What Liquid Do You Use in the Lord's Supper?

[PointyHaired Calvinist]

Our church uses both. We take wine out of conviction. It caused a stir a few years ago when they started offering wine (before we came), but I'm convinced it is the proper element and am glad to have this option.

 

[fishingpipe]

We use both wine and grape juice. I believe the scriptures and the Westminster Confession both teach it should be wine only, and pray that my church repents of the use of grape juice in communion.

I have never observed a teaching or ruling elder that approves of the use of pasteurized (dead) grape juice take exception to the WCoF teaching of the use of wine alone. I believe they should, especially in light of the RPW.

 

[fishingpipe]

Going off of what SW shows in that quote, what is the biblical theology show to us in the Lord's Supper through the use of:

3) What does wine show forth that grape juice doesn't or can't?

Wine is red, signifying/representing the blood of Christ much better than a purple Welch's grape juice.
Wine ferments. It is alive, like our risen Savior. Grape juice is pasteurized. It will never ferment. It is dead, unlike our Christ.
Wine gives us joy. Sugary grape juice makes us hyper.

WCOF Chapter 27: II. There is, in every sacrament, a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.

How poor a representation of the blood of Christ is grape juice. Our forefathers did well to recognize the importance of using what Christ used.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Just a warning for those dogmatic about using fermented wine. Jeremiah 35.

The Rechabites could either abstain from the Lord's Table, or they could obey God rather than man, even if that man was their father.

Seth, I think you know we could argue this both ways. God commends the honoring of a person's heritage and parents as long as it doesn't impede upon obeying God. The attitude of heart of the Rechabite's left an everlasting promise to them. God promised them what because they didn't and wouldn't drink anything like fermented wine? I am just saying that some would cut off others and say they are wrong for obeying the vows of a Nazarite or their parents. That is just plain wrong. The substance of fermentation doesn't have a means of grace unless you are brokenhearted maybe and need a rest or the need to make special merriment. The Kingdome of God is not food or drink.

 

[Dearly Bought]

Our congregation uses both wine and grape juice. We drink the wine, convinced that it is the biblical element. Moreover, the Belgic Confession of Faith is pretty explicit, stating that "Christ has instituted an earthly and visible bread as a sacrament of His body, and wine as a sacrament of His blood."

 

[KMK]

No wine vs grape juice thread would be complete without a link to this must-read sermon: Danger of Being Over Wise | Naphtali Press

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Going off of what SW shows in that quote, what is the biblical theology show to us in the Lord's Supper through the use of:

3) What does wine show forth that grape juice doesn't or can't?

Wine is red, signifying/representing the blood of Christ much better than a purple Welch's grape juice.
Wine ferments. It is alive, like our risen Savior. Grape juice is pasteurized. It will never ferment. It is dead, unlike our Christ.
Wine gives us joy. Sugary grape juice makes us hyper.

WCOF Chapter 27: II. There is, in every sacrament, a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.

How poor a representation of the blood of Christ is grape juice. Our forefathers did well to recognize the importance of using what Christ used.

Oh come on. I can make as many representations about leaven. My family has been wine makers for years. You are assuming the wine they drank was purely red in the first place. What if they used white grapes. LOL. Freshly squeezed grapes is still Oinos.

 

[Marrow Man]

I would prefer the use of wine, but an appeal to the WCF against grape juice is anachronistic -- not in the sense that it does not mention wine specifically (of course it does), but in the sense that it is not contra modern grape juice (specifically). Grace juice has to be pasteurized, and that process wasn't perfected until two centuries after the Westminster Assembly met.

 

[CharlieJ]

My last church used both wine and grape juice, with a marked preference for the wine. There were, however, a lot of ex-fundamentalists and a lot of pregnant women in the church.

I don't know if one can really say, biblically or from the WCF, that grape juice is totally off-limits, but I am concerned that many congregations adopted it because of unbiblical prohibitions against alcohol. It takes a lot of nerve to say that we've improved on the Lord's Supper.

 

[Andres]

Grace juice has to be pasteurized

You think just because you call it "Grace juice" now that it's equal to wine?

---------- Post added at 10:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:48 PM ----------

There were, however, a lot of ex-fundamentalists and a lot of pregnant women in the church.

My wife continued to partake of the wine the whole time she was pregnant. I don't know what kind of cups you are using but ours hold like an ounce. I don't think having one ounce of wine once a week will harm a baby.

 

[AThornquist]

Moderate use of alcohol is safe during pregnancy according to all the OB/GYNs I know. And I know quite a few. The only danger to the child is in excess.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Moderate use of alcohol is safe during pregnancy according to all the OB/GYNs I know. And I know quite a few. The only danger to the child is in excess.

I guess it depends upon the child and its allergic problems on this side.

 

[CharlieJ]

I guess it depends upon the child and its allergic problems on this side.

Good point. My mother is allergic to alcohol. A small amount is enough to make her quite ill. I definitely think that the Reformed notion of a sacrament is sufficiently flexible to make allowances for unusual situations.

 

[KMK]

Some people are allergic to grapes, some to alcohol, some to gluten, some to yeast. I just don't see how we can accommodate everyone's issues. It is probably best to stick with the Lord's institution and our confessional standards.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Do we need to accommodate those who have some physical impairment; like not being able to chew or swallow easily (now there's a path to intinction)? As Pastor Klein says, where do we draw the line on such an accommodation as to the Lord's institution?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

At the liberal seminary I attended they had 6 different options for the Lord's Supper.

1) Gluten-free bread

2) Yeast-free bread

3) Regular bread

4) Wine

5) Grape Juice

6) Red-colored water

 

[JP Wallace]

At the liberal seminary I attended they had 6 different options for the Lord's Supper.

1) Gluten-free bread

2) Yeast-free bread

3) Regular bread

4) Wine

5) Grape Juice

6) Red-colored water

Disgraceful..I'd take them to court for discrimination - I'm diabetic where's the Low GI wholemeal option, and I do hope that Grape Juice is 'no added sugar'.

 

[moral necessity]

Ours uses both.

 

[Andres]

Some people are allergic to grapes, some to alcohol, some to gluten, some to yeast. I just don't see how we can accommodate everyone's issues. It is probably best to stick with the Lord's institution and our confessional standards.

---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

Red-colored water

What's this about??

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Diabetic...not kidding.

 

[JP Wallace]

BTW I was being sarcastic...(and I am Diabetic)...I just don't think we can or should legislate for all the modern foibles and afflictions in the modern world - in obviously life-threatening exceptional cases maybe.

 

[Scottish Lass]

For the diabetics, there is grape juice with virtually all sugar swapped out for artificial sweetener---down to five calories total. It was recommended for Grace, but I'm leery of the artificial sweeteners for her, so she just doesn't drink juice.

 

[JP Wallace]

In fact a dry red wine is by far the best option here for Diabetics, indeed red wine is being proposed as a useful component by some studies in the control of Type 2. Could red wine help diabetes blood glucose control

 

[JonathanHunt]

I chose 'neither'. We use some gross-tasting non-alcoholic wine. It is neither properly wine nor grape juice. Still, I sort of prefer it as it somehow feels closer to wine than grape juice. Anyway, this is not a battle I want to face in the second month of my pastorate so I'd better hold my peace!

 

[JP Wallace]

I chose 'neither'. We use some gross-tasting non-alcoholic wine. It is neither properly wine nor grape juice. Still, I sort of prefer it as it somehow feels closer to wine than grape juice. Anyway, this is not a battle I want to face in the second month of my pastorate so I'd better hold my peace!

Sounds like we have the same stuff....and I prefer it for the same reasons.

 

[KMK]

Anyway, this is not a battle I want to face in the second month of my pastorate so I'd better hold my peace!

Wiser words may never have been spoken.

 

[Scottish Lass]

I chose 'neither'. We use some gross-tasting non-alcoholic wine. It is neither properly wine nor grape juice. Still, I sort of prefer it as it somehow feels closer to wine than grape juice. Anyway, this is not a battle I want to face in the second month of my pastorate so I'd better hold my peace!

Is it Fre? If not, that might be worth a try if you can find it in your area.

 

[Loopie]

My chaplain once told me the reasons why he prefers wine over grape juice (he was a former pastor for 20 years, and now is an air force chaplain). He said that wine seems to have a bitter-sweet quality to it that grape juice does not have. When he partakes of wine, the bitterness reminds him of the bitterness of sin, and how God poured out his wrath upon the Son for our sins, while the sweetness reminds him of the sweetness of the Lord's victory, and how the Lord gave us life. Just thought I would share that.

 

[J. Dean]

Grape juice. I think the principle is more about the fellowship and communion than it is the particulars of the elements, although I also believe in sticking with the basics of bread and wine and not, as one youth pastor tried, pizza and pop.

Seems like you could get in trouble with giving wine to anybody under 21, couldn't you?

BTW, not to get too far off-topic, but there's something about eating from a common loaf of bread that you don't get when you get individual prepackaged wafers-and the wafers just taste bad anyway.

 

[KMK]

Seems like you could get in trouble with giving wine to anybody under 21, couldn't you?

There is no law against using wine with communion.