Women should keep silent - and all these ladies on the PB

Discussion in 'General discussions' started by Pergamum, Oct 3, 2008.

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  1. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Under the restrictive view of some, the command that women should keep silent in the church means a blanket command that a woman should never teach a man (even if not in ecclesiastical authority or in a church setting). If some hold to this view, why are there woman posters on the PB?

    You know, they might teach a man something on here?

    Should we move to restrict women posters to only hitting the Thanks key or posting Amen?




    Or....

    Are men and women able to mutually bless each other by theological conversation? If they disagree, should a woman ever then argue for her point?
     
  2. Jimmy the Greek

    Jimmy the Greek Puritan Board Senior

    Ban them all. :judge:


    . . . that's a joke. :p
     
  3. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Puritan Board Doctor

    Interesting point, Pergy. I have been on a forum where those views were propounded even more aggresively than here. I have marveled at the fact that those doing the most "teaching" on the subject of male headship and women not teaching or having authority over men were women who essentially anathematized all those daring to disagree with any aspect of their teaching!
     
  4. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    Well, one answer is that they don't own the board. ;)
     
  5. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Rich;

    Some would reply that the owners of the board have placed themselves under either the Bible or the WCF and need to be subservient to that.

    (I guess the Bible because if the board was only under the WCF then us baptists might not be welcome).

    Then they would argue that since this is the case, we must not allow women to exercise authority over a man by trying to teach us something through differing with our posts.



    .....Also, I guess they would say that the PB owners are meanies if they wield their power arbitrarily.
     
  6. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    I've never heard that one before.
     
  7. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    :lol:
     
  8. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Do we have a sarcasm smiley?
     
  9. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    The answer is quite simple:
    It's our duty as men to make sure that we don't learn anything from the women.

    (in case someone can't tell...it's a joke).
     
  10. Grace Alone

    Grace Alone Puritan Board Senior

    :popcorn:

    ;)
     
  11. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    I try every day not to learn anything from my wife - but then she breaks out the ol' frying Pan and tells me my lessons can come in two forms; smooth or lumpy.
     
  12. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    I busted out laughing when i read that....hysterical!
     
  13. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    Outside the pulpit and worship service, those that obsess over learning from women are not the type of people I want to learn from.
     
  14. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. (1Ti 2:11-14)

    Since this passage references creation and the fall as a reason for women not teaching men (authoritative teaching)...why would it be limited to within the church?
     
  15. JOwen

    JOwen Puritan Board Junior

    My wife is one of my best teachers (love, patience, etc.). I think of Priscilla and Aquila and THEIR teaching of Apollo. Why is Priscilla mentioned in so many texts if she too was not a "teacher" or "leader" of a kind? There is official ecclesiastical teaching which women are barred from, and then there is regular, everyday life. I'm taught by men and women. Some women better than many men.
     
  16. JohnGill

    JohnGill Puritan Board Senior

    Not right Pergy! You shouldn't criticize your wife's mashed potatoes on a public forum.
     
  17. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    Because this is the context that Paul delivers that small snippet from. I'm not interested in the argument in this thread. There are many absurdities that I could draw (and downright Scriptural contradictions) if we make this apply to every sphere of activity that a woman participates in but I will refrain.
     
  18. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately. (Act 18:26)

    Why would we presume that when Priscilla and Aquila were teaching that she was the teacher in authority rather than her husband?
     
  19. JohnGill

    JohnGill Puritan Board Senior

    John Gill's Exposition & John Calvin's Commentary

    From Gill:

    1 Timothy 2:11

    Ver. 11. Let the woman learn in silence,.... The apostle goes on to give some other instructions to women, how they should behave themselves in public worship, in the church of God; he would have them be learners and not teachers, sit and hear, and learn more of Christ, and of the truth of the Gospel, and to maintain good works; and he would have them learn in silence, and not offer to rise and speak, under a pretence of having a word from the Lord, or of being under an impulse of the Spirit of the Lord, as some frantic women have done; and if they should meet with anything, under the ministry of the word, they did not understand, or they had an objection to, they were not to speak in public, but ask their own husbands at home; see 1Co 14:34. And thus, they were to behave

    with all subjection; both to the ministers of the word, and to their own husbands; obeying from the heart the form of doctrine delivered to them; and submitting cheerfully to the ordinances of Christ; the whole of which is a professed subjection to the Gospel, and which becomes all professing godliness.


    1 Timothy 2:12

    Ver. 12. But I suffer not a woman to teach, &c,] They may teach in private, in their own houses and families; they are to be teachers of good things, Tit 2:3. They are to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord; nor is the law or doctrine of a mother to be forsaken, any more than the instruction of a father; see Pr 1:8. Timothy, no doubt, received much advantage, from the private teachings and instructions of his mother Eunice, and grandmother Lois; but then women are not to teach in the church; for that is an act of power and authority, and supposes the persons that teach to be of a superior degree, and in a superior office, and to have superior abilities to those who are taught by them:

    nor to usurp authority over the man; as not in civil and political things, or in things relating to civil government; and in things domestic, or the affairs of the family; so not in things ecclesiastical, or what relate to the church and government of it; for one part of rule is to feed the church with knowledge and understanding; and for a woman to take upon her to do this, is to usurp an authority over the man: this therefore she ought not to do,

    but to be in silence; to sit and hear quietly and silently, and learn, and not teach, as in 1Ti 2:11.


    1 Timothy 2:13

    Ver. 13. For Adam was first formed,.... Immediately by God, out of the dust of the earth; and the breath of life was breathed into him, and he became a living soul; thus wonderfully and fearfully was he made; after this he was put into the garden of Eden, to dress it, and all creatures were brought to him, to give them names; and still an help meet or a companion was not found for him. All this while Eve was not as yet formed, but after this,

    then Eve. She was formed out of him, was made out of one of his ribs; and was formed for him, for his use, service, help and comfort; and here lies the strength of the apostle's reason, why the woman should be in subjection to the man; not so much because he was made before her; for so were the beasts of the field before Adam; and yet this gave them no superiority to him; but because she was made out of him, and made for him, see 1Co 11:8. So that the woman's subjection to the man is according to the laws of nature and creation; and was antecedent to the fall; and would have been, if that had never been; though that brought her into a lower, and meaner, and more depressed estate; which the apostle next mentions. The words may be rendered, "the first Adam", or "Adam the first was formed, and then Eve". See 1Co 15:45.


    1 Timothy 2:14

    Ver. 14. And Adam was not deceived,.... There is no need to say with interpreters, that he was not deceived first; and that he was not deceived immediately by the serpent, but by Eve; and that he is never said in Scripture to be deceived, as Melchizedek is never said to have a father or mother. The apostle's positive assertion is to be taken without any such limitations or qualifications; Adam never was deceived at all; neither by the serpent, with whom he never conversed; nor by his wife, he knew what he did, when he took the fruit of her, and ate; he ate it not under any deception, or vain imagination, that they should not die, but should be as gods, knowing good and evil. He took and ate out of love to his wife, from a fond affection to her, to bear her company, and that she might not die alone; he knew what he did, and he knew what would be the consequence of it, the death of them both; and inasmuch as he sinned wilfully, and against light and knowledge, without any deception, his sin was the greater: and hereby death came in, and passed on all men, who sinned in him:

    but the woman being deceived was in the transgression: and the serpent really beguiled her; she owned it herself, Ge 3:13. And this is elsewhere said of her, 2Co 11:3 which never is of Adam. She really thought the serpent spoke truth, that she and her husband should not die, if they ate of the fruit; but that it was good to make them wise; and that, upon eating it, they should be as gods, knowing good and evil; and under this deception she fell into the transgression, and was the cause and means, by her persuasions and example, of bringing her husband into the same sin; which involved him and all his posterity in ruin and destruction. And therefore she is called by the Jews {p} Nweh Ma, "the mother of iniquity and sin"; to which they refer, Ps 51:5. And they say, {q} she was the cause of death to Adam, and to all the world: See Gill on "Ro 5:12". And they observe {r} the order of the punishment of the serpent, Eve, and Adam, as of their sin; the serpent was first accursed, then Eve, and last of all Adam. They say

    "{s} Samael (the devil) could not subvert Adam, till the serpent came and turned the heart of Eve, and Eve turned his heart, and they both sinned; wherefore it is said, "the woman which thou gavest me"; Samael had no power to turn him, till Eve came, and she was the cause of his eating.''

    Now inasmuch as the serpent did not attack Adam, he being the stronger and more knowing person, and less capable of being managed and seduced; but made his attempt on Eve, in which he succeeded; and since not Adam, but Eve, was deceived, it appears that the man is the more proper person to bear rule and authority, as in civil and domestic, so in ecclesiastic affairs; and it is right for the woman to learn, and the man to teach: and seeing that Eve was the cause of transgression to Adam, and of punishment to him and his posterity, the subjection of the woman to the man was confirmed afresh: and she was brought into a more depressed state of dependence on him, and subjection to him; see Ge 3:16. The Ethiopic version renders the text, "Adam hath not deceived, the woman hath deceived and prevaricated".

    {p} Tzeror Hammor, fol. 141. 3. {q} T. Hieros. Sabbat, fol. 5. 2. Zohar in Gcn. fol. 27. 3. Caphtor, fol. 37. 2. {r} T. Bab. Erubin, fol. 18. 1. & Taanith, fol. 15. 2. Bereshit Rabba, sect. 20. fol. 17. 1. {s} Midrash Ruth in Zohar in Gen. fol. 27. 3.

    From Calvin:

    11 Let a woman learn in quietness. After having spoken of dress, he now adds with what modesty women ought to conduct themselves in the holy assembly. And first he bids them learn quietly; for quietness means silence, that they may not take upon them to speak in public. This he immediately explains more clearly, by forbidding them to teach.

    12 But I suffer not a woman to teach. Not that he takes from them the charge of instructing their family, but only excludes them from the office of teaching, which God has committed to men only. On this subject we have explained our views in the exposition of the First Epistle to the Corinthians. If any one bring forward, by way of objection, Deborah (Judges 4:4) and others of the same class, of whom we read that they were at one time appointed by the command of God to govern the people, the answer is easy. Extraordinary acts done by God do not overturn the ordinary rules of government, by which he intended that we should be bound. Accordingly, if women at one time held the office of prophets and teachers, and that too when they were supernaturally called to it by the Spirit of God, He who is above all law might do this; but, being a peculiar case, this is not opposed to the constant and ordinary system of government.

    He adds — what is closely allied to the office of teaching — and not to assume authority over the man; for the very reason, why they are forbidden to teach, is, that it is not permitted by their condition. They are subject, and to teach implies the rank of power or authority. Yet it may be thought that there is no great force in this argument; because even prophets and teachers are subject to kings and to other magistrates. I reply, there is no absurdity in the same person commanding and likewise obeying, when viewed in different relations. But this does not apply to the case of woman, who by nature (that is, by the ordinary law of God) is formed to obey; for γυναικοκρατία (the government of women) has always been regarded by all wise persons as a monstrous thing; and, therefore, so to speak, it will be a mingling of heaven and earth, if women usurp the right to teach. Accordingly, he bids them be “quiet,” that is, keep within their own rank.

    13 For Adam was first created He assigns two reasons why women ought to be subject to men; because not only did God enact this law at the beginning, but he also inflicted it as a punishment on the woman. (Genesis 3:16.) He accordingly shews that, although mankind had stood in their first and original uprightness, the true order of nature, which proceeded from the command of God, bears that women shall be subject. Nor is this inconsistent with the fact, that Adam, by falling from his first dignity, deprived himself of his authority; for in the ruins, which followed sin, there still linger some remains of the divine blessing, and it was not proper that woman, by her own fault, should make her condition better than before. Yet the reason that Paul assigns, that woman was second in the order of creation, appears not to be a very strong argument in favor of her subjection; for John the Baptist was before Christ in the order of time, and yet was greatly inferior in rank. But although Paul does not state all the circumstances which are related by Moses, yet he intended that his readers should take them into consideration. Now Moses shews that the woman was created afterwards, in order that she might be a kind of appendage to the man; and that she was joined to the man on the express condition, that she should be at hand to render obedience to him. (Genesis 2:21.) Since, therefore, God did not create two chiefs of equal power, but added to the man an inferior aid, the Apostle justly reminds us of that order of creation in which the eternal and inviolable appointment of God is strikingly displayed.
    14 And Adam was not deceived He alludes to the punishment inflicted on the woman:

    “Because thou hast obeyed the voice of the serpent, thou shalt be subject to the authority of thy husband, and thy desire shall be to him.”
    Because she had given fatal advice, it was right that she should learn that she was under the power and will of another; and because she had drawn her husband aside from the command of God, it was right that she should be deprived of all liberty and placed under the yoke. Besides, the Apostle does not rest his argument entirely or absolutely on the cause of the transgression, but founds it on the sentence which was pronounced by God.

    Yet it may be thought that these two statements are somewhat contradictory: that the subjection of the woman is the punishment of her transgression, and yet that it was imposed on her from the creation; for thence it will follow, that she was doomed to servitude before she sinned. I reply, there is nothing to hinder that the condition of obeying should be natural from the beginning, and that afterwards the accidental condition of serving should come into existence; so that the subjection was now less voluntary and agreeable than it had formerly been.

    Again, this passage has given to some people an occasion for affirming that Adam did not fall by means of error, but that he was only overcome by the allurements of his wife. Accordingly, they think that the woman only was deceived by the wiles of the devil, to believe that she and her husband would be like the gods; But that Adam was not at all persuaded of this, but tasted the fruit in order to please his wife. But it is easy to refute this opinion; for, if Adam had not given credit to the falsehood of Satan, God would not have reproached him:
    “Behold, Adam is become like one of us.” (Genesis 3:22.)

    There are other reasons of which I say nothing; for there needs not a long refutation of an error which does not rest on any probable conjecture. By these words Paul does not mean that Adam was not entangled by the same deceitfulness of the devil, but that the cause or source of the transgression proceeded from Eve.
     
  20. satz

    satz Puritan Board Senior

    The bare facts of what happened in creation and the fall do not logically imply anything for women living today. Rather, we are limited to God's revelation of what they mean.

    If God had not written the first half those verses but had only wrote "Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor", that wouldn't have any practical effect on what women can, or cannot do, without God telling us how that history should affect us today.

    In other words, when Paul references creation and the fall he does so to back up a specific point he is making, namely "Let a woman learn quietly..." etc. So the extent to which Paul's restriction of women's authority applies is understood by determining the context and application of 1 Tim 2:11-14, not from trying to second guess the implications of the fall beyond what Paul has specifically set out for us.
     
  21. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    If you are going to mention absurdities and contradictions i think that it would only be right to state what they are instead of refraining from them, yet not refraining from talking about them in general.

    Let's look at more of the context of the passage:
    I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness--with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. (1Ti 2:8-15)

    Men should pray in every place. Certainly that doesn't mean only in church. And certainly we aren't supposed to pray without anger or quarreling only in church.

    The it says "likewise... women..." so it seems to me it's still on the topic of all of life and not just church service. Otherwise, why would he speak of bearing children? certainly this passage has further implications than just within the walls of the church.
     
  22. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    She is mentioned first; and they are always mentioned together. They appear to be a missionary team. It seems that they both spoke and talked to him about spiritual things and that he learned from both.
     
  23. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    It goes back to teaching in authority, not simply teaching.
     
  24. Semper Fidelis

    Semper Fidelis 2 Timothy 2:24-25 Staff Member

    I guess I'll just be not right and yet refrain. You've made your case. I disagree. We'll leave it at that. If you want to see my reasons then you're welcome to search the PB where I've interacted on this before but I'm not going to engage on yet another thread where every sphere of activity is flattened into one. I'm not arguing that a woman may have spiritual authority over another man within the Church and probably could have phrased what I stated better but the point is that some people are looking for any opportunity to fret when they might learn something from a woman. It certainly didn't freak out King Lemuel.
     
  25. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    So a woman can teach, as long as she is not in authority?
     
  26. Kenneth_Murphy

    Kenneth_Murphy Puritan Board Freshman

    Notice no women have posted in this thread .... (looks both way) ... (goes back into hiding) ...
     
  27. larryjf

    larryjf Puritan Board Senior

    yup
     
  28. Solus Christus

    Solus Christus Puritan Board Sophomore

    Another thing to point out (actually, my wife pointed this one out :p), is the PB isn't a church. So I'm not sure this can be applied here anyways.
     
  29. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    But if women are to refrain from all spheres of life whereby they teach men, then it does not matter that the PB is not a church, it is still in gross violation of Scripture if we grant this assumption. So, is ANY and EVERY conversation about a Bible with a woman.


    okay, im going for a walk and going to wrestle with my son........and listen to my wife's godly advice today and be taught by her example.
     
  30. TimV

    TimV Puritanboard Botanist

    It's October already and this has been the biggest straw man I've seen all year. Going from two female evangalists in church planting activity teaching men the Gospel at the place of their ministry without any male supervision at all and comparing it to me asking the women at my church for advice with raising my 14 year old daughter :confused:
     
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