Was Ishmael in the Abrahamic Covenant?

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Halliday

Inactive User
I didn't imply that they were here. If so you misunderstood. I was saying that baptism is the fulfillment of all righteousness (justice).
 

Roldan

Puritan Board Junior
[quote:2a39b5110c]Originally posted by pastorway
Only the elect are in the Covenant of Grace. Surely you are not saying that everyone who was circumcised was elect, are you?
Phillip [/quote:2a39b5110c]

I will ask you the same question, since only the elect are in the Covenant of Grace, do you believe everyone you baptize is elect?:puzzled:

But please take your time for you still have not commented on the other questions that stemed from your view of Ishmael.

Take one at a time, I will be patient.

Grace and Peace
 

Roldan

Puritan Board Junior
[quote:4d1167f353][i:4d1167f353]Originally posted by Halliday[/i:4d1167f353]
I didn't imply that they were here. If so you misunderstood. I was saying that baptism is the fulfillment of all righteousness (justice). [/quote:4d1167f353]

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Grace and Peace:saint:
 

Halliday

Inactive User
All are in covenant with God. That is why He can ban people. That is why He can carry out "eschatons". If you believe in predestination and the fact that God is making all things new then all things including Ishmael are in His covenant. (To be our God and to be His people in communion)
 

Halliday

Inactive User
To be God is to be over all things. We can not limit God to being God over just the elect. He is God and we are to make that known by applying His will to our lives. If Ishmael did this or not is the question. If we do this or not is the question.

[Edited on 2-28-2004 by Halliday]
 

Galahad

Puritan Board Freshman
What is the relationship between circumcision and membership in the covenant community? It is the necessary requirement. A failure to circumcise an infant (or anyone else) meant that the child (or adult) was cut off from the community.

Does administering physical sign garuntee eternal life or must the physical sign be followed with the "circumcision of the heart"? It seems that the reception of the physical sign was mandatory for inclusion in the Earthly Family of God (the Visible Church) but without the circumcision of the heart one was excluded from membership in the Eternal Family of God (the Invisible Church).

Perhaps this has already been dealt with, but it seems that circumcision was required to maintain a "horizontal relationship" within the community but did not garuntee a "verticle relationship" with God.

I realize the language I'm usuing is a bit imprecise, but that's in part because I'm still trying to work through these issues.
-------------
Jeffrey Brannen
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Jeffrey,
You are correct, this has been dealt with extensively. Please use the search function for more.

Briefly, you are correct in your description. However, outside of the example of Ishmael, since Abraham was literally told by God that he was not the son of promise, the mindset of the Israelite was that of faith. God made a specific promise to father Abe, that in which was passed down from his generation to generations to follow. This promise, since it did come from the Lord, was sure. Hence it was viewed as being ratified in each and every seed of faithful Israelites. Those whom were faithless, the result was obvious.........
 

Tertullian

Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:aa68e93925][i:aa68e93925]Originally posted by Galahad[/i:aa68e93925]
What is the relationship between circumcision and membership in the covenant community? It is the necessary requirement. A failure to circumcise an infant (or anyone else) meant that the child (or adult) was cut off from the community. [/quote:aa68e93925]

If it was a necessary requirement than no females were ever part of the Covenant community- in reality their is no logicial connection between the sign of the Covenant and Covenant members- Of God wanted to he could put the sign of the Covenant of grace on no Covenant member but on a rock or rainbow.

[quote:aa68e93925] Does administering physical sign garuntee eternal life or must the physical sign be followed with the "circumcision of the heart"? It seems that the reception of the physical sign was mandatory for inclusion in the Earthly Family of God (the Visible Church) but without the circumcision of the heart one was excluded from membership in the Eternal Family of God (the Invisible Church). [/quote:aa68e93925]

Once, again I would challenge the notion that in order to be part of the visible Church you have to receive the Covenant sign- consider women in the Old Testament- instead we ought to realize that only those God commands receive the Covenant sign and no creature has an a prior right to the Covenant sign.

[quote:aa68e93925] Perhaps this has already been dealt with, but it seems that circumcision was required to maintain a "horizontal relationship" within the community but did not garuntee a "verticle relationship" with God. [/quote:aa68e93925]

circumcision was only required of physical Israelites who were males- not necessirly Covenant members- but if a male did not receive the Covenant sign he broke God's law- but if a female took the Covenant sign she broke God's law (PS Egyptian's practiced female circumcision). So we must look at each sign case by case- before we make general statements we need the precision of a surgeon's tool not the vagueness of a sludge hammer.

To the glory of Christ-Tertullian

[Edited on 3-7-2004 by Tertullian]
 

Tertullian

Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:9bc58bc309][i:9bc58bc309]Originally posted by Halliday[/i:9bc58bc309]
All are in covenant with God. That is why He can ban people. That is why He can carry out "eschatons". If you believe in predestination and the fact that God is making all things new then all things including Ishmael are in His covenant. (To be our God and to be His people in communion) [/quote:9bc58bc309]

All are in Covenant (unregenerate are in Adam's Covenant) but not all are in the Covenant of Grace as the Westminster teaches the Covenant of Grace was made by God with Christ and the elect

[Edited on 3-7-2004 by Tertullian]
 

Halliday

Inactive User
Christ is the fulfillment of the Covenant of Grace. The Covenant of Grace was predestined before creation, started with Adam, established with Abraham, clarified through Moses, and fulfilled in Christ. All are in covenant with God. Ishmael was in covenant. Now was he predestined unto eternal life? That is a limitation of the Covenant of Grace and is for God alone to know. The Covenant of Grace in its fullness is without limitations. All things are in covenant and all things, cosmic in scope, will be restore and made new. Anything else is a false eschatology and a limitation on God's grace.
 

Roldan

Puritan Board Junior
RE-posted for Pastor Way

[quote:15d000a7bc][i:15d000a7bc]Originally posted by Roldan[/i:15d000a7bc]
[quote:15d000a7bc][i:15d000a7bc]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:15d000a7bc]
He was circumcised because Abraham obeyed God's command to do so for every male in his household.

However, I do not see that circumcision meant that a particular person who was circumcised was then automatically in the covenant.

In the passage I quoted He specifically says that Isaac is in the Covenant, but indicates that Ishmael was not.

There is more to being in covenant than just receiving an outward sign.

[b:15d000a7bc]Genesis 17[/b:15d000a7bc]
4"As for Me, behold, My covenant is [u:15d000a7bc]with you[/u:15d000a7bc], and you shall be a father of many nations.

7And I will establish My covenant [u:15d000a7bc]between Me and you and your descendants after you[/u:15d000a7bc] in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8Also I give to [u:15d000a7bc]you and your descendants after you[/u:15d000a7bc] the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

19.....you shall call his name Isaac;[u:15d000a7bc] I will establish My covenant with him[/u:15d000a7bc] for an everlasting covenant, and [u:15d000a7bc]with his descendants[/u:15d000a7bc] after him.

Those who were in the covenant were to inherit the land.....Ishmael had no right to the land promise. And the descendents in the covenant clearly follow Isaac, not Ishmael.

Ishmael did not receive any of the promises from the Abrahamic Covenant. He was given a separate blessing and not included in the covenant promises.

Phillip [/quote:15d000a7bc]

So NOONE but Abraham and Isaac were in the Covenant at that time until Isaac had children then to continue from there?

No onone under Abraham's rule was in the Covenant? Not the males born is his house nor the males bought with money?

Not even Sarah was in the Covenant, for according to your hermeneutics, God established His Covenant with Abraham and Isaac only until Isaac had children THEN the covenant continued with his (Isaacs) descendants.

What you fail to realize is that the Covenant of Grace is ALSO called the Covenant of Circumcision in Acts 7:7-9.

Which meant that because Ishmael was given circumcision he WAS placed in the Covenant of Grace and everyone else who was under Abraham's authority.

I think that Kevin makes a good point:

"In context, God reminds Abraham that any son or male who is not circumcised will be cutoff from the covenant. Ishmael was circumcised, so he could not have been cutoff. Truly, he may not have been regenerate, but we cannot say that for sure. He was an external member. We can say no more or no less."

Roldan: To put it another way. How in the world can someone be cut off or break a Covenant that he is not in?


Also for you to say that Ishmael or anyone at that, who recieved the sign of the Covenant but was not in the Covenant holds no weight biblically and to be honest is contradictory.

:wr50: [/quote:15d000a7bc]
 

pastorway

Puritan Board Senior
You can keep waiting........

The text specifies that Ishmael was not in the Abrahamic Covenant, BUT Isaac was.

So your problem is with the text, not with me. I have enjoyed the circles people keep running around the text.....

"As for Ishmael, I have heard you....BUT My Covenant I will establish with Isaac...."

The BUT excludes Ishmael from the covenant that was established with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Phillip

[Edited on 3-15-04 by pastorway]
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
Phillip,

There is no way you can say that Abraham, Isaac and no others were in the Abrahamic covenant at that time. That si simply reworking the text not matching circular ends.

All of Abraham's household was in covenant with God - for int he felsh of their foreskin the sign of the covenant was given, as with the federal headship of the fathers over thier house. You would be rewriting the OT to say otherwise.

Gen. 17:7, "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you
and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you." Not "desendant".

"And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations." Not individualism.

"Every male child among you shall be circumcised;" This is the covenant of the first 9 verses!

""and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you." The covenant family was insigniated so that the covenant made with Abraham and God would extend to all his family. It is inscribed on all of them to demosntrate the covenant relationship given betwen God and Abraham. His whole family is under the covenant, otherwsie, God is a liar.

It does not get any more plain than God's very own words here:
""He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 "And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

If he is circumcised, he is in covneant with God and has NOT broken it.

Ishmael was still sealed with the covenant sign, though it may have become a curse to him. The everlasting, positive aspects of the covenant were made with Isaac and his descendants, not Ishmael. Thus, we could rightly conclude that though earthly blessing is part of the covenantal status.
 

Roldan

Puritan Board Junior
[quote:64329af3e5][i:64329af3e5]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:64329af3e5]
You can keep waiting........

The text specifies that Ishmael was not in the Abrahamic Covenant, BUT Isaac was.

So your problem is with the text, not with me. I have enjoyed the circles people keep running around the text.....

"As for Ishmael, I have heard you....BUT My Covenant I will establish with Isaac...."

The BUT excludes Ishmael from the covenant that was established with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Phillip

[Edited on 3-15-04 by pastorway] [/quote:64329af3e5]


I did not ask you to repeat yourself on what I already know you believe but to answer the questions that are a result of your exegisis on the text, which by the way Webmaster pretty much settled that. But I wanted you to answer the questions, not that you have to or anything but if you post your view you must be ready to answer questions.

Please do not side step them anymore and just answer them honestly, thats all I ask.

Oh by the way If you re-read my posts you will notice that I dealt specifically with the text and honestly have no need to run circles around anything, if I can't answer something I am humble enough to admit it and study more then come back.
Grace and Peace

[Edited on 3-15-2004 by Roldan]
 

robot

Puritan Board Freshman
God had his own "covenant" with Ishmael: his descendents would be kings. Ishmael feared the Lord, and followed him for the rest of his life. It seems like he was on good terms with Isaac (burial of father together), and that the Lord loved him.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
[quote:a617a439d2][i:a617a439d2]Originally posted by robot[/i:a617a439d2]
God had his own "covenant" with Ishmael: his descendents would be kings. Ishmael feared the Lord, and followed him for the rest of his life. It seems like he was on good terms with Isaac (burial of father together), and that the Lord loved him. [/quote:a617a439d2]
Please explain your understanding of this "covenant" with Ishmael. Do you think it was part of the covenant of grace? What in your mind indicates that God made a covenant? What were Ishmael's obligations in this covenant? And what was promised to him in it? What was promised to his children in it? Some things to consider.
 

Roldan

Puritan Board Junior
Re-Post for Pastor Way

[quote:301d01984f][i:301d01984f]Originally posted by Roldan[/i:301d01984f]
[quote:301d01984f][i:301d01984f]Originally posted by pastorway[/i:301d01984f]
You can keep waiting........

The text specifies that Ishmael was not in the Abrahamic Covenant, BUT Isaac was.

So your problem is with the text, not with me. I have enjoyed the circles people keep running around the text.....

"As for Ishmael, I have heard you....BUT My Covenant I will establish with Isaac...."

The BUT excludes Ishmael from the covenant that was established with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Phillip

[Edited on 3-15-04 by pastorway] [/quote:301d01984f]


I did not ask you to repeat yourself on what I already know you believe but to answer the questions that are a result of your exegisis on the text, which by the way Webmaster pretty much settled that. But I wanted you to answer the questions, not that you have to or anything but if you post your view you must be ready to answer questions.

Please do not side step them anymore and just answer them honestly, thats all I ask.

Oh by the way If you re-read my posts you will notice that I dealt specifically with the text and honestly have no need to run circles around anything, if I can't answer something I am humble enough to admit it and study more then come back.
Grace and Peace

[Edited on 3-15-2004 by Roldan] [/quote:301d01984f]
 

pastorway

Puritan Board Senior
A few questions:

So Ishmael and every one of his descendents that is circumcised is in covenant with God?

Can one receive the sign and not be in covenant?

Why does Moses write that God said that while He would bless Ishmael and his descendents that the covenant was not with him but with Isaac and his children?

The Abrahamic Covenant involved Abraham and his family through Isaac. They were not the only two in the covenant, but the language is pretty clear here that Ishmael was overlooked. Put aside the covenant presuppositions and read the text. It says that God continued the covenant through Isaac and his kids, not through Ishmael. Not through any slave or other person "in the camp." The descendents of Abraham by Sarah - ISAAC and his descendents - were in the covenant.

God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not the God of Abraham, Ishmael, all the Arab nations, Isaac, Jacob, and all Jews. Not all Israel is Israel, and the only descendents of Ishmael that are in covenant with God are those who are also in Christ.

Read the text about the "everlasting covenant."

[quote:fdba654832]15Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her." 17Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" 18And Abraham said to God, "Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!" [b:fdba654832]19Then God said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him[/b:fdba654832]. 20And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. [b:fdba654832]21But My covenant I will establish with Isaac[/b:fdba654832], whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year." [/quote:fdba654832]

He talks about the covenant with Isaac and his descendents then when Abraham wants Ishmael to live before God - ie. be the one in the everlasting covenant, the child of promise (you do realise that Abraham was asking God for Ishmael to be the child of promise) - God says , "NO." He says He will remember and bless Ishmael, "BUT" the covenant will be with Isaac and his children.

How more plain can the text be.

Summary:
1. God says He is going to give Abraham a child that will be part of an everlsting covenant.

2. Abraham says, we can't have a new kid.....Sarai and I are too old...we already have Ishmael.

3. so he asked God to make Ishmael the child of the covenant.

4. God replied "NO", I will bless Ishmael, "BUT" he is not in the everlasting covenant. Isaac and his descendents are in the everlasting covenant.

Phillip

[Edited on 3-19-04 by pastorway]
 

kceaster

Puritan Board Junior
Phillip...

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]So Ishmael and every one of his descendents that is circumcised is in covenant with God?[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

Externally.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]Can one receive the sign and not be in covenant?[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

Again, they can be in the covenant externally, just like baptized dead men walking today.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]Why does Moses write that God said that while He would bless Ishmael and his descendents that the covenant was not with him but with Isaac and his children?[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

What is so hard about this, Phillip? The covenant is [b:6ff4bf36c3]established[/b:6ff4bf36c3] in Isaac and his line. All the males of Abraham's household were in the covenant.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]The Abrahamic Covenant involved Abraham and his family through Isaac. They were not the only two in the covenant, but the language is pretty clear here that Ishmael was overlooked.[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

Ishmael was not overlooked. He was circumcised. And it was not just family, but servants, too.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]Put aside the covenant presuppositions and read the text. It says that God continued the covenant through Isaac and his kids, not through Ishmael.[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

Put aside your baptist presuppostions and read the text. It says that the covenant was [b:6ff4bf36c3]established[/b:6ff4bf36c3] through and with Isaac. It does not mean that Ishmael and any other male in the house was not included.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]Not through any slave or other person "in the camp." The descendents of Abraham by Sarah - ISAAC and his descendents - were in the covenant.[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

This is simply not true from the Scriptures. There were many in covenant in Israel who were not the direct descendants of Abraham and Isaac. The stranger within the gates and his children were in the covenant once they were circumcised.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not the God of Abraham, Ishmael, all the Arab nations, Isaac, Jacob, and all Jews. Not all Israel is Israel, and the only descendents of Ishmael that are in covenant with God are those who are also in Christ.[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

Would you stop and think for a moment. You just included possible descendants of of Ishmael in the covenant if God chose them. Why would Ishmael not be chosen as well? We do not know that he was, but we do not know that he wasn't either. The Bible does not say he was not chosen. It says that the covenant was not established with him, the firstborn of Abraham.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]Read the text about the "everlasting covenant."

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]15Then God said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. 16And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her." 17Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, "Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?" 18And Abraham said to God, "Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!" [b:6ff4bf36c3]19Then God said: "No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him[/b:6ff4bf36c3]. 20And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. [b:6ff4bf36c3]21But My covenant I will establish with Isaac[/b:6ff4bf36c3], whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year." [/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

He talks about the covenant with Isaac and his descendents then when Abraham wants Ishmael to live before God - ie. be the one in the everlasting covenant, the child of promise (you do realise that Abraham was asking God for Ishmael to be the child of promise) - God says , "NO." He says He will remember and bless Ishmael, "BUT" the covenant will be with Isaac and his children.[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

This is where you misunderstand what covenant means. The federal head is asking for a federal heir. He does not yet have Isaac, and he is old. Why would he not take a son of his body and wish that the covenant would be established on his "bird in the hand." God is saying "no" to Abraham, not to Ishmael. God did not want the line coming through a slave girl. He wanted the line to come through Sarah.

Phillip, this does not mean that we need to change terms to Ishmael. No one is saying that the covenant was established through him. We're saying he was in the covenant. Not the firstborn, or heir. He was simply in it by virtue of his being circumcised.

I know why you're railing against this because it clearly shows covenant inclusion with a sign. Sorry, but you can't get around that. Many were included in the external relationship, but were not in the everlasting covenant. JUST LIKE TODAY.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]How more plain can the text be.[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

I don't know, you tell us. What is the difference between being in the covenant and having the covenant be established in you. Was it established in Judah? No, but he was in it. What about Simeon? No, but he was in it. The language is clear.

[quote:6ff4bf36c3]Summary:
1. God says He is going to give Abraham a child that will be part of an everlsting covenant.

2. Abraham says, we can't have a new kid.....Sarai and I are too old...we already have Ishmael.

3. so he asked God to make Ishmael the child of the covenant.

4. God replied "NO", I will bless Ishmael, "BUT" he is not in the everlasting covenant. Isaac and his descendents are in the everlasting covenant.[/quote:6ff4bf36c3]

This does damage to the Scriptures. It does not say Ishmael was not in the covenant. This is eisogesis. It does not say what you want it to say.

In Christ,

KC
 

robot

Puritan Board Freshman
[quote:aefa72019c][i:aefa72019c]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:aefa72019c]
[quote:aefa72019c][i:aefa72019c]Originally posted by robot[/i:aefa72019c]
God had his own "covenant" with Ishmael: his descendents would be kings. Ishmael feared the Lord, and followed him for the rest of his life. It seems like he was on good terms with Isaac (burial of father together), and that the Lord loved him. [/quote:aefa72019c]
Please explain your understanding of this "covenant" with Ishmael. Do you think it was part of the covenant of grace? What in your mind indicates that God made a covenant? What were Ishmael's obligations in this covenant? And what was promised to him in it? What was promised to his children in it? Some things to consider. [/quote:aefa72019c]

I guess "covenant" isn't the right word... sorry. God did make a promise to Ishmael, though.
 
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