Machete
As a matter of fact, guys - I can take a (not so subtle) hint - my (percieved) kind is not welcome here, so I will scoot - truly better things to do than beat my head against this. :(

Goodbye, God-bless and Soli Deo Gloria.
 

Barnpreacher

Puritan Board Junior
JD,

I hope that you're simply talking about bowing out of only this thread and not the Puritan Board completely.

I want you to know many of your posts have been a blessing to me and to others as well I'm sure. So, there's no need to leave the PB over one thread. Just take a deep breath, gather your thoughts and come back later. I know at times I have struggled with how overwhelming the strong and differing personalities can be on the PB, but for me it continues to be a place where I can learn.

Hang in there, brother. Don't go anywhere.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Something that goes against my grain is to play a Sporting Event and then start trying to tell the Refs how to call the game.

The title of the thread is inappropriate from the beginning. It assumes that EP'ers could not evaluate the theological content of the song wheter or not they agreed with its appropriateness for worship. It's like if I started a thread on the song "In the Garden" and then told all the non-EP'ers that their comments on the "Jesus is my Boyfriend" imagery is banned from discussion.

Now, if I were to do that, I would certainly have to have some authority on this board to do so. I do but it would be an abuse of my authority. A user may request the Moderators to help him keep the discussion focused on the topic but he may not direct their efforts. He is certainly in no position to argue the point ad naseum with them.

Honestly, I can't get the picture out of my mind of an undisciplined athlete who starts cussing at the Refs. Zero sympathy from my end.
 

A5pointer

Puritan Board Sophomore
Coming in late, have no idea what the controversy is but I have a buddy who hates "In the Garden". He is not EP. :lol:
 

Barnpreacher

Puritan Board Junior
I would still hate to see the man leave over this one incident. I must confess that I didn't agree with him excluding EP folk either, but I just can't imagine he did it in spite.

So, he was shown he was wrong and hopefully he can admit to it even if he didn't have the wrong intentions. Then he can continue to contribute to a place where we all learn how to grow together in the Lord.
 

Semper Fidelis

2 Timothy 2:24-25
Staff member
Ryan,

We'll see. This has just become a pattern lately for some to pretend as if Moderators have no authority here and then trashing the board when they exercise it.
 

Southern Presbyterian

Puritan Board Doctor
ok - so, help me understand - we have drawn a correlation between the text images and the SoS - is the SoS loving images only evocative of "warm and fuzzy feelings in the tummy" or a deep and passionate love?

(Trying to be conversational - hope that is coming across in my tone. :))

Sorry for the long pause, I had to go to prayer meeting/Bible study. [Also note that I am responding to the before reading the other responses below, so pardon me if I cover the same ground or contradict greater wisdom.]

Your tone is conversational - no problems. We're brothers having a conversation about music. :):sing:

I also (like Grymir) wouldn't be comfortable singing parts of SoS in worship. Yet to me this is beside the point at this juncture of the discussion. The thing that I am keying in on is the overall "tone" of the song. It comes across as a romantic ballad. I'm not at all comfortable offering romance before the Lord in worship. It may be mostly the music, but I also think the words are "love words" we would offer to a love interest and am not convinced that we should in any way address our Lord and Savior in such familiar romantic terms. I don't know a better way to say this. (I wish my written communication skills were better)

Anyway, I'll leave it there for now and go read the rest of the thread and see what wisdom better minds and communicators have had to offer. :)
 

Galatians220

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
but EPers know who they are! :D

Yeah, we kinda do... :sing: :book2: (Scottish Metrical Psalmody there... split-leaf version...)

I'll just "slip out the back, Jack" right now! :lol:

(If it means anything, I still sing the Sir John Stainer version of "God So Loved the World," among others, to myself when I'm alone in my car... :) )

Margaret
 
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