When is it OK for women to prophesy?--THREADS MERGED

[biblelighthouse]

I understand the argument for barring women from leading in prayer or exercising the gift of prophesying in church, since it is forbidden for women in public worship (1 Cor. 14.34-35)

In fact, the church I go to practices this very thing. Women are silent during the meeting (except when everyone is singing). Men preach, lead the prayer, etc.

However, this raises another question:

If women are barred from exercising the gift of prophesying in church, then under what conditions/circumstances are they not barred from it?

In other words, when it is Scripturally ok for a woman to exercise her gift of prophesying?

{Thread merged by Mod}

[Edited on 12-2-2005 by PAIN IN THE NECK]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Joe,
Can you define how you understand the term?

 

[heartoflesh]

I'm just curious how you interpret 1 Cor. 14.34-35 to be about praying. I don't know what the verse means, to be honest, but how do you get praying out of it?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Rick,
For a woman to pray openly (audibly) in church, she would be breaking her silence.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

 

[heartoflesh]

Originally posted by PAIN IN THE NECK
Rick,
For a woman to pray openly (audibly) in church, she would be breaking her silence.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Wouldn't they be doing that when they sing too?

I always thought this had to do with teaching, but what do I know.

 

[biblelighthouse]

Good point: I'll open up a seperate thread to discuss singing in particular.

 

[biblelighthouse]

Is it OK for women to sing in church?

Don't worry . . . I am not advocating the total silence of women . . . I just want to hash out something for the sake of consistency.


If women are supposed to be totally silent in church (1 Cor. 14:34-35), then why is it ok for them to sing?

However, on the flip side, if singing is OK for women, and is not covered under 1 Cor. 14:34-35, then is it possible that there are other forms of non-silence which are OK for women? For example, could a woman simply give thanks for something God did for her, without involving doctrinal teaching?

In short, how do we know where to draw the line regarding women and silence in the church? If we don't go for total non-silence, and we also don't go for total silence, then how do we know where to draw the line?




[Edited on 12-1-2005 by biblelighthouse]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Yes; it is corporate. In this, the woman is not usurping any federal headship (who ever that may be at the time) by speaking individually.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by Rick Larson

Originally posted by PAIN IN THE NECK
Rick,
For a woman to pray openly (audibly) in church, she would be breaking her silence.

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Wouldn't they be doing that when they sing too?

I always thought this had to do with teaching, but what do I know.

It has to do with usurping the federal head. In singing, it is done corporately, not individually. In this way, the woman does not usurp her federal head (whomever that may be at the time).

 

[heartoflesh]

Originally posted by PAIN IN THE NECK.... In this way, the woman does not usurp her federal head (whomever that may be at the time).

Why do I feel like I'm in way over my head here? I'll try to read some of the articles that have been posted and get up to speed.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Rick,
I am my wife's federal head. As well, my daughter, Zoe. Danielle and Nicole do not reside with me and are in the world. As far as I can tell, they are apostate. If they weren't, I would be their federal head still. As adults, if single, either I or their pastor would be, depending upon the situation and setting. If I died, and they remain single, their pastor would be federal head.

 

[Romans922]

Originally posted by PAIN IN THE NECK
Rick,
I am my wife's federal head. As well, my daughter, Zoe. Danielle and Nicole do not reside with me and are in the world. As far as I can tell, they are apostate. If they weren't, I would be their federal head still. As adults, if single, either I or their pastor would be, depending upon the situation and setting. If I died, and they remain single, their pastor would be federal head.

Where do you get any of this from Scripture? Specifically dealing with their pastor being their federal head? Why not the elders of the church? If so, where is that in Scripture?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Andrew,
A woman will always have a federal head over her. Do you agree with this?

 

[Scott Bushey]

Christ is my federal head:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Man
G435
ἀνηÌÏ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.

Correlating verses: Matt 7:24, Matt 7:26, Matt 12:41, Matt 14:21, James 1:12,

I am my wife's federal head:

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

If a woman does not have a father or spouse and lives alone, her federal head would be the pastor of her church first, the elders and then Christ.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

[Edited on 12-2-2005 by PAIN IN THE NECK]

 

[biblelighthouse]

Originally posted by PAIN IN THE NECK

A woman will always have a federal head over her. Do you agree with this?

That's a difficult question. In general, I would agree. But it seems that there might be exceptions in some cases.

Consider this Scripture:

Numbers 30

1 And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded.

2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth;

4 And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her; then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand.

5 But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the LORD shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her.

6 And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul;

7 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.

8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.

9 But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.

10 And if she vowed in her husband's house, or bound her soul by a bond with an oath;

11 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her, and disallowed her not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.

12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the LORD shall forgive her.

13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.

14 But if her husband altogether hold his peace at her from day to day; then he establisheth all her vows, or all her bonds, which are upon her: he confirmeth them, because he held his peace at her in the day that he heard them.

15 But if he shall any ways make them void after that he hath heard them; then he shall bear her iniquity.

16 These are the statutes, which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, between the father and his daughter, being yet in her youth in her father's house.

Verse 16 sums up the main focuses of the chapter:
1) unmarried women still in their father's house
2) married women

And in both cases, they definitely have federal heads. In both cases, their federal head can annul a vow she made, and God will release her from the vow.

However, the exception seems to come in verse 9. If a widow makes a vow, then she is bound to it, period. Unlike the unmarried virgin, and unlike the married woman, the widow's vow cannot be annulled by anybody.

If she did have a human federal head, such as a priest/elder/etc., then it would follow that her federal head would be able to annul her vow. But this is not the case.


Thus, it does not appear that she has a federal head (other than Christ himself).

 

[Romans922]

Originally posted by PAIN IN THE NECK


If a woman does not have a father or spouse and lives alone, her federal head would be the pastor of her church first, the elders and then Christ.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

So if the woman does not have a father or spouse and lives alone, this means she is single and/or a widow. Why would her federal head then be FIRST the pastor of her church? Is the PASTOR in any higher of a position than the elders of the church?

And are you saying, if there is no pastor or elders then and only then is her federal head Christ? Seems a little out of the ordinary that she wouldn't have pastor/elders, and also seems that Christ would be last in that picture to be her head.

The most important question to answer for me is "Is the PASTOR in any higher of a position than the elders of the church to be a single/widow's federal head?" I guess I might also ask, since I believe I am called to be a pastor, when and where did this requirement become a part of a pastor's role? Especially first before the elders or any other person in the church.

 

[ChristopherPaul]

I agree with Scott for the most part, but like Andrew am not so sure that the Pastor has a special headship over the elders.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Originally posted by ChristopherPaul
I agree with Scott for the most part, but like Andrew am not so sure that the Pastor has a special headship over the elders.

Chris, Andrew,
I hear you. My mistake. I should have said Pastor/elder. There is no thing biblical about a senior pastor! The pastor or elders would be federal head via proxy if there are none to be had.

Andrew,
If the woman did not have a pastor, she has bigger problems:

WCF ch 25

II. The visible church, which is also catholic or universal under the gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]

2. I Cor. 1:2; 12:12-13; Psa. 2:8; Rev. 7:9; Rom. 15:9-12
3. I Cor. 7:14; Acts 2:39; Gen. 17:7-12; Ezek. 16:20-21; Rom. 11:16; see Gal. 3:7, 9, 14; Rom. 4:12, 16, 24

4. Matt. 13:47; Isa. 9:7; Luke 1:32-33; Acts 2:30-36; Col. 1:13
5. Eph. 2:19; 3:15
6. Acts 2:47

If she has no pastor, except for providential hinderance, she is showing herself to be apostate anyways, by not being attached to a local church; hence, Christ would as well, not be her federal head.

The Greek word used to describe the hierarchy 'MAN', does not necessarily imply husband, father or relative. If none of these situations are available, the woman's federal head will be a man, i.e. next in line: pastor/elder. In no way is Christ demoted by utilizing this hierarchy as He is the one who has implemented the protocol for His church and it's members. Assuredly, Christ is King, and the head over all; he rules. But one needs to understand and differentiate here in regards to this mandate, else every woman can claim Christ as their federal head and then we would have anarchy! The church has protocol. This is one. It does not denigrate Christ in fulfilling the command.

Joe,
The widow would still fall under the mandate. As far as vows go, I cannot expound upon the parameters or special considerations.