very interesting premillennial article by Sam Storms

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929, Apr 15, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    :eureka: THIS IS INTERESTING

    What you must believe to be Pre-millenial following the return of Christ:

    These are excerpts from

    “Problems with Premillennialism” by Sam Storms


    If you are a Premillennialist, whether Dispensational or not, there are several things with which you must reckon:

    1) You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming.

    2) You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the fall of man.

    3) You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

    4) You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

    5) You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

    6) You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.


    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...u-must-believe-if-you-are-a-premillennialist/
     
  2. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    They are aware of that and have never tried to hide it.
    They would probably say that Jesus' glorified presence on earth puts a stop to the curse.
    That seems a logical inference. I'm not sure how it works as a reductio.
    Some believe that, some don't.
    That's standard premillennial teaching.

    I remember reading Storms' article when it came out. He tried to make it sound like shocking exposes, when premils have been forthright about this all along.
     
  3. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    1) You must necessarily believe that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ’s second coming.

    BayouHuguenot response: "They are aware of that and have never tried to hide it."

    Sam Storms response:
    The reason for this is that all Premillennialists must account for the rebellious and unbelieving nations in Revelation 20:7-10 who launch an assault against Christ and his people at the end of the millennial age. Where did these people come from? They must be the unbelieving progeny born to those believers who entered the millennial age in physical, unglorified bodies. Not only they, but also the believing progeny born to those believers will be subject to physical death (notwithstanding the alleged prolonged life spans experienced by those who live during the millennial reign of Christ).

    2) You must necessarily believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ’s second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the fall of man.

    BayouHuguenot response: "They would probably say that Jesus' glorified presence on earth puts a stop to the curse."

    Sam Storms response:
    The reason for this is that all Premillennialists must concede that unbelievers will continue to populate and infect the earth during the millennial reign of Christ. Notwithstanding the presence of Christ himself, as Premillennialists argue, the earth will continue to be ravaged by war and sin and death, even if only at the millennium’s end (Revelation 20:7-10). As a Premillennialist, you must necessarily believe that the redemption of the natural creation and its being set free from bondage to corruption does not occur, at least in its consummate expression, until 1,000 years subsequent to Christ’s return.

    3) You must necessarily believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

    BayouHuguenot response: "That seems a logical inference. I'm not sure how it works as a reductio."

    Sam Storms offerred no further comment to #3

    4)
    You must necessarily believe that unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years subsequent to his return.

    BayouHuguenot response: "Some believe that, some don't."

    Sam Storms response:
    The reason for this is that, according to Premillennialism, countless millions of people will be born during the course of the millennial reign of Christ. Are Premillennialists asking us to believe that upon their attaining to an age when they are capable of understanding and responding to the revelation of God and the personal, physical presence of Christ Jesus himself, that none of them will be given the opportunity to respond in faith to the claims of the gospel?

    5) You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

    BayouHuguenot response: "That's standard premillennial teaching."

    Sam Storms offered no further comment to #5

    6)
    You must necessarily believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years subsequent to the return of Christ.

    BayouHuguenot & Sam Storms did not add further comment to #6

    **********************

    BayouHuguenot clsosng remarks: "I remember reading Storms' article when it came out. He tried to make it sound like shocking exposes, when premils have been forthright about this all along."


    Sam Storms remarks:


    In my study of the second coming of Christ I discovered that, contrary to what Premillennialism requires us to believe (see above),
    1) death is defeated and swallowed up in victory at the Parousia,
    2) the natural creation is set free from its bondage to corruption at the Parousia,
    3) the New Heavens and the New Earth are introduced immediately
    following the Parousia,
    4) all opportunity to receive Christ as savior terminates at the Parousia,
    5) and both the final resurrection and eternal judgment of unbelievers will occur at the time of the Parousia.

    Simply put, the NT portrayals of the second coming of Christ forced me to conclude that a millennial age, subsequent to Christ’s return, of the sort proposed by Premillennialism was impossible.

    The second factor that turned me from Premillennialism to Amillennialism was a study of Revelation 20, the text cited by all Premillennialists in support of their theory. Contrary to what I had been taught and long believed, I came to see Revelation 20 as a strong and immovable support for the Amillennial perspective.

    I will examine Revelation 20 in detail in a subsequent chapter. But in this chapter I want to look closely at those texts in the NT that, in my opinion, render impossible a post-Parousia millennial kingdom on earth.

    THE REST OF SAM STORM's ARTICLE CAN BE FOUND HERE:
    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/...u-must-believe-if-you-are-a-premillennialist/

    ****************************

    Jacob - how do you feel about John MacArthur's 1,000 years of bloody animal sacrifices that he claims must happen because of his "literal" Ezekiel interpretation, and further claims they are just "Memorials" to Christ even though Ezekiel literally states these are atoning sin offerings? Have you read Dr. Kim Riddlebarger's writings about this? I think this Millennial theology is vile and disgusting because these bloody sin atoning sacrifices are a re-crucifying of Christ, not a memorial to Christ.
     
  4. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    P.S. I meant to preface the previous post to you with this:

    Dear Jacob - Sam Storm's writings about Premillennialism are also directed to those who are studying Eschatology and uncertain about what is true.

    Thousands have either not become premil or left premil because of Sam Storms.

    This article and some others writings of his combined with works by Dr. Kim Riddlebarger is what helped me to become Amill.

    I and many others thank God for this article because of everything we learned.

    So I don't understand your attitude to this article.
     
  5. kainos01

    kainos01 Puritan Board Senior

    Just curious: what's your source for this?
     
  6. TheInquirer

    TheInquirer Puritan Board Freshman

    I liked Storms' book "Kingdom Come." His tone can be a bit polemical at times so I am not sure how a dispensationalist would take to it but for someone questioning dispensationalism and wondering about amillenialism, I think it is a solid resource - it helped me several years ago.
     
  7. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Thank you. Sam Storms made things that were very hard previously for me to formulate in my mind to become so manageable.

    And as I said I am equally as indebted to Dr. Kim Riddlebarger. I am especially grateful how he responded to John MacArthur's arrogance in 2007 (i think) when John Mac Arthur announced “Why Every Self-Respecting Calvinist is Premillennial” And by the way, how vile that his influential, charismatic teachings of a 1,000 year reign of Christ entails non-stop Animal Blood Sacrifices because he says the literal interpretation of Ezekiel says so. And then he claims they are "memorials" of thanksgiving to Jesus. But Ezekiel clearly states these animal blood sacrifices are atoning sin offerings. This is abominable theology.
     
  8. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    It's an educated under-estimate based upon experiences in many Facebook reformed groups and reading reactions, book reviews, the countless good reformed websites/blogs/podcasts/radio programs/ ministries who have promoted his writings combined with the responses to them. Though I think most who gravitate to him and the way he so clearly destroys Premill, also gravitate to Dr. Kim Riddlebarger, and surely other's works on Amill too. So combined they have at least taught many thousands the errors of Premill, and have undoubtedly helped many thousands more to become Amill.
     
  9. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    My attitude, such as it is, is that anyone who's read a systematic theology text knows premillennialism has always taught this, even back to Irenaeus and Justin Martyr.
     
  10. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I'm largely indifferent to what Macarthur teaches.
    Yes. And I've listened to about 50 of his lectures.
     
  11. Johnathan Lee Allen

    Johnathan Lee Allen Puritan Board Freshman

    Is the content and context of objections more about Dispensational premillennialism and not historic premillennialism? I’m still looking into it, but aren’t there pretty sharp differences between the two?
     
  12. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Sort of. Historic premils (and pre-wrath premils) wouldn't hold to the anminal sacrifices nor probably to the fabled 3rd Temple.

    And with guys like me, the issue is more about the timing of the binding of Satan than speculation about the millennium.
     
  13. Ben Zartman

    Ben Zartman Puritan Board Freshman

    Given the scarcity of premils of any sort on this forum, what is your purpose in coming at this so hard? It's like you're trying to put out an unlit match with a fire hose.
     
  14. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    If one holds to more of a literal view on prophecy scriptures would be the premil position established from the scriptures.
     
  15. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Most of us are underwhelmed by Storms' article. Dispensationalism has been very clear on the implications of their belief system for over a century. Amils and postmils have known this for at least decades. Storms' article is like the guy who runs into the GM plant today and warns everybody that Henry Ford has built the Model-T.

    And premils aren't unaware of Storms' challenge. They have answered it.
    https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2...-storms-immovable-support-for-amillennialism/
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page