This makes no sense. Does that mean that unless everyone is speaking in prayer, they are not worshipping?
What instruments to use in worship...
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JP Wallace
Puritan Board Sophomore
It makes perfect sense. Each element is to be engaged in according to the warrants of Scripture in connection with that element. Thus preaching is corporate act where one preaches and the rest listen, ditto with the apostolic gift of tongues speaking, one was to speak, other listen, one was to interpret 'each in turn' that everything may be done 'decently and in order', because God is not the author of confusion but of peace (all NKJV 1 Cor 14). This principle in turn can be and ought to be applied to the element of prayer.
However just as certainly, singing is specifically warranted as a corporate activity where everyone is to be mutually edifying each other - if you're not singing you aren't edifying.
NKJ Ephesians 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
NKJ Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Each element must be participated in, in the way it was intended.
However just as certainly, singing is specifically warranted as a corporate activity where everyone is to be mutually edifying each other - if you're not singing you aren't edifying.
NKJ Ephesians 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
NKJ Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Each element must be participated in, in the way it was intended.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
This makes no sense. Does that mean that unless everyone is speaking in prayer, they are not worshipping?
Touche.
If singing is of the essence of the worship, rather than the playing of instruments, as it seems to be, since no-one here is arguing for long instrumental solos in formal worship, then the instrumentalists have to concentrate on playing rather than singing, which isn't so great.
(a) The Lord must desire such; He must like His people to be singing to Him and about Him.
(b) The Holy Spirit must be able to use God's Word in the sung form in a special way.
If singing is required, does it necessary follow that EVERY song is required to be sung?
In addition, as an ex-professional trombone player, I can tell you it doesn't take that much concentration to play a hymn along with the congregation. In fact, depending on the age of the hymn, it might even be easier.
In addition, as an ex-professional trombone player, I can tell you it doesn't take that much concentration to play a hymn along with the congregation. In fact, depending on the age of the hymn, it might even be easier.
And, for that matter, as an ex-church organist (emphasis on the ex), I can attest to the possibility of singing while accompanying.
Personally, I love a capella singing and wish it were common. But, I can't say every congregation is quite ready for it. Some of us struggle with carrying a tune even with accompaniment.
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
If this is true, Vic, I would think that a large group of people singing a capella would drive you crazy!
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Not sure why the quote thing did not turn out...
Anyhow, I do agree that IF accompaniment is merely for that purpose, then I would prefer an acoustic guitar or some other simple instrument. In seminary I would ask my Dutch Reformed friends why a guitar is not acceptable in public worship if an organ is. I would even argue from the financial aspect (good guitar= $1500. good organ= $Tens of Thousands!). This did not go over very well. Tradition is a hard thing to break.
Anyhow, my convictions stand.. but I do find the whole thing a strange animal. The so-called worship wars of the 90s that many of our Reformed congregations struggled through were about preference and nothing more. Hymns and organs are not more or less godly than praise songs (with good content) and praise bands. There is no difference in the Scriptures between the two. None.
---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------
Not sure why the quote thing did not turn out...
Anyhow, I do agree that IF accompaniment is merely for that purpose, then I would prefer an acoustic guitar or some other simple instrument. In seminary I would ask my Dutch Reformed friends why a guitar is not acceptable in public worship if an organ is. I would even argue from the financial aspect (good guitar= $1500. good organ= $Tens of Thousands!). This did not go over very well. Tradition is a hard thing to break.
Anyhow, my convictions stand.. but I do find the whole thing a strange animal. The so-called worship wars of the 90s that many of our Reformed congregations struggled through were about preference and nothing more. Hymns and organs are not more or less godly than praise songs (with good content) and praise bands. There is no difference in the Scriptures between the two. None.
---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------
Also not sure about the stutter.
Also not sure about the stutter.
Anyhow, I do agree that IF accompaniment is merely for that purpose, then I would prefer an acoustic guitar or some other simple instrument. In seminary I would ask my Dutch Reformed friends why a guitar is not acceptable in public worship if an organ is. I would even argue from the financial aspect (good guitar= $1500. good organ= $Tens of Thousands!). This did not go over very well. Tradition is a hard thing to break.
Anyhow, my convictions stand.. but I do find the whole thing a strange animal. The so-called worship wars of the 90s that many of our Reformed congregations struggled through were about preference and nothing more. Hymns and organs are not more or less godly than praise songs (with good content) and praise bands. There is no difference in the Scriptures between the two. None.
---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:16 PM ----------
Not sure why the quote thing did not turn out...
Anyhow, I do agree that IF accompaniment is merely for that purpose, then I would prefer an acoustic guitar or some other simple instrument. In seminary I would ask my Dutch Reformed friends why a guitar is not acceptable in public worship if an organ is. I would even argue from the financial aspect (good guitar= $1500. good organ= $Tens of Thousands!). This did not go over very well. Tradition is a hard thing to break.
Anyhow, my convictions stand.. but I do find the whole thing a strange animal. The so-called worship wars of the 90s that many of our Reformed congregations struggled through were about preference and nothing more. Hymns and organs are not more or less godly than praise songs (with good content) and praise bands. There is no difference in the Scriptures between the two. None.
---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------
Also not sure about the stutter.
Also not sure about the stutter.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
So the view of those in favour of instruments in worship is that they are there to assist the singing, which is the worship, and therefore are circumstantial, rather than that they are there as part of the worship itself?
This would be a material difference from the OT, which indicates that the dead instruments themselves were part of the worship.
But instruments are completely unecessary to help the singing, and actually get in the way of it.
This would be a material difference from the OT, which indicates that the dead instruments themselves were part of the worship.
But instruments are completely unecessary to help the singing, and actually get in the way of it.
On that note (no pun intended
), my congregation has only been singing a capella since spring. As far as I know, no one here sings by sight reading; we pick up the tune by ear the way most people learn a song. There's been a learning curve, but we've improved and it's worth it. If a congregation can't sing, instruments don't so much solve it as cloak it.
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Pedagogically speaking, this simply isn't true. Instruments are invaluable when it comes to ear training and are used in every music curriculum I have seen. Even university choruses use some kind of instrument to establish a pitch before singing a capella.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Indeed. Is God unhappy if people genuinely can't sing, even after they've tried. I doubt not.
It's more us that are distressed and then demand cloaking by instruments.
Congregational singing is different from professional perfectionism, although people should try their best to make a nice sound.
There is so much good singing and music out there, that we start to think that God requires the same.
arielann81
Puritan Board Freshman
Instruments in "worship?" Well I agree with those that say this is the wrong question. What is worship but a response to God? Is worship not in all things we do? "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship." Rom. 12: 1-3 ESV Our Bodies are with us no matter what we are doing and therefore how we live is how we worship God. If we are honoring God in what we do and using Gifts he has given us to glorify him and edify the body I don't see this as wrong. Why would God gift us with those abilities if we were not capable of glorifying him with them? Is not all creativity part of the design God ordained? Just look at creation? What does it sound like when lightning crashes or rain falls on different types of materials?
"Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, "Hallelujah!For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns." Rev.19: 5-7
Have you ever stood next to a large waterfall? The roar of the water covers one of the widest ranges of frequency known on the sound spectrum. Its the same with great winds, waves, and fires. If God uses the range of sounds on the spectrum and the bible gives evidence that this is used for Worship that is good enough for me.
Whatever sounds that can be made can be used to glorify God if they fall within the spectrum declared worship. It is more important that our heart posture is in the right place. Seeking an understanding of what it means to worship in Spirit and in Truth would be a better question.
"Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, "Hallelujah!For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns." Rev.19: 5-7
Have you ever stood next to a large waterfall? The roar of the water covers one of the widest ranges of frequency known on the sound spectrum. Its the same with great winds, waves, and fires. If God uses the range of sounds on the spectrum and the bible gives evidence that this is used for Worship that is good enough for me.
Whatever sounds that can be made can be used to glorify God if they fall within the spectrum declared worship. It is more important that our heart posture is in the right place. Seeking an understanding of what it means to worship in Spirit and in Truth would be a better question.
If it is true that instruments at least some of the time help people 'make a nice sound', then doesn't this argue in favor of instruments?
It seems to me that you have to either argue against the use of instruments on moral grounds, or allow any and all instruments on practical grounds. It is universally accepted that, practically, instruments do help people sing proper pitch and rhythm. If it were true that instruments impede good pitch and rhythm then a capella singing would be the norm in this world.
There are two related points about your statements here, Ariel.
One is that the discussion relates to worship narrowly defined. In a broad sense we worship God (ideally) in everything we do; but there is still a difference between worshipping God through another activity, and worshipping God expressly and directly, where that is the principal activity. The Reformed past that includes a prohibition of organs, and even people designing church buildings specifically so it would be impossible ever to bring an organ inside, was aware of all these matters, and it wasn't through ignorance that they came to their conclusions. And when it comes to that kind of formal, express, direct worship only God can tell us what is pleasing to Him, so that if we don't have authorization from His word for some matter, we are better off not bringing it.
On a similar note, there are many gifts and talents people have through which we believe that they can serve God, and yet we don't bring them into the worship service. For instance, a conscientious carpenter may make serviceable and lovely furniture and glorify God by doing so; but even if you hired him to build a pulpit or make pews, you probably wouldn't have him do that as part of the morning service at church. The fact that we have a talent to use to glorify God doesn't mean that the church services are the proper venue for that (e.g., my mad backrubbing skills).
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RobertPGH1981
Puritan Board Sophomore
To some this is a cultural argument because I have yet to see scripture that condemns the use of instruments. Christians in Africa play instruments foreign to us and dance during praise and worship. While it would seem unorthodox to do this in the United States it is the norm in Africa. How would this be wrong? I am not understanding why people are saying it was acceptable in the OT, while unacceptable in the NT.
Any discussion about dance in worship needs to be in a new thread.
This is a very short explanation of the reason we are not to use musical instruments. Musical Instruments in Psalm 150
Girardeau is still the most accessible short book length work on the subject (though from a Southern Presbyterian a capella hymnody perspective). See my prior post.
Girardeau is still the most accessible short book length work on the subject (though from a Southern Presbyterian a capella hymnody perspective). See my prior post.
When it comes to stated worship, Scripture doesn't have to condemn something for it to be ruled out. Unless Scripture authorizes it, it's automatically ruled out.
The argument is that in the OT, in stated worship, instruments were tied to the whole symbolic sacrificial system of the Temple. So when the system of worship that involved blood and ashes and special clothes disappeared, so did the instruments.
J. Dean
Puritan Board Junior
This is RPW, right?
J. Dean
Puritan Board Junior
Ok. Thank you. Now, let me play aisle-dancer's advocate for sake of argument: How do you respond to the person who says "Isn't that legalism, to forbid what the Bible does not forbid?"
What's your response?
When it comes to God's worship, the lack of biblical warrant for something is the Word of God's forbidding of it.
See here for some definitions of the RPW.
http://www.puritanboard.com/blogs/naphtalipress/what-regulative-principle-worship-25/
http://www.puritanboard.com/blogs/naphtalipress/what-regulative-principle-worship-25/
seajayrice
Puritan Board Sophomore
Here is a quick dissection of the RPW contrasted with the normative principle. Regulative principle - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity
The search function is a marvelous aid on the PB. Great topic for study.
Backwoods Presbyterian
Puritanboard Amanuensis
“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it." -- Deut 12:32
No one is forbidding something the Bible hasn't forbidden. If the RPW is true, then when it comes to worship we can only bring what God has required; anything not required, is disallowed. Someone raising that question probably doesn't understand the RPW. For my conscience, or yours, to be free to worship God as commanded in his word, it must be free from elements imposed by the church without a Scriptural requirement.
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