weird issues w/ Christmas on Sunday

[Kaalvenist]

Our services will continue as usual. I doubt that my pastor will mention anything about it, except possible allusions to Gal. 4:10, 11 or Col. 2:23. Or both.

 

[Scott]

"It's both curious and sad, but such is the nature of will worship."

Tom: You are an interesting fellow! Your interest in Rick Warren seems a surprising bedfellow with your views on holidays. Not necessarily inconsistent, but I bet not many old school RPWers see much merit in Warren (and that is not a comment on the merits of what Warren teaches, just an observation about who likes him and doesn't).

The interesting thing to me is that Christmas normally means more preaching and teaching of God's word. Usually there is an extra service on another day of the week than Sunday that people attend in addition to the Sunday worship. This year is the total opposite!

 

[Scott]

I'm a secretary in a PCA church & I've already corrected 2 people who assumed we would not have ANY worship services on December 25th. One was an ELDER - the other seemed severely put out!

Erin: I am aware of similar problems. Yikes!

 

[JohnV]

What I find so curious is that this is so different than what I've grown up with. We would take the Santa out of Christmas instead of taking Christ out of Christmas. We don't easily question a reason to get together for worship on days of thanksgiving, of which we had seven. What else would one do with Christmas? Give presents and celebrate Santa? If only the original St. Nicholas knew what we were doing. It is such a joy to be able to celebrate the single most event in history, one so important that even the angels helped in the celebration only this one time. It will not happen again until Christ returns. And His death and resurrection, His ascent, and His return are all part of the Christmas celebrations for us. Always has been, as far back as I can remember.

It is just so extraordinary to me.

 

[Scott]

John: I wish that the mindset you describe was common here! I agree with you 100 percent. My wife and I always attend a Christmas day service, even though our church does not nomrally have one (except when Christmas falls on a Sunday).

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by Scott
"It's both curious and sad, but such is the nature of will worship."

Tom: You are an interesting fellow!

That is a most generous comment!

Originally posted by Scott

Your interest in Rick Warren seems a surprising bedfellow with your views on holidays. Not necessarily inconsistent, but I bet not many old school RPWers see much merit in Warren (and that is not a comment on the merits of what Warren teaches, just an observation about who likes him and doesn't).

I do not pretend to judge Rick Warren by the same standards that I would judge confessional Presbyterians. If RW had taken ordination vows from the OPC or PCA I would all over him like white on rice. But he has not, so I'm more generous in my evaluation of his ministry.

Originally posted by Scott

The interesting thing to me is that Christmas normally means more preaching and teaching of God's word. Usually there is an extra service on another day of the week than Sunday that people attend in addition to the Sunday worship. This year is the total opposite!

Now I think you are being very generous. What Christimas has pretty much come to be is more cantatas and "sing ins" than the rest of the year. Perhaps an extra sermon at some special "Christmas Eve" service, but usually abbreviated so as to not detract from the choir's special selections which they have worked so hard for the last month or so to perfect.

It's odd to me that the same reformed chuches that treat Christmas and other human holidays special are often the same ones which also neglect the regular (weekly) observance of the Lord's Supper. We have to make it "more special" by only having it a few times a year.

Call me a humbug, but what I long for is that every weekly season be treated just the same -- honoring to God in all things, with good old fashioned gospel preaching and without the need for bells and whistles and other forms of will worship.

 

[Scott]

Allot of churches have good gospel preaching at Christmas services. Most servvices involve standard elements of public worship, preaching, reading the word, singing, and prayer. It does seem odd to me when people argue that the RPW should prohibit services even if they contain only the approved elements of worship. It is essentially using the RPW to shut down the the public reading/preaching of the Word. For example, a Christmas Eve service on a Tuesday night.

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by Scott
It does seem odd to me when people argue that the RPW should prohibit services even if they contain only the approved elements of worship. It is essentially using the RPW to shut down the the public reading/preaching of the Word. For example, a Christmas Eve service on a Tuesday night.

I think what people disapprove of is the seasonality of such behavior, tied as it is to some pagan or otherwise unverifiable date on which Christ allegedly was born.

If a congregation had a service on Sunday morning and one again on Sunday evening, and a gathering mid week, then to introduce some annual observance based on nothing other than an historical whim seems unnecessary at best.

I realize tis the season for sentimental thinking. People get all mushy with thoughts of the baby Jesus in the manger. So it is hard to discuss why such behavior is not necessarily pleasing to God without getting into good intentions and other extraneous issues.

As Calvin wrote:

I know how difficult it is to persuade the world that God disapproves of all modes of worship not expressly sanctioned by his word. The opposite persuasion which cleaves to them, being seated, as it were, in their very bones and marrow, is, that whatever they do has in itself a sufficient sanction, provided it exhibits some kind of zeal for the honor of God. But since God not only regards as fruitless, but also plainly abominates, whatever we undertake from zeal to his worship, if at variance with his command, what do we gain by a contrary course? The words of God are clear and distinct, "Obedience is better than sacrifice." "In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men," (1 Sam. 15:22; Matt. 15:9). Every addition to his word, especially in this matter, is a lie. Mere "will worship" (ethelothreeskeia) is vanity. This is the decision, and when once the judge has decided, it is no longer time to debate.

I do not see how his description cannot apply to what we commonly refer to as "Christmas Eve Services".

[Edited on 11-28-2005 by tcalbrecht]

 

[JohnV]

I do not see how his description cannot apply to what we commonly refer to as "Christmas Eve Services".

Do you not see how this begs the question, Tom? You do not see what others see; others do not see what you see. The question is who is seeing the right thing, and how do we know it is the right thing?

 

[tcalbrecht]

Originally posted by JohnV

I do not see how his description cannot apply to what we commonly refer to as "Christmas Eve Services".

Do you not see how this begs the question, Tom? You do not see what others see; others do not see what you see. The question is who is seeing the right thing, and how do we know it is the right thing?

I'm not sure it is begging the question. But I agree that we are not seeing the same thing. Confessional Presbyterians, at least until the mid 1800s, did not countenance the modern view of Christmas observance. Thus, I do not understand how confessional Presbyterians got to this situation. The Confession did not change, so the Presbyterians must have changed. History tells us that this was not a conscious decision, at least not by the church at large. In 1899, the PCUS was still making statements such as:

There is no warrant in Scripture for the observance of Christmas and Easter as holydays, rather the contrary (see Gal. 4:9-11; Col. 2:16-21), and such observance is contrary to the principles of the Reformed faith, conducive to will-worship, and not in harmony with the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It seems as if, over time, individual presbyteries simply turned a blind eye to the non-confessional practices of certain churches. Later more and more Presbyterian churches simply ignored the confession and adopted the practices of their non-reformed fellow travelers.

What Bible verses suddenly appeared to justify this long held view among Presbyterians that Christmas was not to be observed in the church of the Lord Jesus Christ?

The sad bit is that we are are too far along to be sanctioning Presbyterian churches for their non-confessional practices. Why are we surprised when other false practices slip in unnoticed?

 

[yeutter]

I think it is wonderful that Covenanting Presbyterians and Primitive Babtists will be joining Continental Reformers and Anglicans in Church on the 25th of Dec.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Christ told us to remember his death (Lord's Supper) and resurrection (the Lord's Day). Where did he say to remember his birth?

 

[SolaScriptura]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Christ told us to remember his death (Lord's Supper) and resurrection (the Lord's Day). Where did he say to remember his birth?

Actually, when Jesus said to do this "in remembrance of me" he was probably referring to the sum total of both his life and death. This would include his birth...

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Christ told us to remember his death (Lord's Supper) and resurrection (the Lord's Day). Where did he say to remember his birth?

Actually, when Jesus said to do this "in remembrance of me" he was probably referring to the sum total of both his life and death. This would include his birth...

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "œThis is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

I think the clear reference is to his sacrifice on the Cross. And, there is still the necessity for a command from God to institute a holy day in remembrance of His birth, which there is none (if you hold to the WCF and its conception of worship).

 

[Me Died Blue]

{Moderate}

Upon starting this thread, Scott requested, "Please do not devolve into a discussion of whether Christmas is permitted by the RPW." The discussion has avoided such thus far, so let's not change that now.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

 

[NaphtaliPress]

How Xmas came to American Presbyterianism

For what it's worth, this is what I found as far as how xmas and holy day observance came into American Presbyterianism.

From, Chris Coldwell, "The Religious Observance of Christmas and "˜Holy Days´ in American Presbyterianism." From The Blue Banner, v. 8 #9-10, September/October 1999.
See http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/americanxmas.htm

The changing tide of opinion
The observance of "˜holy days´ crept slowing into the Presbyterian Church through popular and cultural pressures. {84} The tide began to turn in the late 19th century. In 1889, Robert L. Dabney could still write that the use of organs in worship would open the door to "˜holy days´ and more ritualistic worship in the Southern Presbyterian Church. {85}

That a denomination, professing like ours to be anti-prelatic and anti-ritualistic, should throw down the bulwarks of their argument against these errors by this recent innovation appears little short of lunacy. Prelatists undertake every step of the argument which these Presbyterians use for their organ, and advance them in a parallel manner to defend the re-introduction of the Passover or Easter, of Whitsuntide, of human priests and priestly vestments, and of chrism, into the gospel church.

Thompson observes, "œThe breakover seems to have come first in the Sunday schools, or in festivities arranged for the Sunday school children in the church auditorium." {86} Katherine Lambert Richards notes:

A résumé of the development of Christmas observance in the Protestant Sunday-schools of the United States makes one thing clear; Christmas returned to Protestant church life because the rank and file of the membership wanted it. It made its way against official opposition in many denominations until there were so many local groups celebrating December twenty-fifth as the birthday of Jesus that opposition was futile and indifference impossible. Even when the denomination accepted Christmas as part of the church year its position was magnified and its celebration increased in response to popular desire. As time went on, Sunday-school and other denominational leaders played a larger part in the promotion of certain types of Christmas observances but as a rule the local schools have remained the chief experiment stations. Christmas preceded other church festivals in general recognition and has continued to overshadow them in popular esteem. {87}

Regarding Presbyterians, Richards also writes: {88}

Like the Congregationalists, the Baptists and Presbyterians repudiated "˜all the saints´ days´ and observed "œthe Lord´s day as the Sabbath and the only season of holy time commanded to Christians." It was 1851 before the Presbyterians produced a Sunday-school magazine, The Sabbath School Visitor. Its first approach to a Christmas reference came in the number for December 1, 1853, where, in a serial history of the Presbyterian Church, the action of the Assembly of 1618 at Perth in assenting to the observance of holidays was disapproved. December fifteenth of the following year brought an article on the birth of Christ which urged the careful instruction of children in the Scriptural accounts of the nativity and the correction of all impressions received from tradition only. Although this procedure was expected to convince the children that Christmas was a most unlikely date for Jesus´ birth no objection was made to its observance; indeed the author used the occasion to urge the worship of the risen and exalted Saviour. The December numbers from 1855 to 1858 contained poems, pictures and articles, on the nativity of Jesus but from 1859 to 1865 the subject of Christmas was dropped from the pages of the Sabbath School Visitor. Apparently the fires of the Christmas controversy were burning low. Though not yet accepted by the denomination as a whole, it could be mentioned and its religious as well as holiday, character could be recognized.
The drift of the Presbyterian attitude toward Christmas is further described in the letters of James W. Alexander, son of a Presbyterian minister and himself, teacher at Princeton Seminary, pastor of the Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church in New York City and prolific writer for the American Sunday-school Union. On December 25, 1838, Dr. Alexander ventured to wish his correspondent a Merry Christmas; on Christmas Day of 1843, he made one of a family reunion at his father´s house in Princeton. In 1845 he speaks of Christmas meetings as common in New York City on Christmas. In 1851 Christmas saw Dr. Alexander in nine churches "“ five Roman Catholic, one Unitarian, and three Episcopal. His own longing for "œanniversary festivals" was openly expressed next year, only to be set aside in obedience to Presbyterian tenets, as "œagainst the second commandment." {89} Another three years and "œthree hundred and fifty urchins and urchinesses" assembled on Christmas Day for a cake and candy fête in the Mission Chapel of the Fifth Avenue Church. Christmas, as a holiday, seemed to hold fewer dangers than Christmas as a religious festival. At all events it enabled Presbyterians to join in the pleasures of the season without a complete rejection of the historical attitude of the denomination on the matter of "œset days." The various divisions which marked the history of American Presbyterianism from 1810 to 1860 did not materially affect the attitude toward Christmas of the different groups. If anything the separating bodies were the more vigorous in their rejection of the day."

The official sanction and religious observance of "˜holy days´ did not come easily nor quickly however. The General Assembly of the Southern Presbyterian Church proclaimed in 1899 that there was no Scriptural warrant to observe Christmas and Easter. However, despite renewing this objection in 1903, 1913 and 1916, the opposition was collapsing in the face of wide observance and acceptance.

With the twentieth century the Southern Presbyterian, or the Presbyterian Church in the United States, to use its official title, joined the ranks of Christmas-keeping denominations. The process followed the familiar lines of official disapproval and ignoring of the day, of an increasing number of local celebrations, many of which were of the holiday, Santa Claus, party type, and finally of official recognition and attempts to change the character of the local observance.{90}

In 1921 the General Assembly did not repeat its former injunctions against Christmas and Easter observance. In 1950 the religious observance of days finally received official sanction by the Assembly. {91} Julius Melton documents that the Northern Presbyterian Church likewise did not officially embrace "˜holy days´ until the 20th century. The 1906 edition of the Book of Common Worship approached the Christian year cautiously. By the 1932 revision, Melton notes the "œPresbyterians were moving more into the ecumenical mainstream" with an "œheightened emphasis given to the Christian year." {92} The United Presbyterian Church, as late as 1926, did not officially recognize "˜holy days.´ {93} The Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America adopted a new directory for worship in 1945, and its ambiguity allowed observance of days to spread in that church, though some still contend against the practice. This occurred despite the fact that the RPCNA Covenant of 1871, which they affirm is still binding, requires adherence to the original Westminster Directory. {94} The Associate Reformed Presbyterian constitution contained the wording of the Westminster Directory appendix against "œFestival days, commonly called holy-days" until 1975. {95}
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{84} For treatments on the history and cultural development of Christmas observance in America see Stephen Nissenbaum, The Battle for Christmas: A social and cultural history of Christmas that shows how it was transformed from an unruly carnival season into the quintessential American Family Holiday (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1997); Penne L. Rested, Christmas in America A History (New York: Oxford University Press, 1995); Katherine Lambert Richards, How Christmas Came to the Sunday-Schools: The Observance of Christmas in the Protestant church schools of the United States, an historical study (New York: Dodd, Mead & Company, 1934).
{85} "œDr. Girardeau's "˜Instrumental Music in Public Worship´" The Presbyterian Quarterly, July 1889.
{86} Ibid, 2.434-435.
{87} Richards, 220
{88} Richards, 90-92.
{89} Dr. Alexander had written "œThe degree of excess and abuse which occurs on set days, will be in proportion to the decay of religious feeling among a people; but I am by no means sure that these are greatly increased by set days. Yet as a good son of Mother Church, I subside into the tenet, that all such feasts are against the second commandment." John Hall, Forty years´ familiar letters of James W. Alexander, D. D. (New York: Scribner, 1860) 2.181.
{90} Richards, 186.
{91} Ibid, 3.350-353.
{92} Julius Melton, Presbyterian Worship in America (Richmond VA: John Knox Press, 1967) 138.
{93} The Confessional Statement and The Book of Government and Worship (Pittsburgh: The United Presbyterian Board of Publication and Bible School Work, 1926). This denomination merged into the Northern church in 1958. The change in practice had already begun as in other denominations. G. I. Williamson writes, "œI once had opportunity to discuss this subject {bringing in worship practices without scriptural support} with an elderly minister of the old United Presbyterian denomination. I asked him what brought that church to change its stand on the exclusive use of psalms in worship, as it did in the 1925 creedal revision. His answer was both interesting and revealing. He said the church had already started, some years before, to celebrate such days as Christmas. After these had become well-entrenched, he said, the pressure began to grow to bring in 'appropriate' music." The Scriptural Regulative Principle of Worship (Paper presented at the 1990 Psalmody Conference, Bonclarken, Flat Rock NC, 1990).
{94} The Constitution of the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America Being Its Standards Subordinate to the Word of God The Confession of Faith, the Larger and Shorter Catechisms, the Testimony, the Directory for Church Government, the Book of Discipline, and the Directory for the Worship of God. Together with Official Vows and Forms (Pittsburgh: RPCNA Board of Education and Publication, 1989).
{95} Constitution of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (1799, 1908; 1955). Compare with The Book of Worship of the ARP Church, as Approved by the General Synod in 1975.