Total Depravity

[toddpedlar]

SO then we are not free. I feel this is a war on semantics. If man's will is contrained by his nature then it is not free will. Correct? I understand that a prisoner is contrained by outward. I get that part. I understand Adam had free will. But it seems i keep hearing "yes you have free will but it is contrained free will" Well that is not free will then. My brain is about to explode LOL!!

In the sense of complete autonomy, i.e. that your will is governed by NOTHING, then that is correct. We do not have free will. But then neither does God.

So is it safe to say that when we are Born Again we gain back our Free Will?

Absolutely not. We do not change one whit in regard to how free our will is. What changes in regeneration is our nature, and thereby what changes is that which governs our will. We are able to choose good, whereas previously we could do nothing but sin.

So if I was trying to explain to somoene who is arminian what Free Will is and without trying to lose them in terminologies would I be safe to say to them "we do not have free will because our will is subject to our sinful nature and we can only do what our nature enables us to do"?

You also should emphasize, I would think, that we are completely free to do whatever we actually want to do, and are never compelled to make decisions and do things that we don't actually want. Our choices are real.

At the same time as WE are constrained by our nature, so too is God. this is also very important to emphasize. God is a perfectly pure spirit, perfectly holy and righteous. He CANNOT choose contrary to His nature. He always chooses that which is in accord with His attributes. His will is no more free than ours. He is constrained by His nature.

This second point blows Arminians away all the time, and gives them at least some pause to consider how tightly they demand autonomous free will.

 

[Webservant]

So What is the Reformed View for fallen man. I am getting confused in certain things I read. I hear some say fallen man does not have free will. His will is enslaved to his sinful nature therefore any action is influenced by sin therefore his will is not "free will" but he is free to make choices according to the ability his nature enables him.

Others say man is free and able to make free will choices and accountable to God.

So is his will free or is it not?

Then you are out of accord with the Westminster Standards.

Westminster Larger Catechism

Question 21: Did man continue in that estate wherein God at first created him?

Answer: Our first parents being left to the freedom of their own will, through the temptation of Satan, transgressed the commandment of God in eating the forbidden fruit; and thereby fell from the estate of innocency wherein they were created.

His freedom of will is a limited freedom, in that he's "free" to act as he so chooses; however, the truth is he will only choose that which is evil, because he is, by nature, totally depraved. On the other hand, Adam & Eve were not sinful by nature. They were created upright, and inclined toward godliness. So there's a difference between Original Adam & Eve and all other people born to woman of man.

Hey Josh - I had this conversation with my pastor, and I made the remark that Adam and Eve were "perfectly able to obey" and he told me that I was incorrect, that if they were perfectly able to withstand and obey, they would have. If they were created good, my understanding is that God meant GOOD - not kinda good, not ok - but good. If they were anything but perfect, God would not have called them good... right? What am I missing?

 

[Webservant]

Hey Josh - I had this conversation with my pastor, and I made the remark that Adam and Eve were "perfectly able to obey" and he told me that I was incorrect, that if they were perfectly able to withstand and obey, they would have. If they were created good, my understanding is that God meant GOOD - not kinda good, not ok - but good. If they were anything but perfect, God would not have called them good... right? What am I missing?

Well, I certainly don't want to get into a conversation about your pastor, but I believe (obviously) that Adam and Eve were created flawless and inclined toward good. Perfect does not equal, however, immutable (i.e. unable to change). I think that's implied by the Creator/Creature distinction. In fact, it was this very lie (i.e. Satan's lie to Eve was, "God knows you'll be just like Him") of immutability that brought the fall in the first place.

LOL the last time I checked he still knew more than me... so he may have thought I was referring to immutability.

 

[JennyG]

If you ask me, the real problem is with the human logical faculty.
It is inadequate to this purpose.
No wonder you, Steve, think your brain is going to explode!
humanly speaking , I really doubt if the sum can be made to balance.

The best answer is given in the book of Job chapter 38-41.
Actually, when someone first told me that, I was very disappointed to find only a long disquisition on the wonders of Creation. What sort of answer is that!!!!
But the more you consider and meditate on it in your heart, the more you will find (if my experience is anything to go by) that it really does give the only answer to this and all other such conundrums of life and death.