Wearing a Collar in the PCA!

[Andrew P.C.]

First to you scenario: Three things I can think of would be 1) if you have seen an eastern orthodox vestment or roman catholic vestment, the reformed gown is significantly different, and you'd be able to tell 2) wearing a gown visibly separates you from the rest of the church, being a visible reminder that your calling is unique and should be held in honor, knowing that you are speaking the words of God 3) even if you wore an authoritative "suit", it would still be common and not unique. Even though the minister is part of the church, he is still set apart from the rest of the members because of his calling to shepherd the flock. You could wear a suit, but so can everyone else in the congregation. Think about it this way too: the sacraments are visible signs to remind us. We are weak and as weak humans, we need visible signs to remind us of things. This is what the gown does. It reminds us that when the minister is going through the liturgy, and in the dialogue, he speaks as God speaks. We must remember that there is a time and place when we can be casual with our minister, but when he is up there, that is not the time. Hope this helps.

 

[Scottish Lass]

As far as special clothing to set one apart in church/during worship, doesn't standing up front in the pulpit and/or behind a lectern set the pastor apart?

And we now have two different tracks of thought, I think---one about clothing during preaching and one about clothing while out and about.

 

[Marrow Man]

You could wear a suit, but so can everyone else in the congregation. Think about it this way too: the sacraments are visible signs to remind us. We are weak and as weak humans, we need visible signs to remind us of things. This is what the gown does. It reminds us that when the minister is going through the liturgy, and in the dialogue, he speaks as God speaks. We must remember that there is a time and place when we can be casual with our minister, but when he is up there, that is not the time. Hope this helps.

First, I know you are making an analogy, but it is improper to compare the sacraments to the dress of a minister. That is venturing dangerously close to the whole vestment territory and a violation of the RPW.

Second, there is nothing particularly unique about an academic gown. In our own congregation, I can think of nearly a half-dozen folks who have academic degrees equal to or superior to mine (e.g., two or three Ph.Ds, one J.D.). A gown does not necessary set me apart from them, except for the fact that I would wearing it on a different day of the week than they. There are other things (albeit less visible) that set me apart -- the fact that the congregation called me to be their pastor, the fact that I was set apart by the laying on of hands by the presbytery, then fact that I am standing in front of the congregation reading and proclaiming the word in the authoritatively-recognized place for doing so, delivering the benediction, etc. (things that they cannot do for the most part). I don't think anyone wandering into one of our services has any problem figuring out who the pastor is.

Third, there are practical problems with gowns. They are uncomfortable and hot. I can't just "take it off" during the service as I can with a suit coat. The sleeves are unwieldy and get in the way. Others are find and free to wear them if they want; they are adiaphora as far as I'm concerned. But let's not take something that is a matter of indifference and begin insisting that all ministers should be required to wear one.

 

[Unoriginalname]

First to you scenario: Three things I can think of would be 1) if you have seen an eastern orthodox vestment or roman catholic vestment, the reformed gown is significantly different, and you'd be able to tell 2) wearing a gown visibly separates you from the rest of the church, being a visible reminder that your calling is unique and should be held in honor, knowing that you are speaking the words of God 3) even if you wore an authoritative "suit", it would still be common and not unique. Even though the minister is part of the church, he is still set apart from the rest of the members because of his calling to shepherd the flock. You could wear a suit, but so can everyone else in the congregation. Think about it this way too: the sacraments are visible signs to remind us. We are weak and as weak humans, we need visible signs to remind us of things. This is what the gown does. It reminds us that when the minister is going through the liturgy, and in the dialogue, he speaks as God speaks. We must remember that there is a time and place when we can be casual with our minister, but when he is up there, that is not the time. Hope this helps.

Clearly the gown does not look like a RC or EO vestment but what you attribute to the gown makes it serve the purpose of a vestment. An academic gown was common in the era it was first utilized. It was not made specially for ministry at least in the era it was first used. Yet, by making the gown something unique to a minister and at the same time making an element of worship or a pseudo element by saying that it edifies the congregation, it is functionally a vestment. Gowns are definitely have a wonderful history but to continue to use them for the motivation you are suggesting undermines their purpose in the first place.

 

[Philip]

Clearly the gown does not look like a RC or EO vestment but what you attribute to the gown makes it serve the purpose of a vestment.

A gown or collar generally serves the same purpose as a policeman's uniform: it signifies that the one wearing it is holder of a particular office and, at the moment, is acting in that capacity. If that's the definition of a vestment, it's not one I had ever heard.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

A lot of what goes into a good preaching Geneva gown is proper fit and style. My gown was tailored to fit and I also opted to go with a gown that is buttoned instead of zippered which allows it to breathe quite easily, which eliminates a lot of the problems some have noted. Here is my ugly mug in the Geneva Gown I wear every Lord's Day.

 

[py3ak]

The great advantage to a gown is the ability to raise your arms and look like a giant black bat about to swoop down out of the pulpit.

 

[michaelspotts]

In the interest of full-disclosure, I attend Oceanside URC. Rev. Hyde indeed dons the deep black gown. Whatever outsiders feel about the robe, we understand that it communicates something other suits cannot—reverent study. We also know it was inexpensive; he has worn the same one for twelve years and it was under $100. So it really is something that can cross cultures, and, I believe, is the standard dress of the Nigerian Reformed Church, which, I add, dwarfs NAPARC.

 

[Unoriginalname]

For all future clarification I do not have a problem with gowns I was only having what I hoped was taken as a friendly debate with Andrew Cunningham. And Rev. Glaser I think you look quite dapper in that gown.

 

[rbcbob]

The OP declares that the purpose of this experiment is "see how my ministry is affected by wearing a clerical collar".

A few questions:

1. By what means will you ascertain how this has affected your ministry?

2. Did the Reformers and Puritans not generally argue against wearing attire that set them apart from the flock?

3. Most of the general population will conclude on sight that you are a professionally religious person. Would it not be better if they concluded by your speech and manner that you are a Christian?

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

As far as the "Reformers" and "Puritans" nearly all of them wore a "Geneva Gown" or similar academic garb in the Pulpit and from what I can recall one of the big fights between Luther and Karlstadt was over "clergy wear". Karlstadt believed the Minister should wear "peasant" garb at all times and there should be no difference in dress between clergy and laity. If you look at this photo of John Owen you can see the "preaching tabs" he wore, which are similar to the "preaching tabs" Jonathan Edwards wore. Jeremiah Burroughs, Samuel Rutherford, and Thomas Watson as well.

Though as an aside I wonder how much the Three Office vs. Two Office discussion plays into this particular issue?

 

[Marrow Man]

In the interest of full-disclosure, I attend Oceanside URC. Rev. Hyde indeed dons the deep black gown. Whatever outsiders feel about the robe, we understand that it communicates something other suits cannot—reverent study. We also know it was inexpensive; he has worn the same one for twelve years and it was under $100. So it really is something that can cross cultures, and, I believe, is the standard dress of the Nigerian Reformed Church, which, I add, dwarfs NAPARC.

Hi Micheal, welcome to the PB. Please fix your signature per the PB rules (see the link in my signature below).

I must say as well that under $100 is quite a bargain. Where did he find such a deal? My in-laws wished to buy me a robe when I graduated from seminary about 8 years ago (I declined, and they bought me a nice suit instead), but I don't believe they were able to find anything under $400-500.

 

[Marrow Man]

Benjamin, the gown in your photo above looks quite nice, but it still has those big puffy sleeves (bat sleeves as Ruben suggested). The one time I tried to wear a gown they got caught on EVERYTHING. Maybe I'm just clumsy.

And it still looks hot.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

I have not had any problems with getting "caught" on anything with the robe I wear. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact it was tailored for my arms so the "bat wing" sleeves sit back from my wrists. I know with my robe, for example, when I hold a Psalter there is about 6" between my wrist and the beginning of the "sweeping" of the sleeve.

 

[Marrow Man]

In all the photos Benjamin posted (all save Edwards), they are wearing caps. Perhaps we can bring that movement back as well.

Caps and powdered wigs

 

[Kevin]

Sam will be experimenting with the wearing of a collar. The modern clergy collar was "invented" by a Presbyterian pastor as a way to modernize the puritan tabs that preceded it and to allow Presbyterian pastors to be distinguished from Roman clergy.

I am very interested in the outcome of his 3 months in uniform.

 

[py3ak]

Over the summer Im going to be conducting an experiment to see how my ministry is affected by wearing a clerical collar

It might be more precise to say that the experiment is in how people's reactions to the collar affect your ministry. Scraps of cloth only have significance for what others think they telegraph.

 

[Philip]

Scraps of cloth only have significance for what others think they telegraph.

Or the way they affect your own self-perception in a particular role.

 

[py3ak]

I should think that reason and maturity would be sufficient to minimize an effect of that kind.

 

[Jeffriesw]

My pastor wears a collar, and I think it's very cool

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

It has a be a cool collar though...

View attachment 2880

 

[Philip]

I should mention that when I was in England, I saw old-school preaching tabs worn occasionally in cathedrals.

 

[Kevin]

tabs are often worn here by PCC ministers.

 

[sdesocio]

This is generating a lot of discussion.
I think the interesting thing is that collars are a part of the Presbyterian tradition. Charles Hodge wore a collar, and there is evidence of at least one Scottish synod urging the use of what was called The band. The removable collar was created by a Presbyterian!

If we look at the Reformers some cared deeply about garb others did not. The fact that Calvin brought a gown into the pulpit declaring his place to be unique in that congregation seems to affirm that acceptance of some distinguishing dress. Do we really think he did not carefully study the idea first.

Many puritans argued against special Eucharistic clothing, ie vestments. Yet if you look at many portraits of early puritans you'll see preachers wearing two long tabs, which were an extension of the band.

To rbcbob
I'm living in the same neighborhood working with the same people, primarily inky my clothing has changed. I plan to wear a collar all summer and see how it affects my ministry. I'm not sure why a pastor making himself available in a unique way removes any imperatives out on the people of God to walk in a worthy manner.

 

[iainduguid]

the history of gowns and bands

I'm always a little surprised by people who think that "Geneva" gowns and bands are distinctively clergy dress. Their origin in a British context was as professional wear for people with academic training (lawyers, doctors and hence also ministers). They were thus the ancient equivalebnt of business professional wear, rather than distinctively religious garments. The specifically religious wear was rejected by the Puritans, though apparently at the Westminster Assembly the Scots argued for retaining the cassock, perhaps with a view to staying warm in draughty churches in winter. They lost.

Growing up in the Chuch of Scotland they were usually worn complete with academic hood. I currently wear bands with an Eton collar and white bow tie as part of my proper academic dress (Cambridge) for occasions like graduation. I purchased the bands from a supplier of legal wear in Canada, where I presume lawyers still dress "properly". So, historically speaking, a gown declares "Look at my education." This may not necessarily be bad in a context where you can become ordained by mail order, but we shouldn't think that there is anything particularly humble or religious about such clothing.

See this source for convenient access to some of the history: http://www.nswbar.asn.au/docs/about/what_is/gowns.pdf.

 

[rbcbob]

I'm always a little surprised by people who think that "Geneva" gowns and bands are distinctively clergy dress. Their origin in a British context was as professional wear for people with academic training (lawyers, doctors and hence also ministers). They were thus the ancient equivalebnt of business professional wear, rather than distinctively religious garments. The specifically religious wear was rejected by the Puritans, though apparently at the Westminster Assembly the Scots argued for retaining the cassock, perhaps with a view to staying warm in draughty churches in winter. They lost.

Growing up in the Chuch of Scotland they were usually worn complete with academic hood. I currently wear bands with an Eton collar and white bow tie as part of my proper academic dress (Cambridge) for occasions like graduation. I purchased the bands from a supplier of legal wear in Canada, where I presume lawyers still dress "properly". So, historically speaking, a gown declares "Look at my education." This may not necessarily be bad in a context where you can become ordained by mail order, but we shouldn't think that there is anything particularly humble or religious about such clothing.

See this source for convenient access to some of the history: http://www.nswbar.asn.au/docs/about/what_is/gowns.pdf.

thanks Ian. Please fix your signature. You may click on the Signature Requirements link below mine.

 

[Philip]

See this source for convenient access to some of the history: http://www.nswbar.asn.au/docs/about/what_is/gowns.pdf.

Note that this is in the context of the legal profession---further, the gowns of this profession were created to distinguish them from the clergy who had previously performed this role. The academic gown was, in fact, originally a formal extension of the monk's robe for academic purposes.