Ivan
Pastor
A good and interesting article by Dr. Tom Nettles in the Founders Journal:
Founders Ministries | Why Your Next Pastor
Founders Ministries | Why Your Next Pastor
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Yes, they should!
no, not right now, but I have great hope!
The twentieth-century slide into liberalism rode on the back of a growing indifference to the doctrines of grace...
The article brought a bit of a paradox to my mind: My blood-washed spirit is energized from hearing the wonderful truths taught by the doctrines of grace and all its adornments, which is totally contrary to and opposite of the energy which comes from fiery, charasmatic, pentecostal preaching! The more I consider the selfless nature of grace, the more I see the evil in everything taught outside of that nature.
I'm a bit perplexed by this. If you are talking about preaching that promotes speaking in tongues, being slayed in the spirit, etc, etc. I understand and agree. However, if you are talking about heart-felt, Spirit-led fiery preaching, I say blaze away?
Could you be a bit more specific?
apropo of nothing - I was Ivan's 400th "thank you"
The article brought a bit of a paradox to my mind: My blood-washed spirit is energized from hearing the wonderful truths taught by the doctrines of grace and all its adornments, which is totally contrary to and opposite of the energy which comes from fiery, charasmatic, pentecostal preaching! The more I consider the selfless nature of grace, the more I see the evil in everything taught outside of that nature.
I'm a bit perplexed by this. <B>If you are talking about preaching that promotes speaking in tongues, being slayed in the spirit,</B> etc, etc. I understand and agree. However, if you are talking about heart-felt, Spirit-led fiery preaching, I say blaze away?
Could you be a bit more specific?
I am talking about unsound preaching that is fiery, charasmatic, and pentecostal; pentecostal as far as speaking in tongues and being slayed in the spirit, but more generally the fiery and charasmatic voice behind false gospel.
When the doctrines of grace are preached, when the gospel is proclaimed, when Christ is glorified as He should be, and when revelation comes as a result, it produces in me an ineffable desire for God! in fact, it energizes my spirit and literally feeds my soul - work of the Holy Spirit.
And it is this I constrast with all other preaching; fiery, charasmatic preaching produces in many a spiritual high that is substanceless, just an emotional plateau for that week which gives its hearers a false sense of security and intimacy with God. It does not have to necessarily promote speaking in tongues, being slain in the spirit, or other pentecostal hogwash, it just has to be graceless. The article is written by a Baptist to Baptists about the importance of doctrinal integrity for the benefit of the church.
And I say it is a paradox to me because the preaching does not have to be fiery or charasmatic to produce in me a greater love for Jesus; indeed, it seems silly to some to be so overwhelmed with the truth of the gospel outside of a fiery, charasmatic mold! See?
I do apologize if I'm not getting my point across clearly, it is perfectly clear in my mind but is hard to articulate! But I would never consider heart-felt, Spirit-led fiery preaching evil.
So how it is for you in your church as a believer in the Doctrines of Grace?
So how it is for you in your church as a believer in the Doctrines of Grace?
Amen, brother Ivan. Thank you for taking interest in my thoughts! I enjoy PB for the simple fact of its members' sincere desire to honor God.
As for your inquiry, I ought to first state that my home church is not officially reformed or wholly-Calvinistic. I will next state that God has truly used experiences in my church to shape my understanding of the Doctrines of Grace. A year ago I thought Limited Atonement to be heresy, but now it is to me an example of the power of God and actually affects my evangelism. The same can be said of Irresistabe Grace and Perseverance.
Believing the doctrines of grace and attending a non-Calvinist church may seem conflicting, but God has used this for my good; I have been learning of Him patience and longsuffering; I have known and loved the church's people for many years, and now being enlightened [of tulip] I wish not to forsake them, but rather stay in the church and share the salty flavor, if you will.
God has taught me to have patience during conversations when I myself want to basically argue with the person about their error and on behalf of the doctrines of grace.
And the good Lord opened the door for me to lead the youth group of the church, so there I am able to test myself in my presentation and overall understanding of the gospel of grace, in a more practical setting than alone in my studies.
I have not established any kind of personal agenda as pastor of my church. I simply preach the Gospel. As different doctrines present themselves as you go through the Bible I address it. I have not had a problem with this approach, but not that I ever won't.
Taking a more irenic approach is the way to go for me. It's my personality. I have been able, through the leadership of the Holy Spirit, to guide people to embrace the DoG more and more. I pray always that it is done for the Glory of God.
Joshua said:I'm going to begin work soon on what will be my doctoral thesis:
Why Southern Baptist Churches Should Become Reformed Presbyterians
Only joshing ... maybe
I'm going to begin work soon on what will be my doctoral thesis:
Why Southern Baptist Churches Should Become Reformed Presbyterians
Only joshing ... maybe
I'm going to begin work soon on what will be my doctoral thesis:
Why Southern Baptist Churches Should Become Reformed Presbyterians
Only joshing ... maybe
The SBC has fallen so far from their forebearers and the Doctrines of Grace that they had seen too far gone. But, the conservative resurgence showed a desire to return to the Word of God and the growing numbers of Calvinists within the SBC is greatly encouraging. May the Lord give Al Mohler MANY MANY more years to leave his stamp upon the denomination. Nearly a third of recent SBC seminary grads are 5 pt Calvinists!
But, Josh, all of those books on infant baptism I've been reading have a certain logic to them that is VERY difficult to resist. I keep hearing a voice beckoning "come into the light . . . come into the light." Then, Ivan kicks me in my butt and the dream dissipates.
Dennis, your stat of one third of SBC graduates are Calvinist is interesting, but I wonder if you meant one third from Southern Seminary is Calvinist? If one third from all our seminaries are Calvinist I'm going to have party!
The total number of survey respondents was 2149, of those 2134 were usable.
By seminary: Golden Gate (N=270), New Orleans (N=287), Midwestern (N=148), Southeastern (N=403), Southwestern (N=978), Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary (N=11), Southern Seminary (N=52).
1,234 respondents serving as pastors or staff members at a Southern Baptist church. Within this group, 527 serve as senior or solo pastor of congregation.
Ivan, the statistic is for ALL seminary graduates between 1998 and 2004 (that were surveyed anyhow). 29% of that group claimed to be 5pt Calvinists. Also note, Southern was UNDERsampled in this survey.
Dennis, your stat of one third of SBC graduates are Calvinist is interesting, but I wonder if you meant one third from Southern Seminary is Calvinist? If one third from all our seminaries are Calvinist I'm going to have party!
Findings from research conducted by the North American Mission Board – 2007NAMB New Millennium Ministers Study –
All 1998-2004 Masters level seminary graduates from Golden Gate, New Orleans, Midwestern, Southeastern, Southwestern and the Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary were invited to complete the survey late 2006. A limited subset of Southern graduates was available for the study.
The total number of survey respondents was 2149, of those 2134 were usable.
By seminary: Golden Gate (N=270), New Orleans (N=287), Midwestern (N=148), Southeastern (N=403), Southwestern (N=978), Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary (N=11), Southern Seminary (N=52).
1,234 respondents serving as pastors or staff members at a Southern Baptist church. Within this group, 527 serve as senior or solo pastor of congregation.
Ivan, the statistic is for ALL seminary graduates between 1998 and 2004 (that were surveyed anyhow). 29% of that group claimed to be 5pt Calvinists. Also note, Southern was UNDERsampled in this survey.
I'm going to begin work soon on what will be my doctoral thesis:
Why Southern Baptist Churches Should Become Reformed Presbyterians
Only joshing ... maybe
I have no problem with that. Just as long as Presbyterians become credo-baptists.
My pastor claims to be a Calvinist. I pray he begins to be so.
I have a friend that went to Southern and he said that all the students there were Calvinist. I'm sure thats not comepletely true but that does say something. SBTS is now the largest seminary in the USA.
The largest U.S. seminary, California-based Fuller Theological Seminary, reported a head count of 4,128 students for two years in a row
The second-largest U.S. seminary was Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, with 3,005 students.
The third- and fourth-place schools are also Southern Baptist seminaries--in New Orleans (2,813) and Louisville, Kentucky (2,258).
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Massachusetts (2,011), is the fifth-largest.
Dallas Theological Seminary edged past Asbury Theological Seminary for the sixth spot in 2004, registering 1,847 for 2004 compared to 1,724 at the seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky.
It's been an interesting time of late in the SBC. We have those who are fully supportive, such as Tom Ascol and the Founders Ministries, along with other. We have the present SBC President, Johnny Hunt, who has said some outrageous things in the past about Calvinism with his bunch. And we have men like Dave Dockery, President of Union University, and Danny Akin, President of Southeasten Baptist Theological Seminary, who are open and sympathetic.
Johnny doesn't really come out against Calvinism anymore but he does have others come to pulpit and say those things.
Well, not while he is the SBC president. That would be terribly unPC. I think he uses his pit bulls, of which it is reported that none wear lipstick.
I'm told that Fuller now boasts more than 4,300 students. Here is what one report from a couple of years ago said.
The largest U.S. seminary, California-based Fuller Theological Seminary, reported a head count of 4,128 students for two years in a row
The second-largest U.S. seminary was Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, with 3,005 students.
The third- and fourth-place schools are also Southern Baptist seminaries--in New Orleans (2,813) and Louisville, Kentucky (2,258).
Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Massachusetts (2,011), is the fifth-largest.
Dallas Theological Seminary edged past Asbury Theological Seminary for the sixth spot in 2004, registering 1,847 for 2004 compared to 1,724 at the seminary in Wilmore, Kentucky.
I'd be happy if Mohler's place was larger than Mouw's.
Again, Presbyterians have always been credobaptists.
(Rom 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Huh? The only point that I'm making, Randy, is that Presbyterians do believe in believer's baptism, which is what the word credobaptism means. So I'm not sure where the above came from. BTW, my church does indeed require a credo confession. So would a Presbyterian church that's baptizing an adult.