"VR Church" and the Embodied Nature of Humanity

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

Hi All,
I have a Facebook friend who runs a "VR Church". I asked him if he thought there was anything about the nature of humans as embodied creatures that limits what can be done in VR in terms of church community, worship, and the sacraments. He created this podcast in response

If you have time to watch that would be great, but the TLDW is; "No, there are no limitations because true worship is spiritual, not physical. We need to use all the tools at our disposal to spread the gospel, and nothing essential is lost by worshipping or taking the sacraments in VR."

I have many thoughts on why I disagree with what is said here, but if anyone has time I'd be curious to hear how you would respond as well.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

Hi All,
I have a Facebook friend who runs a "VR Church". I asked him if he thought there was anything about the nature of humans as embodied creatures that limits what can be done in VR in terms of church community, worship, and the sacraments. He created this podcast in response

If you have time to watch that would be great, but the TLDW is; "No, there are no limitations because true worship is spiritual, not physical. We need to use all the tools at our disposal to spread the gospel, and nothing essential is lost by worshipping or taking the sacraments in VR."

I have many thoughts on why I disagree with what is said here, but if anyone has time I'd be curious to hear how you would respond as well.

I'm willing to watch this at some point, but my very first question would be who sent him? Is this yet another self-willed, self-called, self-ordained man on a mission? Other questions I have would include:

How was this church constituted?

Who is he accountable to?

Do they have a plurality of elders?

What's their take on RPW?

Do they ever meet in person?

How would they administer sacraments/ordinances?

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

I'm willing to watch this at some point, but my very first question would be who sent him? Is this yet another self-willed, self-called, self-ordained man on a mission? Other questions I have would include:

How was this church constituted?

Who is he accountable to?

Do they have a plurality of elders?

What's their take on RPW?

Do they ever meet in person?

How would they administer sacraments/ordinances?

I believe he is on staff as a pastor at a broadly evangelical church (which does meet in person) and his ministry in VR is an extension of that. They are not reformed and I'm sure they don't hold to the RPW. Based on the conversation here they have a very low, memorialist view of the sacraments.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

I believe he is on staff as a pastor at a broadly evangelical church (which does meet in person) and his ministry in VR is an extension of that. They are not reformed and I'm sure they don't hold to the RPW. Based on the conversation here they have a very low, memorialist view of the sacraments.

His ministry being an extension of that church is interesting. I'd dabbled in trying to reach the lost in video games, Discord servers, Internet forums, etc., in years past. So I am deeply sympathetic to any heartfelt, Christ-honoring desire to reach the lost that accords with Holy Scripture. Going out in the highways and hedges and compelling people to come in who would never ordinarily darken the door of a church is a good thing. I think that not enough is done online in this way. Calling it a church rather than an outreach ministry is probably where I'd take issue, doctrinal differences aside. I'll give it a listen.

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

His ministry being an extension of that church is interesting. I'd dabbled in trying to reach the lost in video games, Discord servers, Internet forums, etc., in years past. So I am deeply sympathetic to any heartfelt, Christ-honoring desire to reach the lost that accords with Holy Scripture. Going out in the highways and hedges and compelling people to come in who would never ordinarily darken the door of a church is a good thing. I think that not enough is done online in this way. Calling it a church rather than an outreach ministry is probably where I'd take issue, doctrinal differences aside. I'll give it a listen.

I do appreciate the fact that the online world may be a ripe field for outreach! Worth noting is that in this case it is also treated the same as a church "campus"-- they have "worship services" and administer "baptism" and "communion" in VR.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

they have "worship services" and administer "baptism" and "communion" in VR.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's at least two red flags, possibly three.

EDIT: Okay, I listened to this and took some notes. The sacraments/ordinances being done virtually is still unclear to me. It is hinted at that they're eating real, actual bread as individuals? There was no clarification on how a virtual baptism would even work.

Notes are below:

'MetaChurch: How to Use Digital Ministry to Reach People and Make Disciples' by Dave Adamson was written on this topic.

'Do you see anything unique about the nature of humans as embodied creatures that limits what can or can't be replicated in VR as far as church community, worship and the sacraments go? ' is the question that is being discussed in the podcast.

@2:40 minute mark, host says 'he has yet to see anything which says *we can't* do in VR what we can do physically'.

@3:00-3:30 minute mark, they've got a fundamentally different starting point. This person's appeal is to their 'gut reaction' or 'go to reaction'.

@4:00-7:00 minute mark, the Centurion's servant being healed from afar and Jesus' marveling at their immense faith is instructive for us. Samaritan woman's interaction with the Lord is also used in defense of a non-local forms of worship. Very interesting, but totally uncompelling argumentation to me.

@8:00-8:30 minute mark, the host states that the church is not a meeting. I'm sympathetic to the idea that the church isn't a building, but an 'ekklesia' is certainly an assembly. I don't know how much I see value in trying to distinguish an assembly from a meeting.

@9:55-12:00 minute mark, the question about communion in VR is posed. Is the real point of the sacraments frustrated in any way by it being in VR? They talk about the right to abstain and reasons to abstain beginning around the 11:45 minute mark. They concede if you can't do it in faith it's sin.

@14:00 minute mark, the belief that Paul would've used anything he could to further the Gospel is discussed, including VR if the Apostle were alive today. At the 14:45 minute mark, he asks 'how could it not be okay?' So they're, again, not starting from RPW.

@15:00-16:00 minute mark, discussion about Jesus leaving 'His reality' and entering in to 'our reality' in taking on flesh on Earth. They try to extend that by talking about Christians entering into VR.

@16:00-18:00 minute mark, appeals to accommodate and adapt based on the culture are being made. They cite having a quicker path to getting into the world than ever before because it can be done virtually. Around the 17:30 minute mark they are trying to disciple and move people from VR to the real, in-person church.

@18:00-19:30 minute mark, Goose wants to be fair to the question and so he considers the view that there are limitations to what you can do in VR. He concedes that an in-person hug and ministry of presence is most easily done physically. He agrees it's inferior in VR and that it can't really be replicated without being in the same place.

@21:00-24:00 minute mark, they don't think VR will ever replace the in-person church but that for some of those who grow up not knowing anything else, it may be adequate. Goose likens it to physical vs. digital books and how digital books aren't a replacement for something you can actually put your hands on. Young people still love physical books, etc. He doesn't see physical hugs ever being replaced.

@24:00-26:00 minute mark, they talk about how people can't live in VR and you're always going to have a physical church. Cornerstone does 'family reunions' where they meet in-person after they've been meeting virtually for some time.

 

[Jack K]

If the Christian hope and Christian worship are merely spiritual, so that you are anticipating a virtual heaven and are happy about that life to come, then a virtual worship service in this life should be fine for you.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

My take on this, after listening through it, is as follows:

I spent the better part of a decade maintaining lists of games and their in-game maximum character limits for chat messages in order to keep tailor made lists of scriptures to share with folks in-game. I'd run a MMO focused group called Fishers of Men that would try to reach folks with the gospel in-game. I had even gone so far as to setup virtual audio cables in order to stream evangelistic sermons through in-game VoIP games that leverage voice activation. Our outreach efforts would extend to Discord Servers and Internet Forums also. There is no question that these methods were unorthodox, and in some instances, disorderly. But I walked in light of the light that I had at the time.

So it should go without saying that I am sympathetic toward those who have a desire to reach the lost virtually. I've since come to understand that an outreach ministry along these lines ought to be under the authority of a (real, physical) local church and a plurality of elders. However, I think holding formal worship services (depending on the particulars) and performing the sacraments/ordinances (irrespective of the particulars) are bridges too far. What does a virtual baptism even look like? It's never outlined. There's only a brief mention of what the Lord's Supper looks like if done virtually. Concessions are made for those who can't do something in faith or think it's sacrilege ought to abstain. But what about abstaining from all appearance of evil and not setting a stumbling block before others? Paul was willing to leave food off of his plate before causing a brother to stumble. Is that spirit present in this podcast?

It is good to have zeal, but it must be according to knowledge. The regulative principle of worship should regulate such an outreach ministry.

 

[Phil D.]

Worth noting is that in this case it is also treated the same as a church "campus"-- they have "worship services" and administer "baptism" and "communion" in VR.

For clarity, are you in favor of this or no?

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

For clarity, are you in favor of this or no?

Definitely not. I have many major theological problems with it. I'm just curious to hear how others here would articulate a response to their argument.

 

[John The Baptist]

Gnosticism

 

[Edward]

I'm an old boomer, so you young folks will have to fill me in. Are the VR goggles waterproof for our baptist friends?

or taking the sacraments in VR

 

[VictorBravo]

I'm an old boomer, so you young folks will have to fill me in. Are the VR goggles waterproof for our baptist friends?

They stand up fine to virtual water.

 

[MyCrows]

If the Christian hope and Christian worship are merely spiritual, so that you are anticipating a virtual heaven and are happy about that life to come, then a virtual worship service in this life should be fine for you.

Wasn't this the plot of "The Matrix"?

How would church discipline be invoked? An IP ban? What if they used a proxy?

Outreach is one thing, but substituting a virtual church for the "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves" is a presumptuous error, no matter what pragmatism we put forward.

 

[davejonescue]

I think we have to expand out thinking just a little on the implications of a VR "church." I am Facebook friends with Pastor Jason Poling of Cornerstone, Yuba, and he is one of the initial "planters" of churches in the Meta. I have had a couple discussions with him on the topic. His ideology regarding virtual sacraments are that even within the physical realm they are symbolic and hold no actual trans-substance within themselves. And that baptism is a symbolic public declaration of faith; instead of the actual water cleansing the person in any regard. His ultimate goal is to get each attendant into local churches in their area. But, for many of these users they are disabled, or extremely introvert. Considering the global reach of VR, meaning, you can have a user from China, Latin America, Canada, and the Middle East; all in a single gathering; for many of the individuals; a Bible believing Protestant church may not even exist in their area, let alone their province or state/nation. I have yet to really hear of any Reformed congregations taking the helm in this regard, and or pretty much scoffing at it, so most of the churches are Arminian, or egalitarian, but, the Meta is expanding; and, the only real thing that is stopping it from becoming popular is its initial infancy in which the graphics are more like Minecraft rather than COD. But this will change, and these churches will already be established. Being inside of one of these services does mimic pretty good an actual attendance of church: I mean you are in a room, you are gathering with other saints. The ethics of digital or virtual sacraments, and things like discipline and accountability are still being worked out. This is a new phenomena. But as an evangelistic tool we should all see the potential. This is potentially a way to get the Gospel into areas otherwise unreachable for most of us who cant pick up and be missionaries in other nations. I wouldnt get so caught up in the initial shock of it being called "church" as it may be the closest resemblance to a church for some of these people available.

 

[Deleted member 13126]

I think we have to expand out thinking just a little on the implications of a VR "church." I am Facebook friends with Pastor Jason Poling of Cornerstone, Yuba, and he is one of the initial "planters" of churches in the Meta. I have had a couple discussions with him on the topic. His ideology regarding virtual sacraments are that even within the physical realm they are symbolic and hold no actual trans-substance within themselves. And that baptism is a symbolic public declaration of faith; instead of the actual water cleansing the person in any regard. His ultimate goal is to get each attendant into local churches in their area. But, for many of these users they are disabled, or extremely introvert. Considering the global reach of VR, meaning, you can have a user from China, Latin America, Canada, and the Middle East; all in a single gathering; for many of the individuals; a Bible believing Protestant church may not even exist in their area, let alone their province or state/nation. I have yet to really hear of any Reformed congregations taking the helm in this regard, and or pretty much scoffing at it, so most of the churches are Arminian, or egalitarian, but, the Meta is expanding; and, the only real thing that is stopping it from becoming popular is its initial infancy in which the graphics are more like Minecraft rather than COD. But this will change, and these churches will already be established. Being inside of one of these services does mimic pretty good an actual attendance of church: I mean you are in a room, you are gathering with other saints. The ethics of digital or virtual sacraments, and things like discipline and accountability are still being worked out. This is a new phenomena. But as an evangelistic tool we should all see the potential. This is potentially a way to get the Gospel into areas otherwise unreachable for most of us who cant pick up and be missionaries in other nations. I wouldnt get so caught up in the initial shock of it being called "church" as it may be the closest resemblance to a church for some of these people available.

Without getting into the particular details I already covered earlier in this thread, I will say again that I applaud their desire to reach the lost in places where no one else is going. As someone who has had a mouse and a keyboard in front of me nearly every day for at least eight hours a day for at least the past 24 years, I'm deeply sympathetic to trying to reach folks online. When I was content to hide out from the world, here is where you'd find me. So I do think that Reformed churches ought to work through some of these ideas themselves, lest these Arminian and/or egalitarian ministries secure an overwhelming first mover's advantage. Anyone who has spent any amount of time on some of the Reformed Discord servers out there ought to know that it's a circus. That entire community is in desperate need of reformation, to include implementing the regulative principle of worship and being anchored to real, live, physical churches, for starters.

 

[Blood-Bought Pilgrim]

I think we have to expand out thinking just a little on the implications of a VR "church." I am Facebook friends with Pastor Jason Poling of Cornerstone, Yuba, and he is one of the initial "planters" of churches in the Meta. I have had a couple discussions with him on the topic. His ideology regarding virtual sacraments are that even within the physical realm they are symbolic and hold no actual trans-substance within themselves. And that baptism is a symbolic public declaration of faith; instead of the actual water cleansing the person in any regard. His ultimate goal is to get each attendant into local churches in their area. But, for many of these users they are disabled, or extremely introvert. Considering the global reach of VR, meaning, you can have a user from China, Latin America, Canada, and the Middle East; all in a single gathering; for many of the individuals; a Bible believing Protestant church may not even exist in their area, let alone their province or state/nation. I have yet to really hear of any Reformed congregations taking the helm in this regard, and or pretty much scoffing at it, so most of the churches are Arminian, or egalitarian, but, the Meta is expanding; and, the only real thing that is stopping it from becoming popular is its initial infancy in which the graphics are more like Minecraft rather than COD. But this will change, and these churches will already be established. Being inside of one of these services does mimic pretty good an actual attendance of church: I mean you are in a room, you are gathering with other saints. The ethics of digital or virtual sacraments, and things like discipline and accountability are still being worked out. This is a new phenomena. But as an evangelistic tool we should all see the potential. This is potentially a way to get the Gospel into areas otherwise unreachable for most of us who cant pick up and be missionaries in other nations. I wouldnt get so caught up in the initial shock of it being called "church" as it may be the closest resemblance to a church for some of these people available.

I certainly sympathize with your point that this will likely be a big area of outreach in the future, and we should certainly be willing to explore that. However I do think treating a virtual gathering as if it were equivalent to a physical gathering of the saints is also a big mistake, and does deny something fundamental about our embodied nature and the physical nature of the local church. Certainly churches can conduct outreach, bible studies, etc. in VR, but I think we can and must also uphold a strong belief in the importance of physically gathering with a local congregation whenever and wherever possible.

This has broader implications for church life and human life in general as well-- In addition to particular beliefs about the nature of the church, I have a conviction that God has designed us for physical community. Virtual tools can be a nice supplement for that, but I think we run a real risk of losing any sense of thick, committed, meaningful community if things start to center primarily on a virtual world. Not to mention the way it can lead to mass polarization as people self-select more and more for whatever group they like best without having to deal with people who bother them.