Thoughts on similarities between the premillennial and amillennial views

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Jerusalem Blade

Puritan Board Professor
I want to express these thoughts to the end of bringing our camps closer together, for we do have some strong agreements, particularly as regards the very end of the age. We usually clash with reference to the identity of Israel, and of the Church, and also concerning the thousand years, whether it be literal and earthly, or symbolic and heavenly yet impacting earth. The timing of the rapture another area of dispute.

But to skip those points of difference for a moment, let me get to where we are pretty close in understanding. I bring this up because the premil folks (and particularly the Dispensational) are very sharp in picking up that America is latter-day Babylon (I would say its headquarters), and that events do indicate major conflicts and judgments are in the wings. They also have sharp discernment re deviation from Biblical spirituality in these days—I think of Lighthouse Trails, for example—when many others seem to be pretty much asleep. So I want to let these folks know how much I love and value them.

About these days we’re in . . . something is clearly afoot, both across the land, and “in the air”. Regarding this “air”, I’m not talking about rumors and ideas of conspiracy theorists, etc—though they should not be laughed at, but seriously considered—but rather what’s called the zeitgeist or “spirit of the age”. There’s something in this air—the collective consciousness of our American society—that is becoming increasingly demonic fast, and few know the main source of the influx of this spirit. And the only place I see it accurately spoken of is among you Dispensationalists! The Reformed are mostly (though not entirely) out-to-lunch on this!

Of course I am talking about the pharmakeia connection, of which the Revelation of John speaks four times (Galatians once, and numerous times in the Greek OT), the primary one at Rev 18:23: judgment is said to come on Babylon, “for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.” In that one phrase is a horrible, world-shattering development! I have around ten chapters on aspects of this in the section “Babylon” of A Great and Terrible Love: A Visionary Journey from Woodstock’s Sorceries to God’s Paradise.

It took fifty years for the seething cauldron of humankind’s collective consciousness to be well-leavened with the satanic inpouring that started back in the fifties and sixties, like thick black smoke bellowing out of the abyss into the air and blotting out the sun (Rev 9:1-6). Half a century! I’ve written a lot about this also. I don’t know how long till we see whore Babylon “drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus” (Rev 17:6), but when we do her transformation will have been completed, and her vast destruction near. For us, that will mean we go down with her, and rise in spirit to be with our Saviour.

About the thousand years, it’s a special number in Scripture, and it means completeness to the nth degree, as in Psalm 50:10, where all the beasts of the forest are His, and “the cattle upon a thousand hills”—not only a thousand, but all the hills in the world. The thousand years are all the years of the church age, from Christ’s first coming till right before His second.

A literal thousand years in earthly Jerusalem makes three ages, this present time, the Jerusalem reign age, and then the eternal age, whereas Jesus—who spoke of two ages only—when talking of the one who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost, said this sin “shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world (age), neither in the world to come” (Mt 12:32). He said it again in Lk 18:29, 30; Lk 20:34, 35; and Mt 13:39, 40, 49. He repeatedly says there are only two ages—not three! The 1,000 year “age” of an earthly Jerusalem reign of Christ contradicts Scripture.

The two witnesses of Rev 11 aren’t two individual prophets working wonders, but symbols of the legally established testimony of the church (in the mouths of two or three witnesses a thing is established as true), symbolic just as the temple and measuring rod in the first and second verses are symbolic. The 1,260 days / 42 months / 3½ years or times are the period of tribulation for the church—along with the power of God’s word manifested—throughout the age, three and a half years well known to Israel for such affliction, as in the days of Elijah (Ja 5:17), or the ravages of Antiochus Epiphanes, or the ministry of our Saviour. This entire evil age (Gal 1:4) is the period of the two witnesses’ testimony. And their prophecy will be realized in fiery destruction at the judgment for those who seek to hurt them, with plagues and droughts and famines now, for the prayers of the afflicted saints unto God result in these judgments upon the wicked of the world continually.

In Rev 12:5 we understand that the woman “clothed with the sun . . . and upon her head a crown with twelve stars” was Israel who gave birth to Christ, who was then triumphantly caught up to heaven and away from the smitten, mortally wounded dragon in his wild death-throes. She (now transformed into the NT people of God) then fled into the wilderness 1,260 days, to be fed and nourished 3½ years and protected from the face of the serpent. In verse 17 this persecution continues, until in Rev 13:7 it was given to the beast to overcome her seed, the saints. This 3½-year period continues throughout the age, and, while the dragon warred on the saints all through it, only at the end is it given him to completely prevail, as Rev 20:3, 7-9 shows. (But this prevailing is only in appearance, for in truth we rise again in triumph, and glory, as written in Romans 8:36, 37.) With you folks, I think we are very near the end now. I don’t think WWIII is about to commence (perhaps reflecting the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] trumpet, where one third of the world’s people are killed) quite yet, as some conspiracy buffs are now trumpeting. What happens after the fiasco election may give some indication of where things may head, God sovereign over which wicked ruler is over us as our doom nears.

I think it a poor move, the idea to take up arms against the massive firepower of the government, and one that will backfire on the larger peaceful Christian community. I have spoken of this in the chapter, “Provoking The Beast—By Armed Resistance”, in the Armageddon section. Christians have spiritual weapons to wage this warfare.

In Rev 11 again, we have in verse 7 that picture of the final rising of the beast to war against the saints and overcome them. The same event from other angles is in Rev 13:7; 16:12-14, 16; 19:11-21; and 20:3, 7-9. The visions are not progressing chronologically, but recapitulating, though in the trumpets and vials / bowls the end is much in view, and intensifies. The rapture itself is seen in Rev 11:11, 12, the murderers of the saints seeing them made alive again and standing on the earth before they are raised, which terrifies them as at that moment they realize their testimony was true. And then the Lord from heaven says, Come up here!, and they go up to Him, and the last trumpet sounds.

All this to say that the symbolic understanding (I was Dispensational many years) is not vague liberal “spiritualizing” away of Biblical truths, but a better way of seeing what is actually happening. In Rev 9 the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] trumpet’s symbolic vision of the massive opening of the interdimensional gateway between the demonic and human realms beginning at Woodstock is true to life, and a clear picture. The same with the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] trumpet, and the bowls / vials as well.

About Israel: the booklet, A Poet Arises In Israel, here in the larger book, addresses the identity of that nation. The chapters, “SPIRITUAL IDENTITY THEFT: Stealing God’s Gift” and “Israel Has Not Been Replaced By The Church” go into this. Peter, after Pentecost, in quoting from Deut. 18:18, 19 as he spoke to the people in Jerusalem, rendered it, “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that Prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people” (Acts 3:22, 23), made a clear decree that cut off from the nation all who rejected Messiah. That decree stands to this day. Apostate Jewry is not God’s Israel. Only in Christ is a Jew re-grafted into the now international Israel of God.

What is the meaning then of the return in 1948? Perhaps it is to be a threshing floor of judgment at the end of days, the wheat from the chaff. At the end, when the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] trumpet sounds one third of the earth’s people shall be killed—could headquarter Babylon’s demise be part of that? And the State of Israel? Many yearn to utterly destroy both of these nations. This is when we see “Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth…” (Luke 21:26). When men see Israel nuked (if this is what will happen), it shall be clear the end is nigh. What was thought certain is now gone! And when the U.S. is destroyed there will be no mistaking it!

The Israel of God can never be destroyed, for resurrection changes everything. We die only to rise again. Imposter Israel goes to Gehenna when destroyed. How important to herald the Good News to that people before the great wars of the end!

Please, let it not be said that the amils are off in some effete spiritual realm of delusion! At least let it not be said of me!

How long will it be for things to start happening? On the one hand, the Lord said for us not to try to know the day or the hour, which would include month and year also. On the other hand, we can see the devil’s forces moving into place. Things have moved so quickly these past five years, who knows what two years down the road will bring? Though it could be decades. I have no hope in any of the political folks, for it is written, “Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time” (Rev 12:12). Whatever man or woman is not sealed with the Spirit of the living God will be subject to the strong delusion promoted by the wicked one, and filled with a foulness of spirit come from hell. Those unsealed will become enraged like their father the devil. All unregenerate will be unpredictable, and liable to extreme changes.

To the inhabitants of the earth the antichrist—the beast—will be a hero! He will be the leader of those who “take counsel together against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us” (Ps 2:2, 3). This foul one will tap into the zeitgeist, with all its hatred of the law of God and teachings of Christ, with its rage against the police and all authority, and will revile heaven and the Lord Jesus and the people of God as no one has ever done, with great bravery and boldness, appearing most winsome to the hell-bound perishing as satan fills the air and unprotected hearts with his madness. Many will love the beast for his ferocious stand against Christ and the saints, and his verbal reviling of them.

Then will the visions of the artists, such as made I Am Legend, and World War Z, come to be realized, not in these intuitive fantasies, but as the crazed hordes of Christ- and Christian-haters go “up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city” (Rev 20:9), killing and looting the world around, much as Haman thought to do to Mordecai’s people in ancient days. It is at this juncture that the Lord will appear in heaven with a shout to call His people up. Those remaining on the earth, already terrified, will yell “to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rev 6:16, 17). And it will be over. We will go through it. Prepare your hearts. Cultivate your intimate walk with Christ, and help your families and friends do the same.

An eschatology that won’t sit down and keep quiet has made itself known, upending things thought sure. It won’t speak with words, but with happenings worldwide, confirming what God has spoken—we seeing it with our very eyes.
 
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Very interesting post! Surprised you got no replies, so I guess I'll chime in.

Iain Murray's Book "The Puritan Hope" lays out the doctrinal position supporting a great final harvest of souls when Romans 11 and a massive conversion of Jews happens, which is like life from the dead for the church. They prayed constantly for the salvation of the Jews. So while I agree with you (and the book of Hebrews) 100% on who the true Israel is right now, I thinks events in the mideast may be part of seeing this fulfilled. Of course the nation of Israel could be nuked to glass and Romans 11 happen with the other Jews left in the world (approximately half If I recall correctly). I pray all the time for a final great harvest. I am less sure of the golden age on earth of the post mil vision, although Bahnsen is certainly someone worth considering. But you could have a great harvest of souls in the middle of an amil unloosing of Satan, so the main thing is praying for Romans 11 to happen.

Re that something in the air....mainly due to drugs? I don't know. It seems to be very related to sexual perversions and p0rn and lies and corruption and greed. The appeasing of Islam seems to be a powerful part of what is happening. I do agree that you can feel it, like a growing darkness and changing air pressure when a thunderstorm front is moving in. Creepy and scary and I pray for the next generation all the time. I don't know what substances in the food and water and air act like drugs on us, but I would not be surprised to find out that Montsanto is as bad as illicit drugs. And demonic unclean spirits- yes indeed.

I've spent a couple months reading bits and snips of Modern Times by Paul Johnson (1920s-1990s). The main takeaway for me is how evil and corrupt the world leadership is, and how fast nations change- days, weeks, months. Our American bubble of stability for decades is not the global norm. It could change so fast.

5 billion people rely on electricity for light, heat, food, fuel, water, sewage. It is easy to hack and easy to destroy. Add in ten thousands of nuclear bombs and no, the world is not the same as it has always been and predictions of doom and the end are not the same as they have been for centuries. Things are different than in all of history...unless they had nukes and electricity before Noah, but I digress. The fragility of the modern world is astonishing.

I'll have to read your chapter, but right now, if the govt abolishes the Constitution and bill of Rights, I believe it is our solemn duty to rise up with every militia and gun available and throw them out and take back the republic, even if we die fighting. I could be wrong.

re the antiChrist...I am one of those weird people who has some exceptions to the Confession but not about the Pope. I think he is emerging as "The" antiChrist if that is one man. Appeasing Islam, accepting gays, etc. We will see.

Anyway, enjoyed your post, and I do think you would be blessed to read The Puritan Hope.
 
Hi Lynnie,

I believe I read Puritan Hope—or read in it—many years ago. That passage is greatly in dispute; though I for one sure do hope a great awakening among Jewry will occur in the latter days nearing the end, and I do what I can to that end, namely the book to Jewry (I'll attach a pdf copy below for those interested).

I would say, as I labor to show in Babylon of AGATL, that the 60s psychedelics / sorceries simply opened an interdimensional gateway (which is their essential property, and primary use for millennia) between the demonic realm and the human—and all the varieties of depravity, violence, mental illness, and rebellion we see have issued forth from that "fountain" of spiritual influence over the last half century. It is a perfect match respecting that event and its effects and the symbols of the 5th trumpet in Rev 9. I'll attach a chapter on that below also. I think we're moving into 6th trumpet territory, and on the verge of the vials / bowls of Rev 16. Though whether it be years or decades to realize, I don't know. After all, it did take 50 years for the 5th trumpet to fully manifest.

Stuart Olyott in his, Dare to Stand Alone: Daniel Simply Explained, echoes my view on this looking at fulfilled prophecy in hindsight:

“We must realize that some of the Bible’s teachings relating to the very last days will not be understood until we are in those days. That is why it is both unwise and dangerous to draw up detailed timetables of future events. Some parts of the Word of God will not become obvious in their meaning until the days of which they speak have dawned.” (p 166)​

About fighting the government militarily—with arms—it would be catastrophic (suicidal), given the firepower, intelligence, and manpower they have. I wrote a chapter on that too, "Provoking The Beast—By Armed Resistance". We have our own marching orders, which are other than that.

Thanks for responding, Lynnie—I like the way you think and see!

View attachment A Poet Arises In Israel.pdf

View attachment New Insights in Amillennial Eschatology.pdf
 
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This 3½-year period continues throughout the age, and, while the dragon warred on the saints all through it, only at the end is it given him to completely prevail, as Rev 20:3, 7-9 shows.

Matthew 16:18, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
 
Thank you, Matthew, for bringing up this important truth and balance. On the one hand we are killed, to all appearances prevailed against. It is this visible appearance I refer to. Does death to the church members—even an entire church—mean it has been truly prevailed against? Paul says in Romans 8:36, 37,

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.​

We are not prevailed against by death. The Lord appeared to be defeated at the cross; but He rose again from the dead. To the world, to all appearances, He was prevailed against. Ourselves also, to the world, to all appearances, we are prevailed against, destroyed. In Revelation John writes of the witnessing church, symbolized by the two witnesses,

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.​

He speaks also of the beast throughout the age killing the saints, and especially the slaughter during the final tribulation,

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.​

So you are right to say of the church by the word of God, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". For we rise in triumph. I spoke in your quote of the appearance of our utter defeat. Thank you for bringing this balance to light—appearance versus reality. I will modify those sentences to reflect this clearly.
 
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It is this visible appearance I refer to.

Steve, Thankyou for clarifying.

I don't desire to burden you, but as you have time would you help me understand the details of your prophetic scheme? What is the relationship between Revelation chapters 19 and 20? Is one happening after the other, or are these parallel? Does the "battle" of 20:8 parallel the battle of 19:19, or is this a later battle in history? Does the devil "deceive" in parallel with the beast and false prophet, or is this a later deception? Likewise, is the devil's defeat parallel with the defeat of the beast and false prophet, or is this a later defeat?

Thankyou for your time.
 
Hi Lynnie,

I believe I read Puritan Hope—or read in it—many years ago. That passage is greatly in dispute; though I for one sure do hope a great awakening among Jewry will occur in the latter days nearing the end, and I do what I can to that end, namely the book to Jewry (I'll attach a pdf copy below for those interested).

I would say, as I labor to show in Babylon of AGATL, that the 60s psychedelics / sorceries simply opened an interdimensional gateway (which is their essential property, and primary use for millennia) between the demonic realm and the human—and all the varieties of depravity, violence, mental illness, and rebellion we see have issued forth from that "fountain" of spiritual influence over the last half century. It is a perfect match respecting that event and its effects and the symbols of the 5th trumpet in Rev 9. I'll attach a chapter on that below also. I think we're moving into 6th trumpet territory, and on the verge of the vials / bowls of Rev 16. Though whether it be years or decades to realize, I don't know. After all, it did take 50 years for the 5th trumpet to fully manifest.

Stuart Olyott in his, Dare to Stand Alone: Daniel Simply Explained, echoes my view on this looking at fulfilled prophecy in hindsight:

“We must realize that some of the Bible’s teachings relating to the very last days will not be understood until we are in those days. That is why it is both unwise and dangerous to draw up detailed timetables of future events. Some parts of the Word of God will not become obvious in their meaning until the days of which they speak have dawned.” (p 166)​

About fighting the government militarily—with arms—it would be catastrophic (suicidal), given the firepower, intelligence, and manpower they have. I wrote a chapter on that too, "Provoking The Beast—By Armed Resistance". We have our own marching orders, which are other than that.

Thanks for responding, Lynnie—I like the way you think and see!

View attachment 4637

View attachment 4638

Am I the only one who finds this post, and indeed this discussion, extremely worrying? "Interdimensional gateways"?! This thread should be deleted.
 
Does not worry me at all. We live in three dimensions, four if you include time, but spirit beings are invisible to us and do exist somehow outside of the measurable electromagnetic spectrum. We don't see them and they so far cannot be measured with radio or radar or X rays or Geiger counters or any other sort of equipment that measures every sort of 3D created mass. Yet we know that angels exist, whether fallen or good.

The term interdimensional I thought refers to the ability to detect and commune with these spirits outside of our human dimensions. The use of drugs and sorcery and witchcraft is a perfectly biblical subject. Such things are forbidden and scripture speaks to them.

I smoked pot before God saved me, and rarely hash, and in the growing trend to associate pot with alcohol as simply a relaxant and acceptable substance in moderation, I think by experience that JBlade is entirely correct about his analysis of marijuana as sorcery, and the church needs to discuss these matters, same as we discuss alcohol. My experience is not theological exegesis, but I welcome thoughtful biblical discussion that sheds light on the spiritual darkness that was drawing me deeper, until the mercy of God snatched me out.

My only point of disagreement with JB about these drugs is that he can be more merciful towards psychiatric prescriptions than me, and indeed among Christians the rise of anti depressants and anti anxiety and bi polar meds is endemic. There is a great deal of evidence linking some psychotropic drugs with violence and also deadening of the conscience.( google world net daily on this for many articles.) In my experience- strictly personal observation, not biblical exegesis- with people on such meds it can contribute to great spiritual darkness, but perhaps the darkness was there all along and I am no expert.

At any rate, heroine addiction is sweeping the nation, and demonic activity is rising up like a tidal wave, and I am happy to see it being discussed. If nothing else, it should drive us to fervent intercession for the lost, no matter what you think about pot or shrink drugs or end time eschatology.
 
Hello Alexander,

You may be excused your rush to judgment and attempt to censor a view you are unfamiliar with simply due to the fact you are a godly man, and so without knowledge of the deep things of Satan which were opened in the human realm during the calamitous 1960s and 70s when the countercultures of both our lands (U.S. and U.K.) availed themselves of a class of long-forbidden, potent drugs. I refer to the sorcerous potions.

About the term “interdimensional gateway” you recoiled at (as though I were talking sci fi or fantasy!), it refers to that sphere, region, or dimension where devils (demons) are, in contradistinction to the human sphere or dimension. The two are meant to be apart; the reason witches and sorcerers are condemned in Scripture is that they seek to open the barrier between the two by means of sorcery or witchcraft. You may not be aware of these things, but we have knowledge of them primarily through the Bible. “Interdimensional gateway” is but a modern term for an old practice. Please, in the words of our recent Nobel Laureate, “don’t criticize what you can’t understand.”*

As a retired pastor, and current evangelist with a special eye to one of my kin-peoples, I seek to bring the “everlasting gospel” to the countercultures of our lands—here known as the Woodstock generation with its children and grandchildren—in language and insight they are well cognizant of. I know what they know and see, and would speak to them. As their poet, I tell them of the glorious Dayspring from on high whose grace fathoms the depths of the opened abyss they languish in.

* Bob Dylan, “The Times They Are A-changin’”

__________


Hello Matthew,

According to the eclectic or modified idealist amillennial view, verses 1-6 record the heavenly chorus’ rejoicing and praise of God’s power at the destruction of mighty Babylon; 7-10 the announcement of the soon-to-come marriage supper of the Lamb and John’s interaction with the messenger; and 11-21 shows “the battle” of the great day of God Almighty (cameos of this battle shown many times in Scripture), also known as Armageddon. Yes, the battle seen in 19:19 is identical with the one shown in 20:8.

In Rev 16:12-14, 16 we see this same battle again, and are told in v 13 that the dragon, beast, and false prophet are working together to deceive the kings of the earth and the whole world to gather them to that final battle, in accord with God’s plan.

In Rev 19:20 we see the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire at the end of this battle, and, in Rev 20:8-10—the very same battle seen from a different “camera angle” as it were—we again see the destruction of the armies opposing the King of Heaven, and the devil cast into the lake of fire. So—compiling these two visions of the final battle—we understand that the deceptions of Satan, beast, and false prophet are working in tandem, and also are, at the denouement of the same battle, together cast into the lake of fire.

A picture is seen here of the parallelism operating through much of the Book of Revelation; shown in other aspects where tribulation and judgment occur throughout the church age—a dynamic recapitulation of God’s dealings with man in warnings, calls to repentance, and judgment; and man’s continuing rebellion, idolatry, and persecution of God’s people.

I do not—as the premils—see progressive events of history taking place, in chronological fashion, as some see in the Rev 19 and 20 battle visions. Though there is a dramatic intensification of rebellion, idolatry, and judgment as the very end of time draws near, as the increases of wickedness and judgment are shown from seals to trumpets to vials (bowls), though some commentators have slightly different takes on the parallel activities depicted by seals, trumpets, and vials.

That said, there may in hindsight be seen prophesied events occurring in time, as the phrase “which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year” (Rev 9:15) indicates God manifesting in time His specific “woes”—here referring to the massive judgment of the sixth trumpet, which is an outgrowth of the profound, vast deception loosed in the fifth trumpet.
 
Steve, Thankyou for the explanation. So if these are in parallel, the activity described by the term "deceive," in 19:20 and 20:8, must be in parallel. In the former we have the instruments, and in the latter we have the agent; and this is the essence of what is stated in chap. 13. Would you agree with this?

If these are in parallel, when do you think the activity of the beast and false prophet are to take place in relation to the thousand years?
 
Well, the battles of 19:20 and 20:8 are parallel, though the deceivings are not exactly so, yet they do overlap, which overlapping parts are parallel, but that which is not overlapping is not parallel.

What I mean is that the deceiving spoken of in 19:20, “by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image”, had been going on throughout the church age and at the final battle after it. John spoke of this deceiving and receiving the mark of the beast in Rev 13, so this deceiving activity has been happening even in the time of John’s writing the Apocalypse. So this is a general ongoing deceiving, not yet overlapping with the specific period of deceiving spoken of in 20:8 (and 16:13, 14, 16), which latter deceiving pertains strictly to the time when the thousand years are ended (Rev 20:3, 7). This deception involves not the general deceiving of individual souls throughout the thousand year NT church age but instead the nations qua nations after the thousand years (as the power of the gospel being preached the world ‘round had prevented it, but the gospel preaching was then suppressed, commencing the “little season” of Satan’s final deceiving of nations).

So there is the general deception of individuals, and the latter deception of nations. 19:20 speaks of the general deceiving as well as the nations’ deceiving. 20:3, 7-9 speaks only of the nations’ deceiving. Where the two mentions of deceiving in these respective passages run parallel is during the final battle; Rev 16 and 20 pertain strictly to the nations, though 19:20 includes the entire church age (the 1,000 years), and after it (the “little season” Rev 20:3, 7). The former do not include the thousand years.

Yes, in 19:20 we see the instruments, and in 20:3, 7-8 the agent, though in 20:9 we see the instruments also (the rank and file of them). In Rev 13 we see the instruments, if by instruments you mean beast, false prophet, and rank and file; and the agent (the dragon) we can also see in 13:4, who empowers the instruments.

The activity of the beast and false prophet take place throughout the thousand years, and after it, from John’s day till the very end, until they are thrown into the lake of fire. But they, like their infernal head, the dragon, do not have power to deceive over the nations while the gospel is going forth breaking the powers of darkness across the world. They do, however, have power to deceive individuals during the thousand years, and this is their activity in that period. Now when that 1,000 years is finished, and the dragon is loosed for his “little season”, they have power with him to deceive nations. We see this here:

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. . .

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon (Rev 16:12-14, 16).​

They—the hellish “trinity”—are working together to gather the nations to the final battle against God, and the form it takes is the persecution and killing of His people, the church—in which He dwells. This occurs during the “little season” of Satan’s being loosed. The “he gathered” of 16:16 refers to the Lord, bringing all His opponents to battle to face their doom, and then eternal judgment.

So beast and false prophet have activity during the thousand years, and after it as well. I hope this is clear—and please pardon any redundancy. I wanted to get this out, and haven’t polished it fully.
 
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So there is the general deception of individuals, and the latter deception of nations.

Thanks, Steve, for your time.

In still trying to understand your prophetic scheme, I note that Rev. 13:7 says, "and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." How does this fit in with the idea of confining the power to individuals?

If you have the sixth vial in parallel with the little season of loosing, doesn't this make the sixth vial a distinct period of time? If so, why can't you understand the previous five vials as distinct periods? And if the vials are in parallel with the trumpets and seals, does this mean you understand the sixth trumpet and the sixth seal as parallel with the little season of loosing?
 
I think it a poor move, the idea to take up arms against the massive firepower of the government, and one that will backfire on the larger peaceful Christian community. I have spoken of this in the chapter, “Provoking The Beast—By Armed Resistance”, in the Armageddon section. Christians have spiritual weapons to wage this warfare.

I've been thinking of this lately. Even aside from the theological wrongness of fighting the Beast, practically it is impossible. We simply can't fight drones (not the kind NATO uses, anyway).
 
Steve: Hello Matthew,

Even at the commencement of the NT church age, John tells us that “the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:19), Satan being “the god of this age” (2 Cor 4:4), in which the unregenerate walk “according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience” (Eph 2:2). Clearly, then, he has power over the nations, albeit limited. When the gospel is fully suppressed at the end of the age his deceiving power will be unlimited, according to God’s plan. Concerning your question re the “nations” here is a brief quote from Beale on Rev 13:7,

“[the early]…activity of the beast is an initial fulfillment and affects all classes of people throughout the earth.” GK Beale (NIGTC, Revelation, p 698) [emphasis added]​

It is that, due to the mighty power of the gospel, the nations as nations cannot be deceived into being marshaled together to consolidate globally to crush the saints. It is unregenerate individuals who are affected across the world—all nations of them—by the powers of darkness blinding their minds. This has happened throughout this age. As nations they have not gathered together to go after the church. But at the end they will. So great will the power of deception be that a universal consensus of all the wicked will cohere—inspired by the blasphemies of a great world leader inspired himself by Satan—and move to utterly do away with the saints of the Most High, so as to cease their lifting up the Law of God, sin, judgment, and their incessant talk of the Saviour whose blood can wash away their sin. They are sick of hearing about sin and judgment, they despise the remedy of repentance and faith unto eternal life. As an entire planet the earth will be changed from wicked individuals to a wicked coalition of all its peoples under deceived rulers bent on plundering and killing the saints, as the testimony of the church had “tormented them that dwelt on the earth” (Rev 11:10).

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Then you posit these three questions:

“If you have the sixth vial in parallel with the little season of loosing, doesn't this make the sixth vial a distinct period of time? If so, why can't you understand the previous five vials as distinct periods? And if the vials are in parallel with the trumpets and seals, does this mean you understand the sixth trumpet and the sixth seal as parallel with the little season of loosing?”

These are complex details, and all woven together of one cloth. The amil commentators have differing schemas concerning the relationship of the seals, trumpets and vials to one another. Perhaps the most helpful scholarship on this matter is in Sam Storms’ Kingdom Come, in chapter 13, “The Book of Revelation and Biblical Eschatology: The Chronology of the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl Judgments”, particularly pages 394-406. He lays out quite a few of the views. Without going into all the minutiae of detail I will give a general idea of how I see it. It should be understood that my seeing the fifth trumpet’s vision of immense spiritual and psychic darkness suddenly unleashed being fulfilled by the sorcery of the Beat and Woodstock generations opening the shaft of the abyss is the tether to which my understanding is tied, and by which I am oriented to the other visions. One might say it is a weak nail upon which to hang my position; however, I can ably defend it, and make fuller sense of the material than others. In truth it is a solid and immovable nail, and will prove itself sound.

Seals 1-5 pertain to the entire age. The first four speak of judgments meted upon the wicked for idolatry, wickedness, and persecution of the saints. The fifth is the saints crying to God to avenge their blood unjustly shed. Seal 6 opens a vision of almost the end of the age, just before the second coming. The first four trumpet visions seem to refer to judgments on man’s environment: earth, oceans, inland waters, and atmosphere, and for the most part are the results of man’s own abuse of his world; for instance, the dangers and the toxicity we have introduced in these respective realms. These appear to have commenced—or at least become full-blown—with the industrial age. Trumpet 5 speaks of a massive influx of demonic influence entering the human sphere, such as darkens the spirits and souls of men—only the unregenerate, as the seal of God protects His children from this “woe” and the resulting torment—and this appears to lead directly to the sixth trumpet and further demonic activity in the human realm, manifesting in mass killing, one-third of humankind to be precise. This has not manifested yet, though we have a lot of nuclear sabre-rattling among ungodly and violent world leaders. There is also a growing madness in the world, violence becoming increasingly rampant, world leaders unstable yet steady in their unhingedness.

Such a massive death-toll could be caused by pandemics of disease, or by nuclear exchanges. The death of one-third of humankind would indicate a preliminary major judgment as a prelude to an Armageddon-scale final judgment. The destruction of Babylon headquarters would fit the bill for such a “preliminary” thing. Okay, so this speaks of the sixth trumpet. The commentators, notably GK Beale (and others after him), see this sixth trumpet judgment as leading into the sixth vial, which is Revelation 16’s Armageddon. Interestingly, the darkness of the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] trumpet is similar to the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] vial’s: “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat [or throne] of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness” (Rev 16:10).

How does all this relate to the “little season” of Satan being loosed to gather all nations to war against the saints and their God? This “little season” of Satan is contemporaneous with the silencing, criminalizing, and violent actions against the global church of Christ. It is written of Babylon that she was “drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus” (Rev 17:6). Perhaps she is the precursor to a broader violent persecution of the saints. We will unmistakably recognize Babylon flying her colors when we see this.

I quote a little from a chapter in A Great and Terrible Love, “Correlating Visions in Revelation” :


It is written in Rev 9 that there are four angels bound in or at the great River Euphrates, and a command given that they should be loosed:

Revelation 9:15: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.​

Stephen Smalley remarks,

Beale (507) notes that the reference to the river Euphrates in verse 14 anticipates the battle of the sixth bowl in 16.12-16 (the ‘great River’ features in verse 12); indeed, the sixth trumpet and the sixth bowl seem to depict the same event from different points of view (cf. 9.19). . . . God’s judgment, like his sovereignty, is universal and eternal, but it is discovered historically at particular moments, and it derives from exact and human circumstances. See also on verse 15. (Stephen S. Smalley, The Revelation to John: A Commentary on the Greek Text of the Apocalypse; IVP 2005), p 237)​

Please note two things here: first, the sixth trumpet and sixth bowl / vial are considered “the same event” though from different perspectives, likely one further in time than the other; and, second, with regard to the timing of the events spoken of, they are particular and historic, not – in this case – the age-long recapitulated dynamics of idealist understanding (as other “eclectic” or “modified idealist” commentators likewise perceive). Smalley continues,

The torment of the first woe is followed up by the widespread killing in the second. The four angel-winds, chained up at the river Euphrates until this moment (see on verse 14), are now ‘released’ to destroy one-third of the human race. . . . These agents ‘had been in readiness’ for the action to follow; and the perfect tense of the verb… hētoimasmenoi, lit. ‘had been prepared’, ‘had been made ready’…, intensifies the notion that the angel-winds were poised to attack at a particular moment in history (cf. Matt 25.34, 41).​

They were in readiness for this ‘very hour and day and month and year’. . . . [highlighting] the double truth that God is responsible not only for this judgment but also for its precise timing (see also on verse 14). (pp 237, 238)​

With regard to the particular timing of the sixth trumpet, Beale says,

John hears the voice say that the time has now come. The angels are released according to God’s sovereign timetable. The time that these angels are to be released is specified down to the hour to emphasize that “all the forces of history are under the sovereign control of God. He is the Almighty One (1:8; 4:8; 11:17; 19:15; etc.).” (G.K. Beale, New International Greek Testament Commentary: Revelation, Eerdmans 1999), p 508​

The last quote by Beale is from Robert H. Mounce’s, The Book of Revelation (Revised). Immediately before this sentence Mounce says,

At the exact moment decreed by God the angels of destruction and their demonic horde will be released upon the human race. (p 195; NICNT edition)​

Again, this makes clear that in Rev 9:15 we are dealing with events in time that may be discerned, and if already past in hindsight as historical realities.

With regard to historic timing – of the fifth trumpet in particular – I repeat the earlier quote of Dennis Johnson,

Though limited in duration and severity, this outbreak of demonic activity among the unbelieving carries the expression of God’s wrath in the course of history to a new level, a first woe. (Dennis E. Johnson, Triumph of the Lamb, p 149)​

Beale here connects the fifth and sixth trumpets,

. . . the demons bring physical death on many whom they have held in a condition of deception, while tormenting and keeping the remainder in such a state. As noted, this means that the sixth trumpet is an escalation of the fifth by its introduction of death, but the sixth trumpet continues to unleash the affliction of the fifth against all the surviving nonelect. (Op Cit., p 517)​

So here Beale is connecting the fifth and sixth trumpet judgment visions, saying that the latter intensifies and develops the former. Those familiar with my other writings on this subject will recall that the sorcery-induced influx of demonic influence and presence depicted in the fifth trumpet, over the course of the following half a century gave rise to escalating murderous content in the zeitgeist, so that in this demonically-transformed spirit of the age to take life was to many not a big thing.

[End excerpt from AGATL]
 
As an entire planet the earth will be changed from wicked individuals to a wicked coalition of all its peoples under deceived rulers bent on plundering and killing the saints, as the testimony of the church had “tormented them that dwelt on the earth” (Rev 11:10).

Steve, I recognise that this is your position, as this is something you have emphatically stated on many occasions. My main concern is to make sure I understand the prophetic scheme which underlies this position. I hope to know the exegetical basis on which you can confidently assert that this is going to happen.

Thankyou for taking the time to clarify your thoughts on the seals, trumpets, and vials. I am a little confused as to the use you are making of amillennial commentators. Do you think that they are speaking of "intensification" in terms of a distinct time period? Or are they using this term in the context of recapitulation?

Also, I wonder about the use of Mounce in this discussion. His website says, "For over thirty years Mounce’s commentary on Revelation in the NICNT has served as the definitive presentation of the Apocalypse from a historical pre-millennial approach."
 
Hello Matthew,

You say, “I am a little confused as to the use you are making of amillennial commentators. Do you think that they are speaking of ‘intensification’ in terms of a distinct time period? Or are they using this term in the context of recapitulation?”

Yes, they almost all do see it as in time: Hendriksen, Morris, Smalley, D.E. Johnson, Lenski, Beale, etc. While they all see recapitulation operating in the book, when it comes to the latter trumpets and vials the intensification is in time, building as the end nears. A partial exception may be Hendriksen, who—if my memory serves me right—sees seals, trumps, and vials operating throughout, and yet intensifying at the end (I don’t have time to look into his details at the moment).

The use of Mounce is Beale’s idea! I had heard they were close friends and would happily confer over insights they each had, though they differed in viewpoint. Mounce says in his Intro (p 32) that he sought to organize his commentary on the “literary structure” of Revelation, rather than other organizing schemas, which makes his commentary rather atypical.

Beale’s use of him in the quote I offered pertains to a minute exegetical point concerning the significance of the phrase “an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year” (Rev 9:15), and they concur that, as noted above, it signifies an historical event in time as distinguished from the usual idealist ahistorical (or in your term, “all-historical”) understanding. I added from Mounce to give more of the context.

My “exegetical basis” is rather standard amil, and I follow the commentators above (plus some others) fairly closely, with the exception of my view—and exegesis—of pharmakeia / sorcery being a key interpretive tool in the understanding of the latter trumpets, vials, Babylon, and Armageddon. Not that I really differ from them, but that I fill in much that they leave blank.

Challenging convention is sometimes necessary to break new light.
 
Not that I really differ from them, but that I fill in much that they leave blank.

That is what I am having a hard time seeing. From what I can see they do not "fill in" as a matter of hermeneutical principle. When you "fill in" it must be based on a hermeneutical principle they are not employing.

E.g., Beale on the bowls, says, "The bowls go back in time before what is depicted in ch. 14 and explains in greater detail the woes throughout the age culminating in the final judgment" (786). Again, "the bowl plagues would extend throughout the course of the latter-day period, from Christ's first to second coming" (787). Again, "The bowls complement and round out the portrayal of divine wrath in the seals and trumpets" (788). On the sixth trumpet and sixth bowl he says, "That woe likely covers the whole inter-advent period (see on 9:14-19). If so, then the sixth trumpet contains a punitive pattern that finds consummation in the sixth bowl" (829).

I grant that Beale holds to an end of the age persecution and so forth. But he also maintains the symbolic imagery is for all of history, that is, it applies to a state of affairs that is relevant to the saints at all times. His comment on 16:15 shows why this must be the case: "V 15 is relevant for the readership in Asia Minor, since it combines two exhortations from two of the letters, which are also generally addressed to all the churches (c.f. 3:6, 22). The members of the churches must themselves expect that the situation described in 16:12-16 could happen at any moment" (837).

It is not just that Beale doesn't fill in the gaps. He effectively closes the gaps by making the visions applicable to the inter-adventual age as a whole. In contrast, your view makes these visions refer to a specific time period which has not been before.
 
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Matthew, you said, “When you ‘fill in’ it must be based on a hermeneutical principle they are not employing.” OR, it could be having information they are not factoring in and employing. Okay, there is a principle Prof Beale may not be using; Geerhardus Vos, although speaking of discerning the Antichrist, enunciated a principle applicable here,

“[It] belongs among the many prophecies, whose best and final exegete will be the eschatological fulfillment, and in regard to which it behooves the saints to exercise a peculiar kind of eschatological patience.” (The Pauline Eschatology, p. 133)​

O.T. Allis in his book, Prophecy and the Church, expressed the same sentiment:

“The usual view on this subject [‘the intelligibility of prophecy’] has been that prophecy is not intended to be fully understood before its fulfilment, that it is only when God ‘establishes the word of his servants and fulfills the counsel of his messengers,’ that the meaning and import of their words become fully manifest.” (p 25)​

Stuart Olyott in his, Dare to Stand Alone: Daniel Simply Explained, thinks likewise:

“We must realize that some of the Bible’s teachings relating to the very last days will not be understood until we are in those days. That is why it is both unwise and dangerous to draw up detailed timetables of future events. Some parts of the Word of God will not become obvious in their meaning until the days of which they speak have dawned.” (p 166)​

[These three men are all of the Amillennial school.]

It is accepted that the “eclectic” or “modified idealist” view (Beale) allows some departure from the idealist, though as to where the line is drawn there is no clear consensus. Beale himself says, “...certainly there are prophecies of the future in Revelation. The crucial yet problematic task of the interpreter is to identify through careful exegesis and against the historical background those texts which pertain respectively to past present and future.” (G.K. Beale, New International Greek Testament Commentary: Revelation Eerdmans 1999), p 49.

So his “hermeneutic principle” allows variance from his particular exegesis. After all, his work, excellent though it is, is not engraved in stone. I do appreciate your bringing me back into pondering Beale; that is always profitable.

And Beale—since you quote him perhaps seeking to refute my use of him—in his humility, and tacit acknowledgment that some things cannot be pronounced upon with certainty, is often very tentative in his interpretations, and well should he.

You quote him above, “The bowls go back in time before what is depicted in ch. 14 and explains in greater detail the woes throughout the age culminating in the final judgment" (786). Again, "the bowl plagues would extend throughout the course of the latter-day period, from Christ's first to second coming" (787).

His first sentence does speak of recapitulation, God’s wrath manifested “throughout the age”, and yet at the end of the sentence when he says, “culminating in the final judgment” he is speaking of “ ‘intensification’ in terms of a distinct time period”. For instance, when explicating Rev 16:14b he says,

The purpose of the deception is “to gather them together for the war of the great day of God Almighty.” The same expression occurs in chs. 19 and 20, where it refers respectively to the beast and the dragon gathering kings together to fight against Christ at his final coming . . . [Rev 19:19; 20:8]​

The reference here is probably the same as in chs. 19 and 20: the confrontation between the forces of the beast and Christ at the end of the age. (pp 834-835)​

This is a temporal battle he is talking of, and the images speak of temporality. It is also the sixth vial; kings and the people of the world are being gathered.

In his second sentence you quoted, “the bowl plagues would extend throughout the course of the latter-day period, from Christ’s first to second coming”, we have the same phenomena, age-long recapitulation coupled with end-of-the-age “ ‘intensification’ in terms of a distinct time period”.

To digress for a moment, when Beale says in his Intro to the last three trumpets (p 490), “As with the first four seals and the first four trumpets, so also the woes of the fifth and sixth trumpets are active throughout the entire course of the church age (see pp. 108-51 above).” If he wishes to say—concerning trumpets 5 and 6—that demonic influence from the abyss has been coming into the human heart and spirit all through the age, and the spirits of murder have been inflaming men similarly, fine; but a radical intensification has occurred with trumpet 5, as Dennis Johnson notes:

Though limited in duration and severity, this outbreak of demonic activity among the unbelieving carries the expression of God’s wrath in the course of history to a new level, a first woe. (Dennis E. Johnson, Triumph of the Lamb, p 149)​

Although I am out of my league interacting with Beale as I do, nonetheless I maintain that lack of awareness concerning the historical event when the demonic activity of Rev 9 was loosed leaves him to see things “ideally” instead of really. In this his exegesis—his vision—lacks.

Stephen Smalley writes regarding this trumpet, “The judgmental action of the fifth angel [causing agony in men], despite its figurative and eschatological elements, seems to be expressed in time and space; but it nevertheless anticipates the judgment of the end-time, when weeping and ‘gnashing of teeth’ await the unbeliever (cf. Matt. 8.12; 22.13; 25.30).” (Op Cit., p 406)

Deception is the weapon used by the powers of darkness (though this is a judgment from the Lord on idolatrous men); in this and the last century it has accelerated and spread exponentially.

Beale says of the nature of the deception in the sixth trumpet,

In contrast to the fifth trumpet, the sixth includes death together with deception. Therefore, the sixth trumpet intensifies and develops further the woe of the fifth. . . [emphasis added]

The deception manifests itself partly through the false teachers affirming the legitimacy of some form of idolatry for Christians (cf., e.g., 2:6, 14-15, 20, 21). . .The deceptive facet of the sixth trumpet is implied by its parallels with the sixth bowl, especially the judgment of deception and the manner in which it comes: the pouring out of the bowl on “the great river, the Euphrates,” results in the coming of “the kings from the east,” and of “three unclean spirits like frogs” coming “out of the mouth”….of the dragon, of the beast, and of the false prophet to gather together “the kings of the earth” for battle (16:12-14; so also 17:17; 20:8; cf. 17:8). The equation of the sixth trumpet with the sixth bowl is a natural one, since elsewhere in the Exodus plague tradition the frogs are paralleled with serpents and scorpions as instruments of judgment . . . (Beale; Op. Cit., p 513) [emphasis added]​

Now given the intimate relatedness of the fifth trumpet with the sixth trumpet, and of the sixth trumpet with the sixth vial [bowl], and seeing as how the sixth vial is at the very end of history, being “the battle” that ends the age, it may be there is a sense in which the sixth vial’s wrath is manifest throughout the age in limited precursors of the final wrath; but that the sixth vial is the symbol representing the battle of the end where Christ destroys all His enemies, I do not think can be denied.

Your Beale quote, “V 15 is relevant for the readership in Asia Minor…” is sound, as deception, judgment, and death may happen upon us at any historic point throughout the age. All of the book is for the edification of the early churches as well as the rest. But we know Beale also posits a final beast / antichrist figure who shall appear at the end of time, as well as false prophets and beast rulers all through the age. Yet the sixth trumpet—and by association the fifth trump, and the sixth vial—is where the time marker of 9:15 is placed. It is fine to apply it to the early church, but not limit it to that, as it appears to indicate a temporal event in that cluster of woes.

And, finally, you say,

“It is not just that Beale doesn't fill in the gaps. He effectively closes the gaps by making the visions applicable to the inter-adventual age as a whole. In contrast, your view makes these visions refer to a specific time period which has not been before.”​

Matthew, I think you way overstate your case in that remark! And you concede serious qualification of it when you admit, “I grant that Beale holds to an end of the age persecution and so forth.” For when Beale speaks of the sixth vial and Armageddon—and those events which immediately precede and lead to it—we find ourselves in history, in events the symbols of which speak powerfully of our times. He does not close the gaps that must be filled in with sound exegesis, for we will need clear vision of the terrain in the days to come.

Please, cease for a while, as I need to get the book out (I’ve been adding a little to it) that tells the story of all these things, and how the Lord brought a no-account wretch to write it. Maybe the commentators and exegetes will pick it up; maybe they could even learn a thing or two.
 
Geerhardus Vos, although speaking of discerning the Antichrist, enunciated a principle applicable here,

“[It] belongs among the many prophecies, whose best and final exegete will be the eschatological fulfillment, and in regard to which it behooves the saints to exercise a peculiar kind of eschatological patience.” (The Pauline Eschatology, p. 133)​

I would suggest you are not exercising that "eschatological patience," Steve. Nothing you say can in any way identify the "antichrist," so I fail to see how you can honestly appropriate Vos' point.


though as to where the line is drawn there is no clear consensus.

I think there is a clear consensus with respect to the recapitulation of the seven seals, trumpets, and vials, and their application to the inter-adventual age as a whole. Your interpretation is a clear departure from that consensus because you now attribute specific parts of each series to specific time periods.

So his “hermeneutic principle” allows variance from his particular exegesis.

Beale makes it quite clear that his future fulfilments are things which are relevant to the whole of the inter-adventual period. In contrast, you create literal referents which have had no bearing on the church in any other period.

This is a temporal battle he is talking of, and the images speak of temporality. It is also the sixth vial; kings and the people of the world are being gathered.

But it is also something that has been going on through the ages; it is not some new age battle.

but a radical intensification has occurred with trumpet 5

The intensification relates to the vision. It is a means of emphasis within the vision.

Beale says of the nature of the deception in the sixth trumpet,

In contrast to the fifth trumpet, the sixth includes death together with deception. Therefore, the sixth trumpet intensifies and develops further the woe of the fifth. . . [emphasis added]​


If this is applied to the whole period, as Beale appears to do, it should be clear that intensification relates to the vision's emphasis.

Yet the sixth trumpet—and by association the fifth trump, and the sixth vial—is where the time marker of 9:15 is placed.

That time-marker is your creation, and looks very much like the historicist hermeneutic which separates each element in the series as marking off a specific event in history.​
 
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I see.

Re “eschatological patience” you missed the point. It was not at all about the antichrist, but a principle.

“As to where the line is drawn” pertains to departing from the idealist in discerning “prophecies of the future in Revelation”.

As for literal referents, there has been magic and sorcery in the history of the church even from the book of Acts; the referent pertaining to our time is a matter of degree, and that of great magnitude, and impact upon the church.

The temporal battle has been going on since the time of Christ throughout the age, yet there is a finale to it in time, at the age’s end, of which Scripture, and Beale, speak clearly.

Relegating “intensification” to a mere visionary matter rather than effects of judgment upon the earth is almost platonic in its effeteness.

One third of humankind being killed in the period of the sixth trumpet is sort of an intensification, no? (in the fourth seal it was but one fourth). If it be said that this applies to folks simply dying throughout the age—or in wars throughout the age—what’s the big deal? Everyone dies in the course of their generation. If this is not a distinct period of an extraordinary death-toll, well, to say otherwise is to eviscerate the dramatic visions and symbols of the Apocalypse to an almost meaningless inspirational idealistic poetic. This is not what Beale does, neither Scripture.

The “consistent idealist” interpretation of the “time-marker” of Rev 9:15 is wanting. The eclectic view indicates the sixth trump begins in time, as does the 1/3[SUP]rd[/SUP] of humankind death-toll, a precursor of the global death-toll when the Lord Jesus returns in vengeance.

You are a “consistent idealist”—no historical referents in Revelation—and I am a “modified idealist” or an “eclectic”, with a very few historical referents, and those that are such are highly significant, leading to and preparing for the final battle, the Armageddon of the sixth bowl / vial. We differ, have each made our cases, and readers may choose which seem right to them. I am not much into Ping-Pong anymore.
 
You are a “consistent idealist”—no historical referents in Revelation—and I am a “modified idealist” or an “eclectic”, with a very few historical referents, and those that are such are highly significant, leading to and preparing for the final battle, the Armageddon of the sixth bowl / vial. We differ, have each made our cases, and readers may choose which seem right to them. I am not much into Ping-Pong anymore.

Steve, My comments have nothing to do with the consistency of my position. I have been trying to show that your view differs hermeneutically from others whom you claim under your banner. I don't think they would recognise their position in your historicism. Yes, readers may choose. That is the benefit of having an open discussion. And this is a discussion board.
 
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Re “eschatological patience” you missed the point. It was not at all about the antichrist, but a principle.

The principle relates to antichrist. My point is that you are misappropriating it by extending it beyond the context to which it was applied. And here you clearly state that you are extending it to a point where it has nothing to do with its original context.

If you hold to a future antichrist you would have to see this as something very prominently set forth as a characteristic of the "end times." That being the case, your prophetic scheme should be centred around the antichrist so as to be able to identify it when it comes. The reality is that your prophetic scheme omits the one assuming figure that would be required to verify or falsify your predictions. In laying claim to Vos' principle you neglect the central thing to which the principle applies.

It is also clear that you misappropriate the quotation of O. T Allis. He set firm limits to the idea of interpreting prophecy by events, and on the very next page (p. 26) he wrote,

Prophecy is a wonderful combination of the clear and the obscure. Enough of God’s purpose is revealed to act powerfully upon the heart and conscience of those to whom the heavenly message is sent, but not enough to make fatalists of them, to paralyze human effort, or to coerce the human will: enough to prove the message to have been a true word from Him to whom alone the unknown future is fully known, but not enough to enable man to foresee with certainty when and how that purpose is to be realized.
 
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Relegating “intensification” to a mere visionary matter rather than effects of judgment upon the earth is almost platonic in its effeteness.

Beale, Shorter Commentary, 24:

Given the fact that each series of judgments does express at its conclusion the same reality of final punishment and reward, and given the great similarities between the series of judgments, the observation that each series of judgment seems to intensify in effect is more easily understood as expressing the heart of God to express the same realities in ever more forceful terms as the book reaches its climax.

Our conclusion, therefore, is that the recapitulation position best explains the structure of Revelation. The book consists of a series of parallel visions in which God expresses the same truths in different ways.

Simon Kistemaker, Revelation, 10-11:

The parallelism depicted in the three sets (seals, trumpets, and bowls) suggests that the writer is not presenting a chronological sequence but rather different aspects of the same events. This is even more pronounced when we notice the frequent indirect and direct references to the final judgment.
 
Matthew, this is what Beale says of idealism:

The Idealist View

The idealist approach affirms that Revelation is a symbolic portrayal of the conflict between good and evil, between the forces of God and of Satan. The most radical form of this view holds that the book is a timeless depiction of this struggle. The problem with this alternative is that it holds that Revelation does not depict any final consummation to history, whether in God’s final victory or in a last judgment of the realm of evil. The idealist notion encounters the opposite problem facing the preterist or historicist views, since it identifies none of the book’s symbols with particular historical events. (Ibid., p 48)​

Other commentators would not “recognise their position in [my] historicism”? Well, Beale might disallow my take on tying the fifth trumpet to the commencement of the age of sorcery, and that the impact of said sorcery was what was referred to in Rev 18:23, yet he did allow that “...certainly there are prophecies of the future in Revelation. The crucial yet problematic task of the interpreter is to identify through careful exegesis and against the historical background those texts which pertain respectively to past present and future.” (Ibid., p 49)

I would not know his thoughts on my view unless I were able to talk with him about it, or he publicly opined on it. Other commentators do not take the idealistic stance to the degree Beale does regarding historical referents. Hendriksen, on the sixth bowl says, “As we have indicated, this sixth bowl, as well as the preceding ones, is evident again and again in history. Yet like the other bowls, it reaches its final and most complete realization just before and in connection with the last day.” (More Than Conquerors, p 163). On p 195 he questions if “certain regions of this earth [are] already entering Satan’s little season?” DE Johnson, as noted above, sees an historic expression of God’s wrath rising to a new level with the fifth trumpet. Caird, in the darkness of the fifth bowl, sees “the total collapse of the monster’s [the beast’s] imperial power” (p 194).

Because I differ on one point with Beale does not mean I am not in accord with him in the main. This is the case with all the Revelation commentators—they all disagree in small areas. When Beale wrote his (very rare) commendation of Sam Storms’ work he said,

“While one may not agree with all he says on this subject [the viability of the Amillennial perspective on eschatology], the upshot of the book as a whole is a solid argument in favor of Amillennialism . . . He posits the surely correct hermeneutical approach that the rest of the Bible (e.g., Paul’s epistles) should be understood as the main interpretive lens for eschatology and not any particular interpretation of Revelation 20, which too many have let control their understanding of eschatology elsewhere throughout the Bible.” (first page of author commendations, Kingdom Come)​

Beale is not as rigid as the “consistent idealist” view in what it allows and disallows. I do not think I am inaccurate when I say I am in accord—in the main—with the other amil commentators. It is almost laughable when you allege my “historicism” because in hindsight I see in one historical event a prophetic symbol realized. Amil author Stuart Olyott shows I am not in bad company when he says,

“We must realize that some of the Bible’s teachings relating to the very last days will not be understood until we are in those days. That is why it is both unwise and dangerous to draw up detailed timetables of future events. Some parts of the Word of God will not become obvious in their meaning until the days of which they speak have dawned.” (Op. Cit., p 166)​
 
Regarding my quote of Vos, whose import you misunderstand, I shall repeat it with a little more of its context, so as to prove my point:

In what has been said in this concluding section of our inquiry [of the man of sin] there has entered much that of necessity remains highly problematical, and will only cease to be so in the same degree that the vision hastens on to the end. 2 Thess. belongs among the many prophecies, whose best and final exegete will be the eschatological fulfillment, and in regard to which it behooves the saints to exercise a peculiar kind of eschatological patience. (The Pauline Eschatology, p. 133)​

That Vos brings up the phrase “2 Thess. belongs among the many prophecies” he shows that there are other prophecies—many prophecies—besides the man of sin, “whose best and final exegete will be the eschatological fulfilment…”. Thus in hindsight seeing we will understand.
 
And why is it Kistemaker says, “that each series of judgment seems to intensify in effect [and] is more easily understood as expressing the heart of God to express the same realities in ever more forceful terms as the book reaches its climax”? Because the intensity of judgment at the “climax” of the book—the vengeance of God on the wicked at Armageddon, and then the judgment throne—is indeed more intense. The “more forceful terms” reflect the intensity of historical impact.

As for Kistemaker, when he says the writer of Revelation is not presenting a chronological sequence in the visions, and he (K) appreciates the parallelism of seals, trumpets, and bowls in the literary structure of the book, this does not nullify Kistemaker’s appreciation for particular historical application. Speaking of the fifth and sixth trumpets, he says, “These two woes also instruct the saints to observe the signs of the time, for the end is imminent. The third woe introduces God’s judgment of the dead (11:15b-19).” (p 292)

As he explicates the sixth bowl / vial, Kistemaker says,

The closer he [Satan] comes to the end, the fiercer he plunges into battle. Worldwide he launches this battle against the kingdom of heaven and its King by seeking to overthrow the Christian church in an all-out war at the end. But the devil and his followers fail to realize that God brings together all the rulers of the world and their people for the purpose of defeating them. (p 450)​

Far from remaining in the ether of idealism, Kistemaker brings the realization of the sixth bowl down to the earth and its warring hordes seeking to destroy the Church, before they are themselves destroyed by the avenging Christ.
 
Beale and Kistemaker have already established that the intensity relates to the visions, and the visions relate to the same events. You call this platonic. To try to give an appearance that they are in agreement with your methodology you quote their exegesis of particular visions and then apply their exegesis to the events you have marked out. You descend into particular details and fill in events which they see as relating to the vision as a whole. At this point your hermeneutic is distinctively historicist, as over against idealism of any kind.

As for Vos, I will just make the same point again since it has not been addressed. Those who believe in a future antichrist are bound to show how their end time events relate to the apostacy and the man of sin of 2 Thess. 2. Without showing this it is impossible to verify or falsify the identification of events with the biblical description.
 
What I have called platonic—an ideal essentially detached from the real—are the visions of the end of the age essentially divorced from the reality of the deceptions on the ground leading to Armageddon, which realities the commentators distinctly speak of. The beauty of the eclectic position (modified idealism) is that it may reference an historical event while in the main remaining ideal. In the eclectic view it is not the "all or nothing" of the "radical" idealism Beale speaks against in post #25.

The "eschatological patience" Vos enjoins, which is rewarded when hindsight apprehends what was prophesied, clearly refers to "many prophecies" besides the antichrist. That doesn't seem so hard to get.

I will say this, Matthew, although it is time-consuming talking with you, you do make me think, and delve more deeply into topics than I otherwise would have, and for this I am grateful.
 
The beauty of the eclectic position (modified idealism) is that it may reference an historical event while in the main remaining ideal.

Your position is not eclectic, Steve. It is selectively historicist. In your first two posts in this thread, as well as on other threads and papers, you repeatedly speak of the fifth and sixth in the series of visions taking place at specific points and periods of history. On this thread you have even said that it took fifty years for the fifth trumpet to fully manifest. There is nothing idealist about this. When you speak like this you have ceased to be idealist in any sense. You have adopted an historicist hermeneutic that eclectics themselves reject.

You have boldly pronounced we are at the end. You have made statements about the destruction of nations. At this point you are not exercising any patience, but are hastily making identifications which have no basis in holy Scripture. You have made yourself a prophet, and it seems to me that time will make a false prophet of you, as it has done in the case of others.
 
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