Who holds authority in my life?

[Challer]

I would be scared out of my boots to presume I should withhold fellowship from either of those men. I suspect both are much nearer to God than I am.

They may very well be, Sir. But that isn't the criteria for who we are or aren't to have fellowship with, at least not biblically speaking. I've posted this list elsewhere, but there are at least six different types of believers we are to separate from:

1. The sinning brother—Sin by one brother against another about which the sinning brother will not be reconciled (Matt. 18:15–17).

2. The immoral brother—Moral sins that the sinning brother continues to practice. These are fornication, covetousness, railing, drunkenness, and extortion (1 Cor. 5:11).

3. The unequally yoked brother—The doctrinal, or theological, error of idolatry, or being unequally yoked with unbelievers (1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Cor. 6:14).

4. The lazy brother—The sin of laziness in which the brother will not work for a living (2 Thess. 3:6–15).

5. The disobedient brother—Open disobedience to Scripture (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6–14).

6. The heretical brother—Heresy, or deviant doctrine, that is promoted out of self-willed divisiveness (Titus 3:10).

But specifically with respect to secondary separation, it's a pretty well established practice among some, even as recently as MLJ and Billy Graham.

Secondary Separation | Dr Peter Masters

When to Stand Apart from Biblical Error. Here is a Gospel-preserving and church-protecting duty designed for our blessing.

metropolitantabernacle.org

 

[MyCrows]

@Challer

It's OK bud. I'm PCA, and I still love you.

 

[Challer]

@Challer

It's OK bud. I'm PCA, and I still love you.

@MyCrows

Love you too, bud! On the record!

 

[Northern Crofter]

They may very well be, Sir. But that isn't the criteria for who we are or aren't to have fellowship with, at least not biblically speaking. I've posted this list elsewhere, but there are at least six different types of believers we are to separate from:

1. The sinning brother—Sin by one brother against another about which the sinning brother will not be reconciled (Matt. 18:15–17).

2. The immoral brother—Moral sins that the sinning brother continues to practice. These are fornication, covetousness, railing, drunkenness, and extortion (1 Cor. 5:11).

3. The unequally yoked brother—The doctrinal, or theological, error of idolatry, or being unequally yoked with unbelievers (1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Cor. 6:14).

4. The lazy brother—The sin of laziness in which the brother will not work for a living (2 Thess. 3:6–15).

5. The disobedient brother—Open disobedience to Scripture (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6–14).

6. The heretical brother—Heresy, or deviant doctrine, that is promoted out of self-willed divisiveness (Titus 3:10).

But specifically with respect to secondary separation, it's a pretty well established practice among some, even as recently as MLJ and Billy Graham.

Secondary Separation | Dr Peter Masters

When to Stand Apart from Biblical Error. Here is a Gospel-preserving and church-protecting duty designed for our blessing.

metropolitantabernacle.org

Is it Biblical to apply #3 to a professing believer?

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

This is the issue I am dealing with. I am pretty sure I know the answer to this one; but a part of me feels bad if so.

My local church has really been pushing for people to minster to the community; in some sort of capacity. For a while I have been kind of setting that to the side and doing these Puritan eBooks. And yes, I feel bad when I think about just stopping doing them; but I feel even more convicted when I am in church, and hear the Pastor trying to direct the congregation to embrace evangelism and the thought of me going home and just editing more books. My problem is, I really dont have time to do both. I work full-time, I read my Bible regularly, I work-out; and this leaves like 3 hours a day free-time. Before I begin evangelizing, I know I need to study for a bit, but again, I cant both edit books and study. Some of these books are so big, that only doing a few pages a day would take years for them to be complete.

I am almost certain that our lives should first be dictated by the Bible and the Holy Spirit; but that we should also be directed by the local church. That while I may have desires to do this or that; the Preacher is in effect invested as the "mouth-piece" of God to the congregation; and congregants should be open to be swayed by the way God has directed his servant to lead his church.

This is not a problem of not being able to do one or the other; but not being able to do both. And if I feel bad for either giving up one, or neglecting the other; shouldnt the local church have pre-eminence and the final say in my decision either way? I think so, but I am just wanting to know if I am off or headed in the right direction? I have said I have wanted to do these books, but I am under no official or contractual obligation to do so; does this leave me the freedom to change course?

Can you be creative? I just talked to my elder about evangelizing more. I was thinking once a week. His wise suggestion was to use the time our church does community events and pass out tracts during those times. This way I can still be devoted to my other investments and serving in the church.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I was going to weigh in on a few issues raised in this thread in relation to separatism, but it might be better if a new thread were started on this subject as it has derailed the discussion from the original point of the OP.

 

[Ed Walsh]

A pastor does a disservice by encouraging someone unqualified or unmotivated?

So if I’m a lazy Christian (in the context of evangelism), my Pastor would be doing a disservice by encouraging me to do something I’m not motivated to do?

Am I reading this right?

Hi C.H.,

You make a good point, but that was not my intended implication. But it's still a good point.

Maybe a better way is for someone to ask the question more like this example. I'm trying to say what I inferred was your meaning.
Instead of somewhat subjective, vague words like unmotivated, lazy, etc.

Question: A pastor does a disservice by encouraging someone [who has disqualified themselves from Christian service by allowing life-dominating sin to go unmortified]

Answer: A person like the one I'm described would more likely be lovingly dealt with and prodded to get his house in order or face charges by the Session and the displeasure of our great King Jesus.

Your Conclusion: To me, your second line seemed a bit more like an attempted reductio ad absurdum, as if your unspoken words went more like this.

Which pastor & member of the Puritan Board do you think might agree with your conclusion?
So, why are you asking me if that's a legit takeaway of what I said?

I must quit and return to work before my lazy, good-for-nothing lifestyle disqualifies me from Christian service.
Pastors should be among the best–and tireless–encouragers in the world.

Goodnight,

Ed

 

[Phil D.]

1. The sinning brother—Sin by one brother against another about which the sinning brother will not be reconciled (Matt. 18:15–17).

2. The immoral brother—Moral sins that the sinning brother continues to practice. These are fornication, covetousness, railing, drunkenness, and extortion (1 Cor. 5:11).

3. The unequally yoked brother—The doctrinal, or theological, error of idolatry, or being unequally yoked with unbelievers (1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Cor. 6:14).

4. The lazy brother—The sin of laziness in which the brother will not work for a living (2 Thess. 3:6–15).

5. The disobedient brother—Open disobedience to Scripture (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6–14).

6. The heretical brother—Heresy, or deviant doctrine, that is promoted out of self-willed divisiveness (Titus 3:10).

Which of these categories do you apparently place Piper in, and by association, Beeke?

Also, you do realize all these links are to the ESV...

 

[Challer]

Which of these categories do you apparently place Piper in, and by association, Beeke?

Also, you do realize all these links are to the ESV...

First, you’re hilarious. Also, fair question. I’ll note that I said at least six, but I do think we have a duty to also separate from false teachers and worldliness. I believe John Piper’s teachings on Christian hedonism, when taken to their logical conclusion, may meet that criteria.

Is John Piper a false teacher?

Category 3 Verdict: Concerns over John Piper are exceedingly valid, and he should be avoided. Because of the possibility of reasonable doubt, we hesitate to apply the label false teacher. Preface P…

evangelicaldarkweb.org

There are also other issues such as his commendation of Beth Moore, etc. Some of which are addressed in this book (available for free with Kindle Unlimited):

Christian Hedonism?: A biblical examination of John Piper's teaching By E. S. Williams

As for Dr. Joel Beeke, I sincerely love the man and have many of his books on my shelf. But his unwillingness to separate from folks like John Piper does give me pause. However, both men are practically celebrities, and as such are already at a far greater distance from me than arm’s length. However, if I did have such an opportunity as MLJ had with Billy Graham, I imagine I’d find myself making a similar choice.

 

[Polanus1561]

First, you’re hilarious. Also, fair question. I’ll note that I said at least six, but I do think we have a duty to also separate from false teachers and worldliness. I believe John Piper’s teachings on Christian hedonism, when taken to their logical conclusion, may meet that criteria.

Is John Piper a false teacher?

Category 3 Verdict: Concerns over John Piper are exceedingly valid, and he should be avoided. Because of the possibility of reasonable doubt, we hesitate to apply the label false teacher. Preface P…

evangelicaldarkweb.org

As for Dr. Joel Beeke, I sincerely love the man and have many of his books on my shelf. But his unwillingness to separate from folks like John Piper does give me pause. However, both men are practically celebrities, and as such are already at a far greater distance from me than arm’s length. However, if I did have such an opportunity as MLJ had with Billy Graham, I imagine I’d find myself making a similar choice.

What recent Beeke and Piper 'collaborations' are you having in mind?

 

[Challer]

What recent Beeke and Piper 'collaborations' are you having in mind?

Writing articles for each other, endorsing one another, participating on the same panels, etc.

Things along these lines:

https://joelbeeke.org/come-lord-Jesus-with-john-piper/

The Christian Ministry: A Readerâs Guide to a Christian Classic

New books on pastoral ministry appear each year. Only a few endure for centuries, including this classic by Charles Bridges.

www.desiringgod.org

Going back some years:

Speaker Panel with Beeke, Miller, Chan, Rankin, and Piper

Notes taken during the session. Francis Chan (FC), Paul Miller (PM), Joel Beeke (JB), Jerry Rankin (JR), John Piper (JP) Francis, who are you praying for to win the Super Bowl? FC: Green Bay. Dr. Beeke, why has Puritan, reformed…

www.desiringgod.org

Selling John Piper’s books on RHB, etc.

Search

www.heritagebooks.org

 

[Polanus1561]

“Come, Lord Jesus” with John Piper - Dr. Joel Beeke

We are far too earth – bound in our day; our tent stakes are plunged too deeply in the soil of this earth. Joel Beeke and John Piper.

joelbeeke.org

So a discussion on the return of Christ (which is one of the few uniting doctrines that still exists), and a book overview on Piper's page... yeah, I don't see what you are seeing. But I will leave it at that brother.

 

[Challer]

So a discussion on the return of Christ (which is one of the few uniting doctrines that still exists), and a book overview on Piper's page... yeah, I don't see what you are seeing. But I will leave it at that brother.

Apologies for being brief. I tried to add a few more examples. If selling Mr. Piper’s books doesn’t count, I don’t know what does. I’ve avoided Hobby Lobby for some of the books they’re selling.

 

[Phil D.]

I’ve avoided Hobby Lobby for some of the books they’re selling.

Do you shop Walmart, Sam's, Costco, or any convenience or grocery stores?

 

[Challer]

Do you shop Walmart, Sam's, Costco, or any convenience or grocery stores?

Of course, and out of necessity. In the same way I’d abstain from an unnecessary business endeavor with an unbeliever but still work for a secular company.

I suppose you can balk at me for not drawing the lines in the sand quite where you do, but I’ve followed my conscience to the glory of God and in obedience to God’s Word (or at least as I understand it) in these areas, often at great personal cost. No doubt I’ve fallen short in countless other ways.

I may have even erred somehow throughout all of this. But I’ve certainly struggled (and am struggling) to see how that might be.

 

[Challer]

@davejonescue Apologies for derailing your thread so thoroughly.

As for other folks, happy to chat about this in another post.

 

[davejonescue]

@davejonescue Apologies for derailing your thread so thoroughly.

As for other folks, happy to chat about this in another post.

No worries, I have been guilty, probably more than once of unintentionally derailing a thread. I was afforded grace, and also my inquiry was entertained; there is no reason at all not to share the same grace with others.

 

[davejonescue]

Thank you everybody for the good feedback; sorry I am late to the convo as I was at work. It gave me many things to think about. I hadnt really considered doing the editing a "gift" as far as a talent goes, but more along the lines as a gift to be able to do it. And it is true, a Pastor can make a general concession to the congregation in the hopes that everyone is at least doing something; and evangelism doesnt necessarily mean standing on a corner handing out tracts to everyone. I think I have to step back and go with that original slogan I was told early in my faith "where the Lord guides, he provides." He has provided me with the tools and the time to edit, and he has given me success where I stay faithful. On the flip side he has not provided the means for me to get educated formally, nor has he drawn me into the circles in my local church where ministry duties are facilitated; which I consider as much providence as intent. Considering this, and the counsel given, I will continue to at least, Lord willing, edit the three main works I intend on doing, i.e. Greenhams, Downames "Warfare," and the Puritan Poetry collection; which the former two are already hundreds of pages in, and the latter is already organized just waiting to be edited. And if at that point, the conscience is still troubled, I can depart in an orderly fashion; rather than possibly exiting rashly over a misunderstanding of what it means to serve.

Thank you everyone for the help. Every ones counsel is greatly appreciated.

 

[CovenantPatriot87]

Evangelism in the context of the SBC, at least in my local church; would look like either Intentional evangelism; i. e. handing out Bibles, tracts, flyers to the church and talking to be people about Jesus; Environmental evangelism, i.e. talking to people around us about Jesus when the situation arises; and Lifestyle evangelism, i.e. living lives that are separate from the world in which testify to the truths of the Gospel. The first goal is to lead people to Jesus. The next goal is to lead them to our church so they can be edified, grow, and learn proper Christianity by those who have been given the authority to teach and shepherd.

The latter two I already try to practice. The first, Intentional evangelism, is the area I want to work on consuming the majority of my time. This is what I feel the church really calling the people to do. And the method by which that is done will vary within the confines of what is deemed appropriate for someone not called to preach.

Why not just be a friend to the people you interact with everyday? In time they will give you a hearing if you can just be there for them. My question to you is, can you be a friend to people if they never come to faith in Christ? Your in for the long haul bud if you say yes.

 

[davejonescue]

Why not just be a friend to the people you interact with everyday? In time they will give you a hearing if you can just be there for them. My question to you is, can you be a friend to people if they never come to faith in Christ? Your in for the long haul bud if you say yes.

I definitely try to do that. But if they are unbelievers, I really have no choice but to make them friends with a small "f" if that makes sense. Not having the Spirit there is very little commonality not only in our view of the world, but in the way we will handle various situations and the way we live our lives. When it concerns holding out to see if a friend of mine will come to faith; I of all people must be patient and have hope. For many years of my life I was the worst of sinners; drugs, promiscuity, crime, jail, and the list can go on, and yet, when it pleased God he opened my eyes. But until the evidence of regeneration is present, at best they may be friends, but we can never be brothers.

 

[davejonescue]

After consideration for the past couple of days; and really thinking this through, I have come to the conclusion that editing miscellaneous Puritan books should not be a priority in my life right now. There are literally hundreds, if not over a thousand Puritan books anybody can get online for free. Since I have not taken the time to actually read the Puritans; and instead have found myself occupied by editing books, the former seems more pertinent to my spiritual growth. In the beginning, I really set out to accomplish getting Puritan Search done; which also led to the awesome updated EEBO-TCP by Project Puritas. But Puritan Search came out of a desire to have a fully functional "Puritan Commentary." Then seeing the possibility of editing so many books; I kind of got hooked on doing it. But at this point, it is really only adding another book to the stack which is already a huge pile. Basically, I got off focus and sidetracked from what I really want to do; which is take advantage of all the free Seminary Lectures online, and try to prepare myself to be an effective witness in my community and local church.

I have done my best to make all the work I and others have done open, and freely accessible to others, who may be interested in editing or publishing Puritan works; but honestly, I am really tired of owning so many of these wonderful works and not having the time to read them. Maybe one day I will go back to editing; but I have no desire to do this as a form of employment, its just not my thing; and I kind of feel like the Israelites who were not content with manna, now I have books coming out my nostrils. I (with the help of others) were able to do Puritan Search, and set a good base for others to edit over 6,500 works. I was also able to edit over 20 books for free distribution on Monergism. But during this process, I simply cannot deny that there is already an overwhelming abundance of Puritan literature out there at no cost; which at times, many times; makes trying to get one more out there seem futile. Anything I could ever wonder on what the Puritans said on any given subject, I can already look up with a stroke of a key. Mission accomplished. Now, though it will be hard (knowing so much more can be done,) it is time to move on. My deepest appreciation for all who have contributed to getting to where we are now, and hopefully our small contribution has pushed Puritan Studies a bit further. And thank you all for your encouragement.

Even with saying this, I am overjoyed looking forward to being able to read for myself these works in their entirety. And looking forward to letting such godly wisdom draw me closer to our Lord.

 

[0isez]

This is the issue I am dealing with. I am pretty sure I know the answer to this one; but a part of me feels bad if so.

My local church has really been pushing for people to minster to the community; in some sort of capacity. For a while I have been kind of setting that to the side and doing these Puritan eBooks. And yes, I feel bad when I think about just stopping doing them; but I feel even more convicted when I am in church, and hear the Pastor trying to direct the congregation to embrace evangelism and the thought of me going home and just editing more books. My problem is, I really dont have time to do both. I work full-time, I read my Bible regularly, I work-out; and this leaves like 3 hours a day free-time. Before I begin evangelizing, I know I need to study for a bit, but again, I cant both edit books and study. Some of these books are so big, that only doing a few pages a day would take years for them to be complete.

I am almost certain that our lives should first be dictated by the Bible and the Holy Spirit; but that we should also be directed by the local church. That while I may have desires to do this or that; the Preacher is in effect invested as the "mouth-piece" of God to the congregation; and congregants should be open to be swayed by the way God has directed his servant to lead his church.

This is not a problem of not being able to do one or the other; but not being able to do both. And if I feel bad for either giving up one, or neglecting the other; shouldnt the local church have pre-eminence and the final say in my decision either way? I think so, but I am just wanting to know if I am off or headed in the right direction? I have said I have wanted to do these books, but I am under no official or contractual obligation to do so; does this leave me the freedom to change course?

Hi David,
I have for many years been under the yoke of Fundamentalist (I am using a capital "F" to separate the sect of religious believers from the common definition of fundamentalism). convictions about evangelism, marriage, work, play and life in general. The impression I got from Fundamentalist churches is that everything had to comply with the pastor's view of all things; temporal and spiritual, spoken or implied. Most Charismatic churches that I attended (the word charismatic as I am using it here is not serving to single out a particular denomination but applies to all congregants who allot their pastors the kind power and privilege reserved only for patriarchs and apostles) emphasized the role of a pastor as God's representative on earth and to the degree of faultlessness. The pastors I knew wallowed in the esteem the congregation gave them and to disagree or disobey was to challenge God himself.
All I came away with is a distorted view of Christian service which, if followed to the letter would have shipwrecked my family and my faith.
To give you and example of a real situation while under the influence of one of these Fundy churches;
Many years ago, I remember coming home late in the evening to a pregnant wife in tears and she asked where I was all this time and told me that she needed me at home to help her. Where was I? Painting some congregants kitchen with some other volunteers from the church.
This vexed me deeply. Why was Christ telling me one thing about Christian service and the wife telling something else? Was not the needs of the church more important than common domestic stuff at home? Where was the glory in that?
How could I hear "Well done thou good and faithful servant" (Matt 25:23) if I didn't obey God through the church? These types of pastors never told anyone to go home and take care of domestics (as I should have) but to let our light shine in service to Christ for others to see so that they may see my good works and glorify my Father in heaven (Matt 5:15). These and other versus (especially pertaining to evangelism and service) were wielded as a hammer of the law convicting innocent believers into a false sense of sin.
Long story short, thanks to Jesus Christ my lord and savior who through his mercy let me discover reformed theology, the medicine for Fundamentalism and Charismatics. Our reformed heritage and theology involving our creeds, catechisms, confessions and cannons are meant to clarify and reveal scripture to us for the purpose of walking in truth at a lasting and steady pace for a lifetime. Not the jerking around in every direction at the whim of a person who's convictions may not be yours. These types of churches will burn you out and throw you away. Study our reformed heritage, take them to heart my friend and free your mind from the tyranny of Fundamentalists as I did.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

In line with Ken's recent post, I hate to say it, but be on guard of pastors that are controlling. I've seen this quite a few times and it is very unhealthy for sheep that want to submit to their elders. We had a pastor who was very controlling, and I didn't quite realize the full extent of it until we were shepherded by somebody else.

 

[davejonescue]

Hi David,
I have for many years been under the yoke of Fundamentalist (I am using a capital "F" to separate the sect of religious believers from the common definition of fundamentalism). convictions about evangelism, marriage, work, play and life in general. The impression I got from Fundamentalist churches is that everything had to comply with the pastor's view of all things; temporal and spiritual, spoken or implied. Most Charismatic churches that I attended (the word charismatic as I am using it here is not serving to single out a particular denomination but applies to all congregants who allot their pastors the kind power and privilege reserved only for patriarchs and apostles) emphasized the role of a pastor as God's representative on earth and to the degree of faultlessness. The pastors I knew wallowed in the esteem the congregation gave them and to disagree or disobey was to challenge God himself.
All I came away with is a distorted view of Christian service which, if followed to the letter would have shipwrecked my family and my faith.
To give you and example of a real situation while under the influence of one of these Fundy churches;
Many years ago, I remember coming home late in the evening to a pregnant wife in tears and she asked where I was all this time and told me that she needed me at home to help her. Where was I? Painting some congregants kitchen with some other volunteers from the church.
This vexed me deeply. Why was Christ telling me one thing about Christian service and the wife telling something else? Was not the needs of the church more important than common domestic stuff at home? Where was the glory in that?
How could I hear "Well done thou good and faithful servant" (Matt 25:23) if I didn't obey God through the church? These types of pastors never told anyone to go home and take care of domestics (as I should have) but to let our light shine in service to Christ for others to see so that they may see my good works and glorify my Father in heaven (Matt 5:15). These and other versus (especially pertaining to evangelism and service) were wielded as a hammer of the law convicting innocent believers into a false sense of sin.
Long story short, thanks to Jesus Christ my lord and savior who through his mercy let me discover reformed theology, the medicine for Fundamentalism and Charismatics. Our reformed heritage and theology involving our creeds, catechisms, confessions and cannons are meant to clarify and reveal scripture to us for the purpose of walking in truth at a lasting and steady pace for a lifetime. Not the jerking around in every direction at the whim of a person who's convictions may not be yours. These types of churches will burn you out and throw you away. Study our reformed heritage, take them to heart my friend and free your mind from the tyranny of Fundamentalists as I did.

Thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate everything you are saying. Our pastor; and church in general is nothing like you described. In fact our pastor regularly talks about the need for family to be the foremost, if not the preeminent ministry for those who have them. Also, our pastor is also very humble and has never mentioned any type of authority allocated to himself, nor do him, or the elders try and lord their positions over others. While it has been mentioned the sorrowful duties of having to enact church discipline to unrepentant congregants, it is not a re-occurring theme. My position on the authority of those in leadership does not come from a self-imposed authority from those in those positions; but from a regular reading of the scriptures. I know I am falling why behind here, but I am on my 10th time reading the Bible cover to cover; the second time this year, and honestly, I cant help but see the reverence given to those whom God has raised to lead his people.

Also, my pastor is not wishy-washy. He has been gently admonishing the congregation to be effective witnesses in our community since he took the pulpit in 2021. Though I am naturally rebellious, the truth is, God has raised his army with people in certain positions. If everyone were a pastor; who would greet the guests? My life, is my life to a degree; but a sacrificial life is one that is lived not for self, but for the cause. If our cause is Christ, and that cause is most clearly displayed through the local church, then the local church should be one of the foremost causes we live for. I do not have a family, nor do I desire one. Lord willing I will never have to choose between ecclesiastical or domestic service. And as such, I am free to give myself fully to this cause. My church is far from fundy. But again, I appreciate the response.

I think what it boils down to, possibly, is some people either do not want to be, or are ashamed of being led. I am not ashamed of being led. If God wanted to make me a leader it is no harder for him to make this stone sing than to turn water into wine. But he has not. So I do not really pray "God, raise me up." as much as I pray "God, keep those in charge of me."