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Thanks for your thoughtful replies, especially that of Semper Fidelis. Since FV is wrong about the temporary salvation concept (and I agree they are wrong), then are not the forms for infant baptism sorely defective? I'm familiar with the CR form but presumably other forms are similar. There are all these glowing promises of God pronounced over the wee one but never is the big condition mentioned "IF THEY HAPPEN TO BE ELECT". If one should add the big condition, then how is a convenant infant different from any other infant? One can say of all infants whatsoever that God makes glowing promises if they happen to be elect, even those infants born into Buddhist families.
Also how do Reformed people who reject the FV understand the condition of people who are born into Christian families but are finally reprobate, explicitly, by choice, no doubt about it. The author Peter DeVries comes to mind. I'd assume they were never saved in any sense whatsoever and, in retrospect, the promises and blessings pronounced in their infancies were, at best, half-truths, if not outright lies.
Lest any misunderstand, I'm NOT a secret FV sympathizer, nor am I trying to be sarcastic or smart-alecky. I've come to faith in God relatively recently, having been a covenant baby, a reprobate most of my life, and given a new heart three years ago. I really want to understand.
As an Founders SBCer I haven't looked that closely at the FV issue. However, from what I have read in this present thread it sounds to be that Jonathan Edwards dealt with something similar in his church by in the day.
Thanks for your thoughtful replies, especially that of Semper Fidelis. Since FV is wrong about the temporary salvation concept (and I agree they are wrong), then are not the forms for infant baptism sorely defective? I'm familiar with the CR form but presumably other forms are similar. There are all these glowing promises of God pronounced over the wee one but never is the big condition mentioned "IF THEY HAPPEN TO BE ELECT". If one should add the big condition, then how is a convenant infant different from any other infant? One can say of all infants whatsoever that God makes glowing promises if they happen to be elect, even those infants born into Buddhist families.
Also how do Reformed people who reject the FV understand the condition of people who are born into Christian families but are finally reprobate, explicitly, by choice, no doubt about it. The author Peter DeVries comes to mind. I'd assume they were never saved in any sense whatsoever and, in retrospect, the promises and blessings pronounced in their infancies were, at best, half-truths, if not outright lies.
Lest any misunderstand, I'm NOT a secret FV sympathizer, nor am I trying to be sarcastic or smart-alecky. I've come to faith in God relatively recently, having been a covenant baby, a reprobate most of my life, and given a new heart three years ago. I really want to understand.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“ Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”[k]
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“ I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”[l]
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:
“ I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”[m]
21 But to Israel he says:
“ All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them,[a] not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:
“ So I swore in My wrath,
‘ They shall not enter My rest,’”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;[c] 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”[d]
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”[e]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Thanks again to Semper Fidelis. I don't have the knack of quoting previous posts, but if I understand you right, you are saying that the advantage of covenant infants in the church is analogous to the advantage of infants born into Jewish homes in the B.C. era. It is simply that they have the advantage of exposure to the corpus of teaching regarding God. From a strictly human point of view, conversion should be easier, not quite so radical as it is for a Buddhist. Yet there is also a disadvantage in this, in that the condemnation of an ultimately-reprobate covenant infant is greatly increased. I still don't understand why the CR form for the baptism of infants sounds like a FV document, promising the forgiveness of sins etc. without the mention of either "if elect" or "if later converted".
As an Founders SBCer I haven't looked that closely at the FV issue. However, from what I have read in this present thread it sounds to be that Jonathan Edwards dealt with something similar in his church by in the day.
One of my main problems with the FV is that once you are a covenant member through baptism the call is to covenant faithfulness (which in practice is often works) rather than to conversion. Indeed conversion is almost frowned upon as an abrogation of the primacy of the external covenant. Therefore the FV would see Edwards "Sinners in the hand of an angry God" as an unwarranted demand for inner conversion which is entirely inappropriate.
The FV do not therefore in my mind preach the full Gospel.
To be fair the FV would say that the modern call to conversion is an experiential approach that verges on synergistic Arminianism and they do have a point, but the answer is to reform our unbiblical practices, not to cease to preach the full Gospel.
Or, to get at it another way than Daniel does, we can say that baptism initiates us into the visible church, and it is faith that initiates us into the invisible church. These two things may be connected (in the case of some of the elect) or not (in the case of the reprobate). When one is initiated into the visible church, one receives the benefit of being treated as a believer until that person is shown otherwise. This increases the condemnation of those who apostatize and show themselves never to have been a part of the invisible church at all. The Federal Vision collapses the visible/invisible church distinction.
What is the basic problem with FV?
FV has no place to ground the assurance of salvation that is available to the regenerate because the system allows for the reprobate to receive the same measure of regeneration and faith as the elect. Assurance becomes predicated upon the secret decree of perseverance, which cannot be known being a secret! All of which stands in stark contrast to the biblical teaching, that the Holy Spirit bears witness with the believer’s spirit according to the unambiguous word of promise that all who God calls, He justifies and will glorify.
Ron
O.k. the promise of God is objective, but how can anyone tell if he or she has the right kind of faith, is trusting in Christ alone? How can you say "faith alone?" It's certainly "grace alone" but the only place where "faith alone" is used in scripture is in James where it says "taint so!". Paul called the Gentiles to the obedience of faith.
It seems to me that the assurance of which you speak, the inner voice of the Holy Spirit is not at all unambiguous. It is entirely subjective. How can anyone know the difference between the Holy Spirit bearing witness that one belongs to God and self-deception? ...
I don't agree with the FV for other reasons but it seems that in their system at least one can look at his or her current faithfulness to the covenant to determine if one is currently in relationship to God, even while being uncertain if the gift of perseverance will enable one to finish the course.
It seems to me that the assurance of which you speak, the inner voice of the Holy Spirit is not at all unambiguous. It is entirely subjective. How can anyone know the difference between the Holy Spirit bearing witness that one belongs to God and self-deception? ...
I don't agree with the FV for other reasons but it seems that in their system at least one can look at his or her current faithfulness to the covenant to determine if one is currently in relationship to God, even while being uncertain if the gift of perseverance will enable one to finish the course.
These are great questions, and I see you have already gotten some good answers.
I would add two more points:
1. On your first question relating to how we can know, or have assurance, the WCOF says assurance is not of the essence of faith, that is, being in faith does not guarantee you will have assurance, but by diligent appropriation of the means of grace, one can get it. Short paraphrase.
2. On the second question about the FV offering a more tangible means of assurance, I don't read them as offering assurance on the basis you suggest. Rather, I read them as saying assurance is based on your baptism and membership in the covenant family.
I may be wrong, and if so, I'm sure someone will correct me.