panta dokimazete
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
good post, shack - my "initiation" experience was Vineyard...
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This is a key point. In order to dodge it the Charismatics have to redefine "prophecy." It's no longer absolutely authoritative information from God that gives the law and gospel and in general explains redemptive history. Now the "encouragement" (1 Cor 14) from prophecy is taken to be characterized by personal "words" from God to specific individuals instead of the types of things I just mentioned for the whole Church. Some Charismatics also believe that it is predictive with regard to an individual or group. It boils down to "words" like "God wants you to know that you are a beautiful flower full of personality and warmth" or "You should 'serve' the Church in X fashion/go to India/etc."
Thanks for the quick replies, I will look at them. I have one more question: Like I said I am in a debate with a couple people, and I was confronted with a statement and question that I had hoped I wouldn't. Here is the question: "Dennis teaches that Tongues are not for the Church today. Paul teaches us forbid not to speak with Tongues. So, What do you suggest that believers in Christ do today Dennis?" ----------Here is the situation, I do not believe tongues is for the church today, but I do not want to accuse many Christians, that the tongues they speak in is phony! I am not sure how to answer this question. Do I tell them all the tongues they speak in is fake? When they believe it is genuine? ----I can remember back about 10 years ago, before I came to the reformed faith, I was told that I could speak in tongues if I desired, and also I should desire this. I did not speak in tongues, but I can remember kinda building myself up to it and waiting for it to happen. Suppose it did happen, I could see how one could be convinced it is real. Then what kind of answer would I accept in this situation? I am not sure. I do know I would probably be insulted that someone told me it was fake. Understand where I am coming from?----How do I speak the truth in love in this situation?
I can't answer whether tongues continue today or no. But the tactic I take in discussions with charismatics is not to put forward the unprovable premise that tongues have ceased with the coming of the canon. I ask instead "Are we managing the gift in the way Paul instructs us to manage it? and go on from there. This approach does a number of things: first it keeps the discussion on the ground of what Scripture teaches rather than on what charismatics will rightly recognize as not necessarily valid inferences from Scripture: second, if God blesses my words to edification of the hearer, it reduces non biblical glossolalia and unbiblical uses of tongues in his or her circle.
I think this is a very good point. Most Charismatics and Pentecostals are of the impression that gifts of the spirit means that anything goes in church. This is not the case and this is what Paul was writing about in Corinthians.
Anything the Spirit does should be decent and in order. In Acts 2 where a mighty wind came on them and they began to speak in tongues as the spirit gave them utterance, does not mean they were bouncing off the walls and completely losing control, which is what Pentecostals assume. It simply states that they spoke in other languages and it was languages the people around them knew, 3,000 people were saved as a result and God was glorified.
The "sheer pandemonium" is what usually turns most people off to the idea of the gifts being active today. Tongues is only one gift and if it is real not everyone would have it, just like everyone would not have the gift of teaching or preaching. Tongues, and the hysteria that follow, is very easy to fake or copy. Plus, it is fun to go to church and have a "holy ghost ho-down," it is not like the stuffy old dead churches. Dead meaning churches that do not practice said tongues activities.
I should also state that I have heard a lot of "tongues" and their interpretation in my time. Not one had any relevance to anything. It was always, "He ye my messenger (the Holy Ghost always uses good King James English) heed what he says, he speaks the truth." Things along these lines. It always backed up whatever the preacher had just spoke on.
Maybe I should not make this observation, but, it was always women that "had the gift." It was a good way to draw attention to themselves and make them important. After all, God was speaking through them and not you and using them in a mighty way.
Don:
I don't think it is a redefintion. It is more of commonality between OT and NT. Prophecy did not derive from man, but was used through man by God. It was man speaking God's Word. That's no different now in the NT. What has changed is that the canon is closed, that God is not revealing more. So it a difference of time: new words from God vs. words already revealed from God. But prophecy remains the same.
Is the gift of tongues active today amongst Christians, or did it die out after the early church and the Apostles?
In 1 Corinthians 14:22 Paul speaks about tongues are a sign to unbelievers. Does this mean today as well? Or does this have another meaning that Paul was teaching from Isaiah 28:11.
I am looking for answers to this subject, Myself I tend toward believing tongues went out after the Apostles, but I am not 100% sure. Any help and insight here would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I am presently in a debate over this at another board. If anyone cares to check it out, here is the address: It is in Apologetics: Vision and Prophecy. ChristianBoard.com :: Index
Again any help would be appreciated.