Piper: denial of church membership = excommunication. Corollary: believing somebody to be regenerate and prepared to submit to the authority of the local church as "mother" as to God as Father => permitting church membership.
Grudem: denial of church membership NOT= excommunication. Corollary: but in practice nobody ever is excommunicated, they only have their membership revoked, whether they are an unrepentant axe-murderer or somebody who is simply undecided about some of the finer points of the church's statement of faith.
Who is correct? I believe Piper makes more sense, but most churches seem in my experience to follow Grudem. Seems like a pretty basic - and crucial[/I] question to me, since in Piper's view the location power of the keys is straightforward - in the eldership of the church of which one is a member, but I just dont see it in the other case; the absurdity is exacerbated when an unrepentant sinner is denied membership / excommunicated / but still allowed to take communion because "that is between their conscience and God."
Also, a second question. My reading of Scripture is that if somebody is excommunicated all members know about it. My reading of churches is that only the elders ever know so its anybody's guess who one should be fellowshipping with as brothers and who they should be loving as unbelievers (especially if any differences between membership suspension and excommunication are too fluffy for a simpleton like me to understand) Am I right or - as usual, just not getting it?
Trying to fend off the raging beast of abandoned cynicism whilst somebody can provide some sensible answers....but please dont provide any answers that involve quoting confessions in such a way as to beg the question, implying that99.9% of evangelical churches in fact apostate....because we all know they aren't, however confused they are.....and I certainly am.
Grudem: denial of church membership NOT= excommunication. Corollary: but in practice nobody ever is excommunicated, they only have their membership revoked, whether they are an unrepentant axe-murderer or somebody who is simply undecided about some of the finer points of the church's statement of faith.
Who is correct? I believe Piper makes more sense, but most churches seem in my experience to follow Grudem. Seems like a pretty basic - and crucial[/I] question to me, since in Piper's view the location power of the keys is straightforward - in the eldership of the church of which one is a member, but I just dont see it in the other case; the absurdity is exacerbated when an unrepentant sinner is denied membership / excommunicated / but still allowed to take communion because "that is between their conscience and God."
Also, a second question. My reading of Scripture is that if somebody is excommunicated all members know about it. My reading of churches is that only the elders ever know so its anybody's guess who one should be fellowshipping with as brothers and who they should be loving as unbelievers (especially if any differences between membership suspension and excommunication are too fluffy for a simpleton like me to understand) Am I right or - as usual, just not getting it?
Trying to fend off the raging beast of abandoned cynicism whilst somebody can provide some sensible answers....but please dont provide any answers that involve quoting confessions in such a way as to beg the question, implying that99.9% of evangelical churches in fact apostate....because we all know they aren't, however confused they are.....and I certainly am.