Women studying theology

[reformed trucker]

*silent scream*

The theologically ignorant who dispense unbiblical advice have that effect on me also.

 

[DonP]

The only place I hear that recently is the Doug Wilson fundamental churches.
One very smart young woman told me she was instructed to quit studying scripture and theology because she could end up so smart there would not be any men less educated than her in the scriptures to marry. She could not marry a man who wasn't smarter because she would be teaching him and not able to submit.

I couldn't believe it. But I found from others this was the general teaching from fathers to daughters in their churches.

I am not sure I would equate ignorance with submission anyway, so I don't see how keeping an aspiring woman from studying the Confession and Catechisms and commentaries or even theological works would be any different from listening to their pastor or elders teach.
I wonder if they keep the sermons simple too so the women in the congregation hearing them don't get too smart.?? Its just a question of their thinking and how i could be different, not an accusation .

 

[Beth Ellen Nagle]

The only place I hear that recently is the Doug Wilson fundamental churches.
One very smart young woman told me she was instructed to quit studying scripture and theology because she could end up so smart there would not be any men less educated than her in the scriptures to marry. She could not marry a man who wasn't smarter because she would be teaching him and not able to submit.

I couldn't believe it. But I found from others this was the general teaching from fathers to daughters in their churches.

I am not sure I would equate ignorance with submission anyway, so I don't see how keeping an aspiring woman from studying the Confession and Catechisms and commentaries or even theological works would be any different from listening to their pastor or elders teach.
I wonder if they keep the sermons simple too so the women in the congregation hearing them don't get too smart.?? Its just a question of their thinking and how i could be different, not an accusation .

I am smarter than my husband and we have no problems.

 

[reformed trucker]

One very smart young woman told me she was instructed to quit studying scripture and theology because she could end up so smart there would not be any men less educated than her in the scriptures to marry.

So instead of the men "stepping up" their studies, the women should be "dumbed down"?

Maybe she needs to find a church where the men are not intellectually lazy.

 

[DonP]

One very smart young woman told me she was instructed to quit studying scripture and theology because she could end up so smart there would not be any men less educated than her in the scriptures to marry.

So instead of the men "stepping up" their studies, the women should be "dumbed down"?

Maybe she needs to find a church where the men are not intellectually lazy.

She at 19-22 is still in submission to her father until she marries. She could move out and go to college but even college is discourage for women. They do not need a job, they wil be homemakers.

I said don't you need a skill to fall back on if your husband dies.
The church is not usually equipped to handle the full support of a woman and her 8 kids who doesns't believe in family planning either. And it may be a bit tougher to find a new husband with 8 kids aged 1-10

 

[Jen]

I'm with all these theologically trained women who see the importance of knowing the Scriptures. I tell my girls "God gave you a good brain--USE IT!"

Yep, that's pretty much what all we female seminarians tell people who ask us, "Why are you in seminary if you're a woman? What's the use?"

 

[puritanpilgrim]

He said a woman doesn't need to study theology on her own because her husband or father will teach her all the things she needs to know. But my question was what if she has no husband or her father cannot or will not teach her theology, who will teach her? He replied that a kinsman redeemer needs to step up and teach her or one of the elders/pastors should take her in and teach her. None of my elders have stepped up (and apparently it's not my place to ask them to do so) so what am I supposed to do? He said that it's a product of our fallen world that things like that happen. So in effect he said "Too bad for you."

I can't believe this. I think you should stay away from this silly man. And please don't quit studying.

-----Added 4/21/2009 at 06:07:16 EST-----

Alright, I'm about to lose it.

The only place I hear that recently is the Doug Wilson fundamental churches.
One very smart young woman told me she was instructed to quit studying scripture and theology because she could end up so smart there would not be any men less educated than her in the scriptures to marry. She could not marry a man who wasn't smarter because she would be teaching him and not able to submit.

Where is this coming from? Where does it say a man must be smarter than his wife. Why would that matter. My wife is a better administrater than me. Does that mean were unequally yolked. What is going on? Where is the Proverbs 31 women less intelligent than her husband? This stuff is not christian. It is wrong. And I'm real close to calling it sinful. Timothy was educated by his mother and grandmother. Should they not be well educated in the word?

 

[Jen]

Timothy was educated by his mother and grandmother. Should they not be well educated in the word?

Good point! I'd forgotten that example. Why on earth would someone want to marry someone not capable of instructing their (as in the couple's) children properly? Accidental heterodoxy and even heresy can be so easy, and it's those little assumptions that you grow up with that are so hard to get rid of.

It really does boggle our minds that there are people who think a level of theological ignorance is good in a wife...

 

[puritanpilgrim]

I have one more thing to add. I am glad I have a wife who is smart enough to tell me when I'm wrong. My wife is submissive, but there have been many many times when my wife has shown me that I was incorrect on something. In seminary, a professor tried taking a shot at me, (him and I had differing views on soteriology, so he would take a occasional jab,) and he joked after my wife and I wed, that I had to go marry a women smarter than myself. I had no problem with his statement. I have a smart wife. My wife swears it's not true, but I think it just depends on the subject.

 

[CNJ]

I started a theological eschatological blog with two men (my cousin and an elder at my church). Both men encouraged me to blog. They both disagreed (one amil and one postmil) and both wanted to bow out. However, they are both on as administrators and I seem to be the main person posting lately, but I am glad they are both administrators on that blog and read what I post. My husband has dementia now, and has given away or sold to Baker Books most of his theological library. Hence I like having my questions answered by my cousin and the elder at my church. My pastor also regularly answers my theological questions. I have the privilege of respecting my husband and consulting him, but he no longer teaches me theology.


Carol
Millennial Dreams --Theological Blog
Plant City Lady --Blog on the Lord's Provision
DUI Songs --A secular ministry I have teaching DUI offenders

 

[DonP]

Where is this coming from? Where does it say a man must be smarter than his wife. Why would that matter. My wife is a better administrater than me. Does that mean were unequally yolked. What is going on? Where is the Proverbs 31 women less intelligent than her husband? This stuff is not christian. It is wrong. And I'm real close to calling it sinful. Timothy was educated by his mother and grandmother. Should they not be well educated in the word?

I think it is a deduction that in spiritual things, or at least theology proper, the man is to be smarter so the woman can submit.
If she were smarter or very knowledgeable in this area she might think her husband wrong and by offering things for him to consider so he could make a wise decision and be a good leader, instead of being seen a s a good helper to him, she would be more prone to not submit and try to lead him.

Perhpas they would do well to teach more on being kind, caring husbands who value the wisdom of their wives, and make use of it, seeing them as a perfect helper to them in the areas they need it.

What about the man who is not real brilliant minded and not well suited to handle much theology. Should he marry a woman even weaker? I would see it best for him to marry a woman with skills in this area to help him and the family avoid errors. He can after consulting her still make the final decisions or at least be held accountable to listening to her instead of an elder or minister he can also consult with.

2 Sam 20:16 Then a wise woman cried out from the city, "Hear, hear! Please say to Joab, 'Come nearby, that I may speak with you.'" 17 When he had come near to her, the woman said, "Are you Joab?"
He answered, "I am."
Then she said to him, "Hear the words of your maidservant."
And he answered, "I am listening." NKJV

But if you are a Sheba you may not want her to be wise, at least wise and bold.

2 Sam 20:22 Then the woman in her wisdom went to all the people. And they cut off the head of Sheba the son of Bichri, and threw it out to Joab NKJV


But a woman as well as a man perhaps should use some care to be sure her motives are godly and not prideful or selfish in seeking wisdom lest we forget this woman who would be wise.

Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
NKJV

 

[py3ak]

Perhaps you could say to him, "Anyone with such foolish notions deserves to be permanently single."

 

[Beth Ellen Nagle]

Perhaps you could say to him, "Anyone with such foolish notions deserves to be permanently single."

 

[chbrooking]

the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
(1Corinthians 14:34-35 ESV)

Paul is clearly speaking about public worship. They neither need to be teaching, nor directing what is taught IN CHURCH. This has nothing to do with not studying. Furthermore, a comparison with 1tim 2.11-12 will show that this is an issue of authority and propriety.

I think if you continue reading to 1tim 2.13-15, and consider the words to the woman in Gen. 3.16 (and compare Gen. 4:7), you'll see that one of the effects of the fall is that women will always seek to usurp male authority. I think that's what Paul is after here. He's not saying you can't study theology. You should. Since you are no less an image bearer than any man, shouldn't you get to know the one whose image you bear?

 

[Kevin]

The only place I hear that recently is the Doug Wilson fundamental churches.
One very smart young woman told me she was instructed to quit studying scripture and theology because she could end up so smart there would not be any men less educated than her in the scriptures to marry. She could not marry a man who wasn't smarter because she would be teaching him and not able to submit.

I couldn't believe it. But I found from others this was the general teaching from fathers to daughters in their churches.

I am not sure I would equate ignorance with submission anyway, so I don't see how keeping an aspiring woman from studying the Confession and Catechisms and commentaries or even theological works would be any different from listening to their pastor or elders teach.
I wonder if they keep the sermons simple too so the women in the congregation hearing them don't get too smart.?? Its just a question of their thinking and how i could be different, not an accusation .

"Doug Wilson" are you sure? I have heard him say the exact opposite, more than once, in person & read it in his books.

I must insist that you correct this or provide a citation.

(now I also know "another Doug" that I have heard say some very similar things, much like you mentioned, are you sure you are blaming the correct Doug?)

 

[TimV]

This is my first question so please be gentle.

So how did we do?

 

[Ex Nihilo]

"Doug Wilson" are you sure? I have heard him say the exact opposite, more than once, in person & read it in his books.

I must insist that you correct this or provide a citation.

(now I also know "another Doug" that I have heard say some very similar things, much like you mentioned, are you sure you are blaming the correct Doug?)

This is a good question. I've read a couple of Doug Wilson's books, including his book on education, and never picked up on anything of the sort. As you said, he seemed to take the opposite view. Now, I'm no Wilson expert, and I'm sure he's said a great many problematic things in other areas, but I can't imagine that this is true. If this can't be backed up with a citation, it needs to be corrected, in keeping with the Ninth Commandment.

 

[Montanablue]

"Doug Wilson" are you sure? I have heard him say the exact opposite, more than once, in person & read it in his books.

I must insist that you correct this or provide a citation.

(now I also know "another Doug" that I have heard say some very similar things, much like you mentioned, are you sure you are blaming the correct Doug?)

This is a good question. I've read a couple of Doug Wilson's books, including his book on education, and never picked up on anything of the sort. As you said, he seemed to take the opposite view. Now, I'm no Wilson expert, and I'm sure he's said a great many problematic things in other areas, but I can't imagine that this is true. If this can't be backed up with a citation, it needs to be corrected, in keeping with the Ninth Commandment.

I think its easy (at least for me) to sometimes mix up Doug Wilson with Doug Wilson's "followers." I have many problems with Doug Wilson, but I have many more problems with some of those who purport to be following his teachings! I have certainly heard "Wilsonites" advocate the ignorance of women, (once one chastised me at length for attending college - that was a delightful experience) however it may not be fair to characterize Wilson himself as an advocate of this line of thought.

 

[Ex Nihilo]

I think its easy (at least for me) to sometimes mix up Doug Wilson with Doug Wilson's "followers." I have many problems with Doug Wilson, but I have many more problems with some of those who purport to be following his teachings! I have certainly heard "Wilsonites" advocate the ignorance of women, (once one chastised me at length for attending college - that was a delightful experience) however it may not be fair to characterize Wilson himself as an advocate of this line of thought.

Kathleen, this is a very helpful clarification. I have no doubt that the original point was made in good faith, and was not intended to be a false accusation against Wilson. As you point out, it may be accurate for some of Wilson's followers -- I have not encountered many Wilsonites. (And from what you say, I'm thankful for it...) I just want to be particularly scrupulous when we discuss FV men, so that our legitimate criticisms will be taken more seriously.

 

[Idelette]

"Doug Wilson" are you sure? I have heard him say the exact opposite, more than once, in person & read it in his books.

I must insist that you correct this or provide a citation.

(now I also know "another Doug" that I have heard say some very similar things, much like you mentioned, are you sure you are blaming the correct Doug?)

This is a good question. I've read a couple of Doug Wilson's books, including his book on education, and never picked up on anything of the sort. As you said, he seemed to take the opposite view. Now, I'm no Wilson expert, and I'm sure he's said a great many problematic things in other areas, but I can't imagine that this is true. If this can't be backed up with a citation, it needs to be corrected, in keeping with the Ninth Commandment.

I think its easy (at least for me) to sometimes mix up Doug Wilson with Doug Wilson's "followers." I have many problems with Doug Wilson, but I have many more problems with some of those who purport to be following his teachings! I have certainly heard "Wilsonites" advocate the ignorance of women, (once one chastised me at length for attending college - that was a delightful experience) however it may not be fair to characterize Wilson himself as an advocate of this line of thought.

I was going to say the same thing Kathleen! I actually do know several people that are of the persuasion that Theology is not proper for women to be studying....and they tend to be FV (which is probably why Don associated them with Doug Wilson churches). In fact, the comment that Don made about the woman who was told to stop studying if she wants to get married....I've heard that before in FV circles. Perhaps this is not something that Wilson himself teaches, but I would certainly say this is taught within the FV circle.

 

[Montanablue]

I think its easy (at least for me) to sometimes mix up Doug Wilson with Doug Wilson's "followers." I have many problems with Doug Wilson, but I have many more problems with some of those who purport to be following his teachings! I have certainly heard "Wilsonites" advocate the ignorance of women, (once one chastised me at length for attending college - that was a delightful experience) however it may not be fair to characterize Wilson himself as an advocate of this line of thought.

Kathleen, this is a very helpful clarification. I have no doubt that the original point was made in good faith, and was not intended to be a false accusation against Wilson. As you point out, it may be accurate for some of Wilson's followers -- I have not encountered many Wilsonites. (And from what you say, I'm thankful for it...) I just want to be particularly scrupulous when we discuss FV men, so that our legitimate criticisms will be taken more seriously.

I completely agree.I was actually unaware that Wilson was an FV advocate, but as you point out its particularly important for those of us condemning FV to be careful that we do not make speak falsely about our opponents.

Edit: Also, after seeing Yvonne's post, I realize that Doug Wilson being FV makes a LOT of sense. I can't believe I was unaware of this. I've been confused by a lot of things I've read by him, but realizing that he's FV suddenly makes things fall into place. Interesting.

 

[ubermadchen]

This is my first question so please be gentle.

So how did we do?

Wonderfully! Thank you everyone for your insight.

 

[py3ak]

I think its easy (at least for me) to sometimes mix up Doug Wilson with Doug Wilson's "followers." I have many problems with Doug Wilson, but I have many more problems with some of those who purport to be following his teachings! I have certainly heard "Wilsonites" advocate the ignorance of women, (once one chastised me at length for attending college - that was a delightful experience) however it may not be fair to characterize Wilson himself as an advocate of this line of thought.

Kathleen, this is a very helpful clarification. I have no doubt that the original point was made in good faith, and was not intended to be a false accusation against Wilson. As you point out, it may be accurate for some of Wilson's followers -- I have not encountered many Wilsonites. (And from what you say, I'm thankful for it...) I just want to be particularly scrupulous when we discuss FV men, so that our legitimate criticisms will be taken more seriously.

Interestingly, Wilson himself has addressed the problem of followers who don't say what the leader does. It's been a few years, but he pointed out that there was James, who got along well with Paul: then there were certain men who came from James, who did not get along with Paul at all.