What I Have Come To Believe About Tongues and The Gifts Of The Spirit

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William Price

William Price

Puritan Board Freshman
I certainly am not as knowledged or well versed as some of you are on this forum, and this is why I have loved coming here so much lately. As many of you know, I came out of a very heretical background, Oneness Pentecostalism. This cult denied the deity of the Son, the Trinity, and salvation by grace through faith. Along with this, they also held an extra biblical focus on the gifts of the Spirit instead of the Word of God.

As a minister of this cult for 17 years, I was among those who pushed a focus on gifts and self-righteousness. In this setting, I spoke with tongues almost constantly, and even at times gave interpretation of tongues. But, since my salvation on 2/9/2009, I have immersed myself in Reformed theology and the truths presented therein.

I said all that to bring this forth. I have read all the views I could in the past two days on this forum. I can say that, though I am not a cessationist, I surely am not a Pentecostal nor Charismatic either.

If tongues occur today, they must be done in the light of scripture, to the presenting of the Gospel to the lost. In other words, just as at Pentecost, when tongues came forth, it came as unknown to the speaker, but those around Jerusalem heard the praises to God in their own tongue. For me to state this is hard, because I have had to realize that the 'experiences' of my past were faulty, because in them was false doctrine (not of God and brought no glory to Him), and thus could not have been of God.

There are many sincere and good-hearted believers in pentecostal churches today. But, when focus is on 'gifts' instead of on God, then the gifts become idols, pagan worship focus. Thus, I have had to openly reject the fact that Pentecost in and of itself is acceptable unto God as we have it today.

Either I am going to sincerely be Reformed or not. Do I believe miracles and the supernatural occur? Absolutely, because God has done miracles in my own life three times. At birth, I was to be born a vegetable, unable to feed, clothe, or take care of myself in any way. Instead, God granted my aprents the grace to have a healthy baby boy who had no health problems except an appitite that was too large. The second was in the seventh grade, when I was dying of toxcity in my blood. The doctors told my Mom that my liver was putting out so many enzymes that my blood was becoming toxic. I remember her praying in her bedroom, and the next report came back with totally normal blood. The final one was an accident in 2005, when a kid broadsided my pickup, trapping me in the truck, and the truck on fire. No one could have opened that door, because it was jammed hard, metal on metal. A voice spoke and said, "Son, try the handle." Despite trying before, I did again, and even as I put my hand on the door handle, the door came loose and opened on it's own. Soli Deo Gloria! Hallelujah!

So, miracles still happen today. But, they occur to bring God the glory. But, as far as pentecostalism is concerned, I can no longer validate the experience in the light of scripture.

If I am wrong, I am wrong. But, I believe I may be right according to scripture. If not, please correct me, and help me grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thank you.
 
I have known others who have come out of Pentecostalism and said essentially the same thing -- "What we were doing in the name of spiritual gifts, was not of God."

As you say, this does not deny the miraculous work of God today in people's lives. In my humble opinion, God heals today, but he does not give us "healers." God speaks to us today, but he does not give us "prophets" who speak infallible words of "knowledge" from Him.
 
Thank you for your story. I have a neighbor with a similar profession.He belongs to the Spirit in Truth Fellowship International- an offshoot of The Way. He is outwardly religious and a nice guy, but denies the deity of Christ, personhood of the Holy Spirit, etc. His litmus test for being a "true Christian" is whether one can speak in tongues.

What is more sad is that he is a youth group leader at St. Marks Methodist Church in Indialantic, FL with the pastor having full knowledge of his beliefs. But I should note that that pastor is a strong supporter of Brian McLaren, Todd Bell, etc.
 
Dear William,

I can't tell you how encouraging your post is. I presently have a friend here who is Pentecostal, and it can be incredibly difficult to open the Word together. My wife's aunt is dying and we fear for her as well, for the same reasons. Her sensationalistic approach to God is anything but comforting. But we may get to spend some time with her next month. Your prayers would be appreciated.

It's easy to over-react to your past. As men, we over-react; we're reactionary. If we see liscentiousness then we tend toward legalism. If we see legalism we tend to react with license. The same goes with the miraculous. The whole sensational charismania scares many and they react by saying that nothing exists, rather than being careful, prudent, wise and discerning. But, as you are working through, all we can do is hold on to what God does tell us, and strive to conform our minds ever more to His.

As far as reformed doctrine, you will get some variety on this issue. As you've no doubt read, some adhere to complete cessation, while others are clearly more open. But I don't think any adhere to the "practice" of sign gifts, though there is a group along the lines of Mahaney that might defy that statement.

I think you're on the right path. A quick overview: Tongues were practiced in Acts four times, each time to a distinct group of people (Jews from all over, Gentiles, those baptized with John's baptism and Samaritans). Each time a group of people was affirmed in the Gospel. Other than that we have the account of Paul writing to the Corinthians, who appear to be the Pentecostals of his day, though obviously much different. He points out clearly that tongues are for unbelievers. They are a means by which God calls men unto himself, if they are indeed practiced today (1 Cor 14:22). I've not witnessed tongues in a credible fashion, but have heard third hand stories. I hold them loosely, knowing God can do whatever He desires to accomplish His purposes. But Paul also says that tongues are not a sign to those who believe (same verse). So, what business does the church have in "practicing" tongues. No doubt you've contemplated this passage to some degree in the past. And, I can't say for sure what your past is, but I've found that most who adhere to the manifestation of tongues today focus on v. 39 and base the rest of their understanding on that one verse as their foundation, in many ways ignoring the clarity in the rest of the chapter. It's also interesting that Corinth is the only town in which Paul has to deal with this. It's not mentioned in his other epistles. I don't know if that was clarity or redundancy for you brother. Either way, I hope it is at least encouraging.

I rejoice with you William. May God continue His mighty work in your heart.
 
My mother came out of a church around 1988 which believed in speaking in tongues. She has held to reformed thought for about 7-8 yrs and she has been in a reformed church for about 5-6yrs and she just this year was convinced by earnest study that speaking in tongues isn't of God now days. I couldn't convince her nor our pastor, but she finally has gotten there! It was a comfort thing for her. She had agreed with us that we shouldn't do it in church but she always felt comforted by doing so in her prayer closet. I'm very pleased that this desire is now gone from her. I think some people feel that if they speak a "language" that isn't earthly then they are speaking spiritual language and can REALLY talk to God...maybe they feel they're getting through to Him better.
 
Welcome to the board and our family. In my journey. I spent quite some time in charismatic circles, so I understand where you are coming from. My biggest problem with those who hold to such beliefs is their lack of respect for the Sovereignty of God. If you were sick and they prayed for you and you were not healed, then the problem was with you. You did not have enough faith or you had sin in you life, etc. God surely does heal people today (as we too have had personal healing), but He is Sovereign and does so at His good pleasure and for His own glory. It is not a "right" as some have claimed, it is all grace.
 
William Price said:
I have made for myself three homemade frappachinos this morning. On a sugar and coffee high! :D
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A frap guy, eh? Watch out, you'll get a little ribbing about that around here. You know, real men chew their coffee before swallowing. But I'll sit down with a frap any day. mmmmmmm Up here I'll make them, or iced coffee, in the summer. But this time of year it's a hot latte made with whole milk and freshly ground beans. mmmmm. We have a coffee thread around here somewhere...
 
Believers at various times may have been blessed to have prophets and apostles around, performing signs and wonders, but they have always put their faith in the sovereign God, and not in a specific outcome for their hope.

Miracles are to be expected... if God is real, and if prayer by the Christian is true communication with his God.

However, miracles are not to be expected... as if we had any right to expect a supernatural intervention for no other reason than that we asked for it. What? are our own little children well-treated if they get whatever they wish for? How much more, then, when our God--who puts us in various circumstances--lets those occasions serve his purpose for us.

Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.

The Shunammite woman didn't necessarily think she was getting a miracle, 2Ki.4:28. So it isn't as though people living in elder days thought they could claim miracles from God. Nor were people healed in Jesus' day healed qualitatively on the basis of having more or less faith. When it is said of Nazareth, Mat 13:58 "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief," we are to understand that this was not because those who came didn't have a mustard's grain of faith, but that they would not COME to him and be healed!

The problem with seeking miracles today is that is all people seem to be seeking. They are as pathetic as those who came to Jesus for the excitement, but not to believe in him. God has not promised anyone miraculous healing, unless it is from the curse of sin, and he has explained the availability of this gift.

If God seems to deliver you or someone else in a miraculous way, thank him for that deliverance by processes you are not aware of. Just don't assume that therefore you or anyone else has more reason to believe in God. Lk.16:31 "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Believers at various times may have been blessed to have prophets and apostles around, performing signs and wonders, but they have always put their faith in the sovereign God, and not in a specific outcome for their hope.

Miracles are to be expected... if God is real, and if prayer by the Christian is true communication with his God.

However, miracles are not to be expected... as if we had any right to expect a supernatural intervention for no other reason than that we asked for it. What? are our own little children well-treated if they get whatever they wish for? How much more, then, when our God--who puts us in various circumstances--lets those occasions serve his purpose for us.

Rom 14:8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.

The Shunammite woman didn't necessarily think she was getting a miracle, 2Ki.4:28. So it isn't as though people living in elder days thought they could claim miracles from God. Nor were people healed in Jesus' day healed qualitatively on the basis of having more or less faith. When it is said of Nazareth, Mat 13:58 "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief," we are to understand that this was not because those who came didn't have a mustard's grain of faith, but that they would not COME to him and be healed!

The problem with seeking miracles today is that is all people seem to be seeking. They are as pathetic as those who came to Jesus for the excitement, but not to believe in him. God has not promised anyone miraculous healing, unless it is from the curse of sin, and he has explained the availability of this gift.

If God seems to deliver you or someone else in a miraculous way, thank him for that deliverance by processes you are not aware of. Just don't assume that therefore you or anyone else has more reason to believe in God. Lk.16:31 "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Oh for all sake never! God performed the miracle, and it is only to His glory. Never would I ever attribute this to a greater faith in God or anything else. When I say Soli Deo Gloria, they are not just empty words with me. I mean it to the last syllabel. he did it, and I know He can do other miracles as well. I do not expect such, but know He is able, and that is good enough.
 
I came out of Pentecostalism also. My Father who is now a ordained PCA minister was a heavily pentecostal minister for 20yrs. and now also a cessationist, his reason......Holy Writ
 
William Price said:
Contra_Mundum said:
Believers ...
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Oh for all sake never! God performed the miracle, and it is only to His glory. Never would I ever attribute this to a greater faith in God or anything else. When I say Soli Deo Gloria, they are not just empty words with me. I mean it to the last syllabel. he did it, and I know He can do other miracles as well. I do not expect such, but know He is able, and that is good enough.
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I'm not getting after you, Will. Just trying to put out a good, balanced perspective on the whole thing. Blessings.
 
I am praising God with you, William. I pray that our Lord would guide you (and the rest of us!) further into the truth of His Word and allow us to serve and glorify Him more than ever. Thank you for your encouraging testimony!
 
Thank you for your testimony Brother and I echo Bruce's sentiment. In fact, Christ stated that a wicked and perverse generation looks for a sign.

I've been meditating on this passage for a few weeks now:
Luke 5:17-26
17 On one of those days, as he was teaching, Pharisees and oteachers of the law were sitting there, who had come from every village of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem. And pthe power of the Lord was with him to heal.3 18 qAnd behold, some men were bringing ron a bed a man who was paralyzed, and they were seeking to bring him in and lay him before Jesus, 19 but finding no way to bring him in, because of the crowd, they went up on sthe roof and let him down with his bed tthrough the tiles into the midst before Jesus. 20 And uwhen he saw their faith, he said, “Man, vyour sins are forgiven you.” 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to question, saying, “Who is this who speaks wblasphemies? xWho can forgive sins but God alone?” 22 When Jesus yperceived their thoughts, he answered them, “Why do you question in your hearts? 23 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 24 But that you may know that zthe Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he said to the man who was paralyzed—“I say to you, rise, pick up your bed and go home.” 25 And immediately he rose up before them and picked up what he had been lying on and went home, aglorifying God. 26 And amazement seized them all, and they aglorified God and were filled awith awe, saying, “We have seen extraordinary things today.”
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Most who read this would be amazed at the healing of a paralytic and, indeed, I am moved with tears at the compassion shown to the man by our Savior. But, notice that what Christ first does for this man is forgive his sins. The Pharisees sense the problem: Who can forgive sins but God. They are absolutely right.

The truly profound thing, when we get beyond feeding our need to be amazed by signs, is that God came in the flesh to conquer sin and death. In John 6, Christ lost nearly every disciple He had. He had fed thousands the day previously and now the people were back for the "miracle man". He preached in such a way as to offend nearly everyone present. In one of my favorite interchanges in the Scriptures, He turns to the Twelve:
67 So Jesus said to gthe Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have hthe words of eternal life, 69 and iwe have believed, and have come to know, that jyou are kthe Holy One of God.”
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That is why I follow Christ, yet He slay me.

My daughter, Anna, will be 5 years old and I will give my annual testimony of a life saved from near death at birth and healing from strokes. I know that God performed it and give glory to Him. Yet, my hope was in Him even from the moment of the news of her near death.

As you noted, many Charismatics are looking to the sensations and wonders instead of God. They can often quote the passages that speak about Spiritual gifts. They even know much about the End Times. But Justification, the Trinity, Sanctification, the Incarnation, the Atonement, ..... These are the life blood of a Church and they're just not headline news.

In fact, I'm convinced that if people had a better appreciation for the Providence of God there would be much less effort to find a miracle in every corner. The care with which God upholds and directs all things is over-awing. I love this section from the Confessions of Saint Augustine that beautifully show God showing His care in the normal raising and suckling of the infant Augustine:
Yet suffer me to speak unto Thy mercy, me, dust and ashes. Yet suffer me to speak, since I speak to Thy mercy, and not to scornful man. Thou too, perhaps, despisest me, yet wilt Thou return and have compassion upon me. For what would I say, O Lord my God, but that I know not whence I came into this dying life (shall I call it?) or living death. Then immediately did the comforts of Thy compassion take me up, as I heard (for I remember it not) from the parents of my flesh, out of whose substance Thou didst sometime fashion me. Thus there received me the comforts of woman's milk. For neither my mother nor my nurses stored their own breasts for me; but Thou didst bestow the food of my infancy through them, according to Thine ordinance, whereby Thou distributest Thy riches through the hidden springs of all things. Thou also gavest me to desire no more than Thou gavest; and to my nurses willingly to give me what Thou gavest them. For they, with a heaven-taught affection, willingly gave me what they abounded with from Thee. For this my good from them, was good for them. Nor, indeed, from them was it, but through them; for from Thee, O God, are all good things, and from my God is all my health. This I since learned, Thou, through these Thy gifts, within me and without, proclaiming Thyself unto me. For then I knew but to suck; to repose in what pleased, and cry at what offended my flesh; nothing more.

Afterwards I began to smile; first in sleep, then waking: for so it was told me of myself, and I believed it; for we see the like in other infants, though of myself I remember it not. Thus, little by little, I became conscious where I was; and to have a wish to express my wishes to those who could content them, and I could not; for the wishes were within me, and they without; nor could they by any sense of theirs enter within my spirit. So I flung about at random limbs and voice, making the few signs I could, and such as I could, like, though in truth very little like, what I wished. And when I was not presently obeyed (my wishes being hurtful or unintelligible), then I was indignant with my elders for not submitting to me, with those owing me no service, for not serving me; and avenged myself on them by tears. Such have I learnt infants to be from observing them; and that I was myself such, they, all unconscious, have shown me better than my nurses who knew it.

And, lo! my infancy died long since, and I live. But Thou, Lord, who for ever livest, and in whom nothing dies: for before the foundation of the worlds, and before all that can be called “before,” Thou art, and art God and Lord of all which Thou hast created: in Thee abide, fixed for ever, the first causes of all things unabiding; and of all things changeable, the springs abide in Thee unchangeable: and in Thee live the eternal reasons of all things unreasoning and temporal. Say, Lord, to me, Thy suppliant; say, all-pitying, to me, Thy pitiable one; say, did my infancy succeed another age of mine that died before it? was it that which I spent within my mother's womb? for of that I have heard somewhat, and have myself seen women with child? and what before that life again, O God my joy, was I any where or any body? For this have I none to tell me, neither father nor mother, nor experience of others, nor mine own memory. Dost Thou mock me for asking this, and bid me praise Thee and acknowledge Thee, for that I do know?

I acknowledge Thee, Lord of heaven and earth, and praise Thee for my first rudiments of being, and my infancy, whereof I remember nothing; for Thou hast appointed that man should from others guess much as to himself; and believe much on the strength of weak females. Even then I had being and life, and (at my infancy's close) I could seek for signs whereby to make known to others my sensations. Whence could such a being be, save from Thee, Lord? Shall any be his own artificer? or can there elsewhere be derived any vein, which may stream essence and life into us, save from thee, O Lord, in whom essence and life are one? for Thou Thyself art supremely Essence and Life. For Thou art most high, and art not changed, neither in Thee doth to-day come to a close; yet in Thee doth it come to a close; because all such things also are in Thee. For they had no way to pass away, unless Thou upheldest them. And since Thy years fail not, Thy years are one to-day. How many of ours and our fathers’ years have flowed away through Thy “to-day,” and from it received the measure and the mould of such being as they had; and still others shall flow away, and so receive the mould of their degree of being. But Thou art still the same, and all things of tomorrow, and all beyond, and all of yesterday, and all behind it, Thou hast done to-day. What is it to me, though any comprehend not this? Let him also rejoice and say, What thing is this? Let him rejoice even thus! and be content rather by not discovering to discover Thee, than by discovering not to discover Thee.
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Our God is worthy of praise every day for His Sovereign care and we need not wait for a sign or wonder to praise Him. In fact, He had to give repeated signs and wonders to the spiritually dull people in the Wilderness because they were so wont to forget His benefits. We are commanded to remember our faithful God and what He has done and not merely what He might do for us by new signs.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
William Price said:
Contra_Mundum said:
Believers ...
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Oh for all sake never! God performed the miracle, and it is only to His glory. Never would I ever attribute this to a greater faith in God or anything else. When I say Soli Deo Gloria, they are not just empty words with me. I mean it to the last syllabel. he did it, and I know He can do other miracles as well. I do not expect such, but know He is able, and that is good enough.
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I'm not getting after you, Will. Just trying to put out a good, balanced perspective on the whole thing. Blessings.
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Thank you brother for the comment. Balence is good. Thanks for applying balence to this discussion.
 
There have been several threads on Puritan Board about this topic, including this one recently, that may be helpful:

http://www.puritanboard.com/f62/brief-argument-s-cessationism-44288/

You can use the search feature in the upper right to locate threads on this and related topics.

It is important you understand a systematic theology (such as the Westminster Confession) of all of Scripture, and many things will become clearer as you seek to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Understanding the Arminian influenced theology, dispensational theology and lack of a systematic theology (no confession) will probably more come as a by product of the study of the true doctrines of Scripture- the doctrines of grace ("five points"), covenant theology, and a systematic theology of all of Scripture (confession).

May you grow in the grace and knowledge of Him- for His Honor and His Glory.
 
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