What would it take to get the Reformed churches to unite?

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Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
If you're like me, you wonder why there are sooooo many reformed denominations. What would it take to get people to understand the need for Reformed Unity? I know I'm not the only one who feels this way. We all agree on the essentials of the gospel. We disagree a little on worship and church government. There is also disagreement on subscription. But what would it take for reformed folk to unite into one denomination? Let start with just the Presbyterians for now since they all claim the WCF. What would it take to convince them to unit?

One, for would be to convince them of the sin of divisions and the need for unity.

Two, the need for toleration and liberty of conscience in some matters without throwing a hissy fit and splitting off.

What would be a good long term strategy?
 
Maybe have representatives come from the different churchs and write a new confession or a declaration of confirmation of the WCF and its standards.

blade
 
The original unamended Westminster Confession was a great instrument of church unity in matters faith, worship, doctrine and practice. I believe its genius is in speaking to the major areas of the faith that need to be upheld (ie., justification, God, Bible, law of God, worship, etc.) and not saying too much when it would be unprofitable to do so (I have in mind the sections of eschatology which rule out certain errors but leave room for amillennialists and postmillennialits, for example, to both agree to the Confession). As a postmillenialist, I believe there will be a future golden age of the Church, brought about by the Holy Spirit working a new Reformation in the hearts of many. When this happens, there will be uniformity in worship, church government, and matters of faith. The examples of striving for such uniformity that we find in the Scottish National Covenants and the Solemn League and Covenants should be a good example to us. Exceptions to the original Confession ought not to be permitted because they bring division and decline. We all ought to bewail that which we have done to contribute to division in the body of Christ, and seek to speak the truth in love, without ecumenical compromise, thus promoting the unity prayed for by Christ in John 17 which is truly based on a common faithful Confession built upon the foundation of God's Word.
 
Well, I'm not opposed to a new Confession, because I think in light of recent heresies and errors, it would be good to clarify what we understand. But at the same time, I think that much of the errors we struggle with are already dealt with rather well in the Confessions we have. Post-modernism in nothing more than the same rebellion the church has always faced, especially in the 1st century Greek world. I'm not post-mil, but that doesn't keep me from being optimistic about the progress of the church in the world nor the realistic possibility of Reformed unity. It just bothers me wehn I ask some, what's the difference between the OPC and PCA? Or the ARP? And the answer is usually a shoudler shrugg and a um... "they do things a little different than us." It's just not acceptable (at least to me). What if Jesus were to ask them that question?
 
Pat,
Whether it be the WCF or a new confession (I don't personally believe we need one, even in light of the recent scenario's) the problem will always lie in the defining of the document. That is evidenced today. The PCA subscribes to the WCF, yet the PCA does not really understand it's own document of faith. Getting everyone on-board means educating the disciples..........
 
Any attempt to unify must be based on the truth, not on (gasp) feelings! As long as a personal relationship with God means to so many people that some feeling comes over them and that feeling means the Holy Spirit has given them a word (and this divorced from Scripture) and they are determined to follow this word in spite of its incompatability with Scripture (after all the Spirit has allowed them to understand this passage that everone else in all of history has misinterpreted). How can you have unity when everyone does what is right in his own eyes. In short as Scott has said above, the big problem is that many in the church are ignorant of their own faith and subscribe instead to some false gospel (often a form of Gnosticism):2cents:

[Edited on 3-7-2005 by lwadkins]
 
Well said, Scott. I agree.

I am going to go on a bit of a rant here. Please take it with a grain of salt.

As it stands now, I am not allowed to believe the WCF according to my conscience. Not that I make an exception some place, but that I am not persuaded of the same opinions on matters of conscience that the pastor is persuaded of. That puts me outside the fellowship, and on the verge of being excommunicated. I don't think that we're anywhere close to being united.

Here is what such people are actually up against:
WCF, ch. XXI
II. God alone is Lord of the conscience,[10] and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in anything, contrary to his Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship.[11] So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience:[12] and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.[13]
III. They who, upon pretense of Christian liberty, do practice any sin, or cherish any lust, do thereby destroy the end of Christian liberty, which is, that being delivered out of the hands of our enemies, we might serve the Lord without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.[14]
Its not just that the WCF says this, its just plain common sense. Those new teachings that are being foisted onto the churches in our day actually take away the conscience, and reason as well. They want us to take up their opinions of conscience, but don't realize that it leaves us without our own.

And then also they just go around the proper procedure, and are not taken up with the communion of the saints in mind, but only with the mind to propagate the new ideas among the populace of the church. These people need to learn to trust the process, and let the truth takes its own time by its own power. Without even considering the matters which these teach, we already know they are wrong, because they circumvent the truth and the church, and do not work within it to the good of all.

On the other end of it, the church is almost wasting her time by trying to think through these different teachings to see if they're OK. It almost doesn't matter, because the real problem is the unrest and schism that has already been planted. Everyone is going his own way, in spite of the Church's rich heritage and centuries of Biblical scholarship, and people are too easily convinced of their own views on things. And our denominations aren't really standing up to put a stop to this kind of action.

What is it going to take? In my view, its going to take a lot of humility. The A-4 people are going to have to trust us non- A-4 people; the FVists need to trust those of us who are not FVists. We are all going to have to trust the doctrines handed down to us, and deal responsibly with the governmental processes that we believe in. Until we do that, we have no hope of unity. The Presuppositionalist will still have it in for the Evidentialist; the Theonimist will still think his view of OT law is more than just superior; the one Millennial view will still look down the nose at the other views. This is just not what these differences are about or for. And unless we see that, we can't possible find unity, because unity will not ever be found in any of these things. We have to learn to put them in their proper place and leave them there.

Even the new budding believer, just taken under the wing of the Church, has his value to the most erudite of us. Or, better yet, put it this way. I don't agree with the Arminian down the street. But God has allowed him into His fellowship, it was not me. If I despise him because he isn't as Christian as I am, then I am really the one on the outside, not him. God put him there for a reason, and I had better pay attention to that. Sure, I believe the doctrines of grace are far superior to the Arminian ideas; and sure, I believe that some of what that Arminian believes is outrightly wrong. But I am not the judge of his heart; and if God has accepted him, then I may not throw stones at his faith. Do I want my Lord throwing stones at my faith? Well that's how my so-called superior understanding looks compared to His perfect will and Word.

But this is happening right in our own Reformed circles. And we ought to be ashamed. Instead we are proud.

OK, I feel better. Its the way I feel about things. But its also because I'm on the verge of being kicked out of the Reformed churches because of extenuating doctrinal circumstances resulting directly from these very things.
 
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
What about the issues related to the RPW, EP, no instruments in church, etc.?

I wasn't aware there was any disagreement in these areas.:lol::lol::lol:
 
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
What about the issues related to the RPW, EP, no instruments in church, etc.?

Honestly, I as long as the subscribe to teh RPW, then we can tolerate the varieties. (i.e. EP vs. non-EP). They both claim the RPW but one limits the commanded song to Psalms, the other include hymns. But there is no disagreement of the as to the required elements in general. This is something that can be tolerated with liberty of conscience, and left up to individual presbyteries and/or congregations to work out. This is not a gospel issue, but a secondary matter. Though many EP advocates would disagree.

I just find it troubling when people will say regarding other denominations, that their beliefs are "not an obstacle to fellowship" yet they refuse to join the denominations together. Obviously it is an obstacle to fellowship. I know most mean by "fellowship" that the others errors won't forbid them from talking to eachother or being friends. But is this the biblical idea of fellowship? Or is there something more involved?
 
One thing is for certian, we are a stiff necked people and submission is difficult for us. Humility is often a characteristic not abundant in the chruch as it is not abundant in the world.:(
 
Honestly, I'm more gung-ho about the absence of instruments in worship.

As long as Scripture is being sung, we are being edified by the Word of Christ.

So, if we can get all of the Presbyterian churches to ditch their organs ... :candle:
 
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Honestly, I'm more gung-ho about the absence of instruments in worship.

As long as Scripture is being sung, we are being edified by the Word of Christ.

So, if we can get all of the Presbyterian churches to ditch their organs ... :candle:

I agree with you on the instruments. Less is better in my opinion. And oh... I hate those organs....

But it's still not a matter to divide over.
 
Patrick, while my heart longs for unity I know that it will take a miracle for it to happen. Reformed folks have a penchant for division. The 'hyperscrutiny' mindset is all too common. We are rapidly approaching the divisiveness of the early 19th century.
 
I can't wait for when the churches of the world will be united under one worldwide synod. But alas, the time of turning Zions captivity is still afar!
 
Originally posted by puritansailor
Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Honestly, I'm more gung-ho about the absence of instruments in worship.

As long as Scripture is being sung, we are being edified by the Word of Christ.

So, if we can get all of the Presbyterian churches to ditch their organs ... :candle:

I agree with you on the instruments. Less is better in my opinion. And oh... I hate those organs....

But it's still not a matter to divide over.

What??? How can you hate organs??? "A Mighty Fortress" NEEDS an organ!!! :D

Let me articulate what it would take for all the Reformed churches to unite: Everyone would have to believe and practice their faith in accordance with my views. Then I'd be fine with coming together. :cool: :lol:

[Edited on 3-7-2005 by SolaScriptura]
 
I have been preaching since the New Year through Colossians 3:1-17. Part of those messages have included the following verses:

Colossians 3
12Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

Here is the key as I even addressed in last week's message the lack of unity and love between reformed churches and denominations.

Truth is important. Sound doctrine is necessary. But doctrine that does not lead to sound living (the fruit of the Spirit) is either bad doctrine, or we really don't believe it!

And while truth is important, we cannot have truth at the expense of love. True, real, lasting, unconditional, self abasing agape love. Paul said it in 1 Cor 13 - if we have all gifts, all faith, etc, but have not love it is nothing!

Here are my notes from 3 of the sermons I have preached. Look at the characteristics we are to have if we are Spirit filled and holding to sound doctrine!

Set Your Mind on Things Above - Col 3:1-17

Message 5 - Put Off - Col 3:5-11
A. Mortify, Put to Death "“ vs. 5-7

1. Your Members on the Earth "“ Rom 8:13; 7:24, 6:13
2. Fornication "“ immorality (any sexual sin)
3. Uncleaness "“ impurity (that which defiles)
4. Passion "“ physical lust (#1-3 lust of the flesh) lust = desire
5. Evil Desire "“ mental lust (lust of the eyes)
6. Covetousness "“ greed, "œto have more"
7. Idolatry "“ making a god of your own passions, your flesh (#5-6 pride of life)
8. Kill them or they will kill you! (vs 6)
9. Eph 2:1-5 "“ you once walked like this (past tense)

B. Put Off All These "“ vs. 8-11

1. Anger "“ deep bitterness (forgiveness)
2. Wrath "“ outbursts of rage and sinful anger
3. Malice "“ evil speech
4. Blasphemy "“ slander of God or other people
5. Filthy Language "“ Eph 4:29 (see also Ps 19:14; Matt 15:18; Luke 6:45; 1 Peter 2:1-3; Eph 5:1-4)
6. Do Not Lie
7. You Have Put Off the Old Man and Put On the New Man "“ Eph 4:17-24
8. Christ is All

Message 6 - Put On (Part 1) - Col 3:12-13

A. Therefore "“ because you are elect, holy, and loved by God
B. Put On (vs. 12-13)

1. Tender Mercies "“ compassion, caring, concern, a tender heart towards others "“ 1 John 3:16-18
2. Kindness "“ goodness to the point of overlooking others faults "“ Matt 11:25-30
3. Humility "“ Rom 12:3, 10 (notice context 12:1-2)
4. Meekness "“ willingness to suffer injury rather than to hurt others, setting self aside

a. Teachability "“ James 1:21
b. Consideration of Others "“ Eph 4:2

5. Longsuffering "“ patience, opposite of anger and revenge "“ Col 1:9-15

a. Patience "“ enduring trials
b. Longsuffering "“ enduring people

6. Bearing with One Another "“ put up with each other
7. Forgiving One Another "“ let it go! (forgiveness and repentance = restoration), complaint = cause for blame
8. Even as Christ Forgave You "“ Mark 11:25-26; Matt 18:21-35

Message 7 - Put On (Part 2) - Col 3:14-15

C. Above All These Things, Put on Love (vs. 14-17)

1. Love, the Bond of Perfection (the perfect bond of unity)

a. There is no unity without truth and love "“ Eph 4:1-6
b. Love Defined "“ 1 John 4:7-11, 17-19; 1 Cor 13:1-13

1) Love is of God (Gal 5:22)
2) Love is Proof of Knowing God (1 John 4:7-11, 17-19)
3) Love is Proof of Forgiveness (Assurance in Judgment)
4) Love has no Fear
5) Love is a Response to Love
6) Love is Necessary (1 Cor 13) (Love is Action)
7) Love Suffers Long "“ patient, long tempered
8) Love is Kind "“ useful, serving, gracious
9) Love Does not Envy "“ jealous, wanting what others have
10) Love Does not Parade Itself "“ does not brag
11) Love is not Puffed Up "“ is not arrogant
12) Love Does not Behave Rudely "“ impolite, rude, without manners
13) Love Does not Seek its Own "“ self replaces God, my way
14) Love is not Provoked "“ irritated, angered, upset, retaliation
15) Love Thinks No Evil "“ taking into account, a permanent record, remembering evils (Rom 4:8; 2 Cor 5:19; Matt 18:21-35; Eph 4:32)
16) Love Does not Rejoice in Iniquity, but Truth "“ justifying sin vs loving God´s Word
17) Love Bears All Things "“ all things acceptable to God (not envy, bragging, arrogance, rudeness, etc) covers, supports, protects
18) Love Believes All Things "“ trust, confidence, believing the best
19) Love Hopes All Things "“ love knows that failure is not final
20) Love Endures All Things "“ "œhold the fort" in the face of every hardship, every suffering, love will not stop
21) Love Never Fails

Love Bears what is Unbearable; it Believes what is otherwise Unbelievable; it Hopes in what is otherwise Hopeless; and it Endures when anything less than love would give up. After love bears it believes. After it believes it hopes. After it hopes it endures. There is no "œafter" for endurance, for enduring is the unending climax of love.

2. Let the Peace of God Rule "“ Rom 5:1-4; Phil 4:6-7
3. You Were Called to Peace (In One Body) "“ Eph 4:1-6
4. Be Thankful "“ 1 Thess 5:16-18

We see the disunity not because we need a new confession but because we have fallen prey to the sin of valuing truth above love. We must have BOTH if we are to maintain the perfect bond of unity described in this text. We must have truth but we must also have love for others in the Body. Intolerance and Irritiation both start with a capital I. Pride has I right in the middle of it. LOVE overlooks, bears, hopes. LOVE allows us to disagree on the NON ESSENTIALS. And a lack of LOVE binds us into being critical, hyper-sensitive, and divisive.

There is not a problem to me for us to have different local churches with specific beliefs and practices. BUt day to day, the reformed church is not united because we fail to love and forgive as we have been loved and forgiven. We quickly forget that these are, after all, the Doctrines of GRACE.

Phillip

[Edited on 3-7-05 by pastorway]
 
Pastor Way:

If we should ever move to central Texas ( where ever that is :bigsmile: ) we will be sure to check out your congregation. It sounds like a place we would like very much.
 
Originally posted by puritansailor
I agree with you on the instruments. Less is better in my opinion. And oh... I hate those organs....

But it's still not a matter to divide over.

Well, if your conviction is that using instruments is the same as saying Christ's sacrifice wasn't good enough or once-for-all (just as if we were to kill animals on the Sabbath or burn incense to the Lord), it becomes a little more pertinent. ;)
 
if anyone seriously equates using instruments with being apostate (deamening the sacrifice of Christ) then someone needs to be lovingly taught about the difference between essentials and non-essentials.

For example, when we discuss unity and fellowship between believers, no one is saying that Christians have to go to a church that violates their conscience by using instruments (or whatever other issues people may debate and even divide over) - but we all must be willing to fellowship with believers who do go to churches that disagree with us on NON-ESSENTIALS. The use of instruments, like many divisive issues, is really not an issue over which to withhold all fellowship in the Body.

Phillip

PS - let's not sidetrack this a thread about music/instruments, or any other of the divisive issues. okay? Let's keep on track looking for solutions to unBiblical attitudes and unnecessary division in the Body of Christ, especially in reformed circles.

[Edited on 3-7-05 by pastorway]
 
Because too many people are stuck in the 17th century on ALL issues and not willing to 'reform'......

good post, Pastor Way. :thumbsup:
 
I don't think we need a new Reformed Creed. However, {in best Scottish accent} what are the conditions necessary for "covenanting"? I know Matt did a paper on the Solemn League and Covenant. While my reading is limited inthis regard, how would this idea work out?
 
Interestingly enough Confessions and creeds have historically become tools of division beyond the third of fourth generation. What was originally seen as a tool of unity becomes a tool of division. How is this? The descendants do not view the confession in the same light. The confession becomes the litmus paper of fellowship rather than Scripture. (I know some will bristle at that, but history proves me correct on this.) What is a matter of liberty (eg. instruments in public worship) becomes an essential given time and familiarity. (Take the Restoration Movment churches for example.)

We must remember confessions, creeds, and statements are not Scripture. They are an interpretation of Scripture. As such, they will never be infallible.
 
Originally posted by LawrenceU
Interestingly enough Confessions and creeds have historically become tools of division beyond the third of fourth generation. What was originally seen as a tool of unity becomes a tool of division. How is this? The descendants do not view the confession in the same light. The confession becomes the litmus paper of fellowship rather than Scripture. (I know some will bristle at that, but history proves me correct on this.) What is a matter of liberty (eg. instruments in public worship) becomes an essential given time and familiarity. (Take the Restoration Movment churches for example.)

We must remember confessions, creeds, and statements are not Scripture. They are an interpretation of Scripture. As such, they will never be infallible.

Lawrence,
Welcome to the fold Mr. Moderator!
 
One thing is for certian, we are a stiff necked people and submission is difficult for us. Humility is often a characteristic not abundant in the chruch as it is not abundant in the world.:(

I cant believe no one has hit on the obvious answer. Lon came the closest in naming the problem that scripture seems to have only one answer for.

What would it take to get the Reformed churches to unite?
Persecution & wrath.

If we can split over the use of organs in the church then we just have way too much time that isn't being redeemed. In the midst of our arguing over trivialities we should stop and praise God for his enormous mercy to us for being so stiff necked.

Exodus 32:9,10 And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you."

Exodus 33:3,4 Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; but I will not go up among you, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people."
When the people heard this disastrous word, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments. For the LORD had said to Moses, "Say to the people of Israel, 'You are a stiff-necked people; if for a single moment I should go up among you, I would consume you. So now take off your ornaments, that I may know what to do with you.

2 Chron 30:8
Do not now be stiff-necked as your fathers were, but yield yourselves to the LORD and come to his sanctuary, which he has consecrated forever, and serve the LORD your God, that his fierce anger may turn away from you.

Sorry if this seems harsh. I have the flu and it's made me a bit owly I guess. :barfy:

[Edited on 3-7-2005 by maxdetail]
 
All,

Put us in a paper bag and shake us up, and there will always be something to divide us.

And you probably know what I'm going to say next. I just need to tell you before hand, that I am not trying to stir up trouble or ill feelings.

Strict subscription to the creeds and confessions we already have is the cure for disunity. Why? Here are my reasons.

1.) Subscription admits our own weaknesses and faults and enables us to be humble enough to submit to one another.

2.) Subscription takes away individualism. It provides a common goal and a common enemy.

3.) Subscription takes away intellectual pride. Defenders of the standards are not lording their intelligence over people, they're protecting the intelligence passed on to them.

4.) Subscription is historically proven. It unites, not divides. The only reason that divisions exist because of it, is because the men could not humble themselves and submit to their brothers and fathers.

5.) In every Reformation of the Church, to include OT times, subscription to the standards (not the WCF if you thought I meant that) paved the way.

6.) It is also historically proven that where subscription is loosened and relaxed, the church is susceptable to error and division.

7.) Subscription usually means that God is being worshiped in the same way by all those who subscribe. Unity of worship is paramount to Reformation.

8.) Subscription, and the unity it provides, proves the will of God. True spiritual unity fulfills our Lord's high priestly prayer.

9.) Subscription is biblical.

10.) Subscription gives purpose to the next generation. Our children will look for their place in redemptive history. If we teach them subscription, they will take their place as defenders of the faith. They need to be entrusted and know their entrusted with a solemn task.

11.) Subscription, as a result of point 10, enables us to live not only for our progenitors, but also for our posterity. Living to ourselves causes pride and division.

12.) Subscription makes us men, Knights, if you will. Defenders of the faith.

13.) Subscription is the main goal of discipleship. Learn what we teach, teach what you have learned.

14.) Subscription in the truest sense of the word, means that the pulpits will teach the same thing.

15.) Subscription, by the help of the Holy Spirit, allows us to have a Reformed worldview, and gives us a reason to renounce the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Now that I've probably offended some, let me say this:

Subscription to the creeds and confessions is no more or less than being a biblical Christian. True subscription, means that the doctrines underlying are practiced, not merely known. While subscription cannot keep out the head-knowledge disciple, it does prove those who actually live the doctrines over and against those who are mere intellectuals.

And contrary to what's been said previously, love does not conquer doctrinal divisions. True love cannot be had or practiced without the unity of the Spirit of Truth. What fellowship can we have with error? None. There are battles to fight and hills to die on. We don't kill each other over the minutia like the Romans have and still do.

The creeds, the three forms of unity, the Westminster Confession and catechisms, and the various other documents that are like them are all in agreement. If we would be unified, we should unify around these. A great company of witnesses have been unified by them. We should carry on their legacy.

In Christ,

KC
 
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