This Dutch website shuts down on the Lord’s Day

[Seeking_Thy_Kingdom]

No it's hatred for Christ and spiritual things which make people dislike the Sabbath

I half agree with you here. I would not say that a hatred for Christ is what keeps our brothers and sisters from keeping the Sabbath, rather, it is ignorance of spiritual disciplines and a lack of preaching on the subject from the pulpit.

In mainline evangelicalism there is no scarier word that legalism, to them Sabbath keeping sounds legalistic which causes them to run directly into the trap of Antinomianism, a word that 95% of Evangelicals probably don’t even know. When I was in a non-denominational Church I never heard of the Sabbath or much on the first table of the Law, but I knew what legalism was and that was dangerous.

The abandoning of the Sabbath falls directly on the shoulders of the preachers of the Word. The Puritans could not stop preaching on it and yet most Churches today do not even utter the word. The biggest voices on Sabbath keeping today are Chick’fil’a and Hobby Lobby, that should sound like a trumpet blast to all of us.

On the positive side my Sabbath keeping during the NFL season has become my No.1 witnessing tool among my colleagues. Saying that I am would rather spend my Sunday enjoying and savoring communion with Christ than watching sports has many of them curious, and convicted my Christian brothers.

 

[alexandermsmith]

You make the Sabbath look like an unpleasant thing by your added rules.

These are the rules that Scottish Presbyterians have followed for generations and the Sabbath was a delight to them. It sounds like its your own modern, worldly tastes which are chafing at them.

 

[alexandermsmith]

This is the kind of mindset our Lord contended with.

No it's not.

 

[alexandermsmith]

There is no place to buy doctrinally sound books anywhere for at least a hundred miles. We believe the habit of reading godly Christian literature is a necessary part growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. So we provide them to our congregation. And with no one at our building except when we meet, it would not be possible to provide them during the week. This, I believe, gets back to the Sabbath being made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

Does your church not meet for any mid week services? Perhaps it should?

If it is true that there are only meetings held on the Sabbath that does not then justify the breaking of the Sabbath because that it is the only opportunity to distribute the books. How you cannot see the faulty reasoning here is beyond me. Perhaps, if the reading of spiritual books is necessary for the Christian walk, your church should appoint someone or ask for volunteers to open a book stall during the week at a convenient time. If it is so necessary you should make arrangements to facilitate the need and not just use the Sabbath because it is convenient.

 

[alexandermsmith]

I half agree with you here. I would not say that a hatred for Christ is what keeps our brothers and sisters from keeping the Sabbath, rather, it is ignorance of spiritual disciplines and a lack of preaching on the subject from the pulpit.

In mainline evangelicalism there is no scarier word that legalism, to them Sabbath keeping sounds legalistic which causes them to run directly into the trap of Antinomianism, a word that 95% of Evangelicals probably don’t even know. When I was in a non-denominational Church I never heard of the Sabbath or much on the first table of the Law, but I knew what legalism was and that was dangerous.

The abandoning of the Sabbath falls directly on the shoulders of the preachers of the Word. The Puritans could not stop preaching on it and yet most Churches today do not even utter the word. The biggest voices on Sabbath keeping today are Chick’fil’a and Hobby Lobby, that should sound like a trumpet blast to all of us.

On the positive side my Sabbath keeping during the NFL season has become my No.1 witnessing tool among my colleagues. Saying that I am would rather spend my Sunday enjoying and savoring communion with Christ than watching sports has many of them curious, and convicted my Christian brothers.

Agreed the lack of preaching and teaching on it s probably most to blame. Also to blame are those office bearers (and others within the church) who have deliberately trodden down the Sabbath and have made qualification after qualification to facilitate our modern lifestyle and tastes. Also to blame are those who when confronted with the Biblical and historic teaching on the Sabbath dismiss it as legalism because it would upset their recreations and would exclude most of what they consider "spiritual" activity on the Sabbath. Man does not want to keep the Sabbath by nature and indeed most Christians do not because they have been so infected with the world.

 

[Pergamum]

These are the rules that Scottish Presbyterians have followed for generations and the Sabbath was a delight to them. It sounds like its your own modern, worldly tastes which are chafing at them.

Ah...so this is how this will go down. You call me a worldling, so I'll call you a legalist. Just not by telephone on the Sabbath, I suppose.

 

[Tom Hart]

I must say I'm a little surprised that there are some on this board who approve of buying and selling on the Sabbath, simply because the items for sale are Christian books.

At my former church they were going to have a Sunday bake sale to raise money for helping elderly in the neighbourhood. The goal was laudable enough, but I told them I would have nothing to do with a project that encouraged violating the Sabbath by buying and selling.

Concerning another point in the present thread, I can see no reason that phoning someone or sending a message over the internet would be sinful, unless it were frivolous. On the Sabbath I often correspond with friends over the internet. I send them the lyrics of a psalm they might try singing. Most of the Christians I know have never sung a psalm.

And sometimes I've phoned home on the Sabbath, or I've phoned my lonely atheist friend who hates Jesus, just to let him know that I care about him. That kind of thing has never seemed to me out of place on the Sabbath, new to Reformed Christianity though I may be.

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

I must say I'm a little surprised that there are some on this board who approve of buying and selling on the Sabbath, simply because the items for sale are Christian books.

You can call it whatever you like. We provide solid Christian literature and Bibles for the people in our congregation on a small rack in a back room of the church. There is a little basket next to it for folks for payment. The goal is not to raise money. As I said, we give away more than we sell and most of what is sold is at a loss. The goal is simply making sure our folks have access to the best books for their edification and growth in grace. It is a supplement to our teaching ministry.

But I do agree with you on the bake sale.

Perhaps, if the reading of spiritual books is necessary for the Christian walk, your church should appoint someone or ask for volunteers to open a book stall during the week at a convenient time.

You are welcome to strain at that gnat if you like, but our current arrangement works very well. Thank you.

 

[cmt72]

Matthew Henry commentary on Colossians chapter 2:8-17

There is a philosophy which rightly exercises our reasonable faculties; a study of the works of God, which leads us to the knowledge of God, and confirms our faith in him. But there is a philosophy which is vain and deceitful; and while it pleases men's fancies, hinders their faith: such are curious speculations about things above us, or no concern to us. Those who walk in the way of the world, are turned from following Christ. We have in Him the substance of all the shadows of the ceremonial law. All the defects of it are made up in the gospel of Christ, by his complete sacrifice for sin, and by the revelation of the will of God. To be complete, is to be furnished with all things necessary for salvation. By this one word "complete," is shown that we have in Christ whatever is required. "In him," not when we look to Christ, as though he were distant from us, but we are in him, when, by the power of the Spirit, we have faith wrought in our hearts by the Spirit, and we are united to our Head. The circumcision of the heart, the crucifixion of the flesh, the death and burial to sin and to the world, and the resurrection to newness of life, set forth in baptism, and by faith wrought in our hearts, prove that our sins are forgiven, and that we are fully delivered from the curse of the law. Through Christ, we, who were dead in sins, are quickened. Christ's death was the death of our sins; Christ's resurrection is the quickening of our souls. The law of ordinances, which was a yoke to the Jews, and a partition-wall to the Gentiles, the Lord Jesus took out of the way. When the substance was come, the shadows fled. Since every mortal man is, through the hand-writing of the law, guilty of death, how very dreadful is the condition of the ungodly and unholy, who trample under foot that blood of the Son of God, whereby alone this deadly hand-writing can be blotted out! Let not any be troubled about bigoted judgments which related to meats, or the Jewish solemnities. The setting apart a portion of our time for the worship and service of God, is a moral and unchangeable duty, but had no necessary dependence upon the seventh day of the week, the sabbath of the Jews. The first day of the week, or the Lord's day, is the time kept holy by Christians, in remembrance of Christ's resurrection. All the Jewish rites were shadows of gospel blessings.

 

[alexandermsmith]

You can call it whatever you like. We provide solid Christian literature and Bibles for the people in our congregation on a small rack in a back room of the church. There is a little basket next to it for folks for payment. The goal is not to raise money. As I said, we give away more than we sell and most of what is sold is at a loss. The goal is simply making sure our folks have access to the best books for their edification and growth in grace. It is a supplement to our teaching ministry.

But I do agree with you on the bake sale.

You are welcome to strain at that gnat if you like, but our current arrangement works very well. Thank you.

This sort of reasoning could be used to justify a lot of things. Why not have tea and coffee provided after the service in the church to allow people to converse about the sermon? Why not have a wee stall of baked goods to raise money to meet the necessary expenses of such a time. Just a wee stall of baked goods at the back of the church. This is what happens.

 

[Pergamum]

This sort of reasoning could be used to justify a lot of things. Why not have tea and coffee provided after the service in the church to allow people to converse about the sermon? Why not have a wee stall of baked goods to raise money to meet the necessary expenses of such a time. Just a wee stall of baked goods at the back of the church. This is what happens.

Tea and coffee provided after the service sounds like a wonderful way to encourage fellowship before folks go home.

 

[Grant]

Why not have tea and coffee provided after the service in the church to allow people to converse about the sermon?

Alexander,

I am 100% for eliminating commerce on the Lord’s Day as much as possible outside of mercy & necessity (of which I do not see churches selling books on the Lord’s Day fitting). However, could you clarify what you mean here please (the portion I quoted)? Maybe you mean like selling coffee or having it catered?

Our church provides free coffee during the Sabbath School Hour (no Lord’s Day commerce involved). Further, we often have a fellowship meal after the morning worship service where families bring food to share. Coffee and tea are made my our kitchen volunteers for this meal (again no Lord’s Day commerce involved).

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Why not have tea and coffee provided after the service in the church to allow people to converse about the sermon?

Yes. Why not? Please explain to us how that violates the fourth commandment.

 

[Tom Hart]

You can call it whatever you like. We provide solid Christian literature and Bibles for the people in our congregation on a small rack in a back room of the church. There is a little basket next to it for folks for payment. The goal is not to raise money. As I said, we give away more than we sell and most of what is sold is at a loss. The goal is simply making sure our folks have access to the best books for their edification and growth in grace. It is a supplement to our teaching ministry.

But I do agree with you on the bake sale.

I am not interested in arguing. I'll leave you to consider whether your church's practice is consistent with a confessionally Reformed view of the Sabbath.

 

[Tom Hart]

This sort of reasoning could be used to justify a lot of things. Why not have tea and coffee provided after the service in the church to allow people to converse about the sermon?

I'm honestly wondering what your Lord's Day looks like. What do you do after the morning service?

I see no reason why tea or coffee or lunch would be bad things on the Lord's Day, or why they would necessarily lead to buying and selling. You have asserted both but not proved them.

 

[alexandermsmith]

Alexander,

I am 100% for eliminating commerce on the Lord’s Day as much as possible outside of mercy & necessity (of which I do not see churches selling books on the Lord’s Day fitting). However, could you clarify what you mean here please (the portion I quoted)? Maybe you mean like selling coffee or having it catered?

Our church provides free coffee during the Sabbath School Hour (no Lord’s Day commerce involved). Further, we often have a fellowship meal after the morning worship service where families bring food to share. Coffee and tea are made my our kitchen volunteers for this meal (again no Lord’s Day commerce involved).

I'm honestly wondering what your Lord's Day looks like. What do you do after the morning service?

I see no reason why tea or coffee or lunch would be bad things on the Lord's Day, or why they would necessarily lead to buying and selling. You have asserted both but not proved them.

On Sabbath people arrive for the service and they leave after the service. Some of us will mill around for a short while outside to say hello to people (being a city congregation Sabbath is often the only time many people in the congregation see each other) and, we hope, talk about the sermon. A lot of people just go straight home after the service. In our rural congregations there is usually no hanging around after the services (it tends to be a city thing). We don't believe socialising in the church over tea and coffee after the service is appropriate for the Sabbath. It provides too much opportunity for worldy conversation and other dangers. The church is for worship not socialising.

That said in our London congregation because of the great distances many in have to travel to get there, there are those who will stay at the church during the afternoon and they will all contribute to providing lunch. But this is due to the unique circumstances of that congregation.

Providing tea and coffee after the service doesn't necessarily lead to buying and selling but it often does and I've seen it myself in the church I grew up in. When you've got a regular gathering where refreshments are provided it's an easy step to suggesting people sell baked goods, or other items. Why even risk it?

If a church wants to do something socially to involve the congregation that should be done on another day of the week. That's not what the Sabbath is for.

 

[Grant]

On Sabbath people arrive for the service and they leave after the service. Some of us will mill around for a short while outside to say hello to people (being a city congregation Sabbath is often the only time many people in the congregation see each other) and, we hope, talk about the sermon. A lot of people just go straight home after the service. In our rural congregations there is usually no hanging around after the services (it tends to be a city thing). We don't believe socialising in the church over tea and coffee after the service is appropriate for the Sabbath. It provides too much opportunity for worldy conversation and other dangers. The church is for worship not socialising.

That said in our London congregation because of the great distances many in have to travel to get there, there are those who will stay at the church during the afternoon and they will all contribute to providing lunch. But this is due to the unique circumstances of that congregation.

Providing tea and coffee after the service doesn't necessarily lead to buying and selling but it often does and I've seen it myself in the church I grew up in. When you've got a regular gathering where refreshments are provided it's an easy step to suggesting people sell baked goods, or other items. Why even risk it?

If a church wants to do something socially to involve the congregation that should be done on another day of the week. That's not what the Sabbath is for.

Alexander,

Thanks for sharing. While we still agree on the principal (no commerce on the Lord’s Day outside of mercy & necessity), we disagree on the banning of a church having coffee made for members to have free coffee outside the worship service. You stated that it is best to just go home after service and not “socialize”, but you also say we “can” talk to those in the service about the sermon and spiritual matters. That’s not connecting for me.

Further, when I drink a cup of coffee on the Lord’s Day, that liquid does not somehow serve as a brain-wash potion to make me say “I gotta buy something” or “I gotta sell something”. That temptation is there in my fallen heart, not the coffee. In fact fellowshipping with brothers/sisters about Spiritual matters at the prepared (not purchased) meal in many ways helps me and my family keep the Lord’s Day.

The only thing our church “sells” on a couple Lord’s Days per year, which is very sad and troubling for me, is the “sacred” Easter Lily and Poinsettia

 

[Tom Hart]

The church is for worship not socialising.

I agree with you there. I've seen plenty of "church-as-social-club" thinking.

Still, it seems strange to me that no one sticks around at your church.

Since I asked about your church, I'll share a bit about mine. my church we have a simple lunch and then we practice a new psalm for the following Lord's Day. Then we study church history and ecclesiology.

Providing tea and coffee after the service doesn't necessarily lead to buying and selling but it often does and I've seen it myself in the church I grew up in.

I'm very curious now. How did that happen? They started charging for the refreshments? Was it a Reformed church? (I've belonged to a church - very much un-Reformed and anti-Sabbatarian - where, one Sunday a month there was soup for $2 a bowl.)

When you've got a regular gathering where refreshments are provided it's an easy step to suggesting people sell baked goods, or other items. Why even risk it?

Is it possible you are building a hedge around the law? I'd advise that you tread carefully there.

If a church wants to do something socially to involve the congregation that should be done on another day of the week. That's not what the Sabbath is for.

As with many things you say, I agree with the basic principle, but not with the application. There are so many positive Sabbath activities that are by their nature social. Sharing a meal with neighbours, for example, or visiting those who are sick or in prison.

 

[Grant]

The answer to the temptation to have worldly discussions on the Lord’s Day is not to hide under a rock unless in the called Corporate Worship Service. Rather it should be to strive and pray for the HS’s help to change and help you have Godly conversations on the Lord’s Day with all whom you cross paths.

Admittedly this is a hard thing. Often during hunting and football season that is the first question out of someone else’s mouth to me (or about work). The temptation to talk about vocation is often one I fall into. Now I know this is not willful and mostly due to people trying to break the ice who are not the best conversationalist, but this is a temptation for us all. I try my best to combat this by asking questions dealing with spiritual matters.

Like other things we try to be obedient to for the first time, there is a season of awkwardness. The answer is practice... and when we slip, then try again. At all times depending on Christ and his word.

 

[alexandermsmith]

Alexander,

Thanks for sharing. While we still agree on the principal (no commerce on the Lord’s Day outside of mercy & necessity), we disagree on the banning of a church having coffee made for members to have free coffee outside the worship service. You stated that it is best to just go home after service and not “socialize”, but you also say we “can” talk to those in the service about the sermon and spiritual matters. That’s not connecting for me.

Further, when I drink a cup of coffee on the Lord’s Day, that liquid does not somehow serve as a brain-wash potion to make me say “I gotta buy something” or “I gotta sell something”. That temptation is there in my fallen heart, not the coffee. In fact fellowshipping with brothers/sisters about Spiritual matters at the prepared (not purchased) meal in many ways helps me and my family keep the Lord’s Day.

The only thing our church “sells” on a couple Lord’s Days per year, which is very sad and troubling for me, is the “sacred” Easter Lily and Poinsettia

I agree with you there. I've seen plenty of "church-as-social-club" thinking.

Still, it seems strange to me that no one sticks around at your church.

Since I asked about your church, I'll share a bit about mine. my church we have a simple lunch and then we practice a new psalm for the following Lord's Day. Then we study church history and ecclesiology.

I'm very curious now. How did that happen? They started charging for the refreshments? Was it a Reformed church? (I've belonged to a church - very much un-Reformed and anti-Sabbatarian - where, one Sunday a month there was soup for $2 a bowl.)

Is it possible you are building a hedge around the law? I'd advise that you tread carefully there.

As with many things you say, I agree with the basic principle, but not with the application. There are so many positive Sabbath activities that are by their nature social. Sharing a meal with neighbours, for example, or visiting those who are sick or in prison.

The answer to the temptation to have worldly discussions on the Lord’s Day is not to hide under a rock unless in the called Corporate Worship Service. Rather it should be to strive and pray for the HS’s help to change and help you have Godly conversations on the Lord’s Day with all whom you cross paths.

Admittedly this is a hard thing. Often during hunting and football season that is the first question out of someone else’s mouth to me (or about work). The temptation to talk about vocation is often one I fall into. Now I know this is not willful and mostly due to people trying to break the ice who are not the best conversationalist, but this is a temptation for us all. I try my best to combat this by asking questions dealing with spiritual matters.

Like other things we try to be obedient to for the first time, there is a season of awkwardness. The answer is practice... and when we slip, then try again. At all times depending on Christ and his word.

It's not the coffee. It's the gathering. That's what provides the temptation. If a church meets every week after the service for a set time of socialising where refreshments are already being served then that provides an opportunity for other things to be included. All it takes is someone to suggest it and unfortunately in many churches no-one would have arguments against it. I'm talking about broad churches here. I grew up in a Church of Scotland church. But even if it is unlikely in solidly reformed churches, many things which were unlikely in such churches were eventually adopted so we should be as careful as possible.

And again it's not the talking that's the problem (provided it's profitable), but where that happens and how. The church is not a place for socialising- even and especially on the Lord's Day. The conversation on the way out is cursory conversation as people are going to their cars. Now people will go to others' for lunch during the afternoon. That is an appropriate time and place for appropriate conversation. My concern here is what is happening at the church. On the Sabbath we should only be going out to go to church and then return home again. But I see no problem with fellowshipin homes during the afternoon. However this should be with those one was in worship with, as a continuation of the fellowship already enjoyed. There is of course visiting people in hospital as you mentioned which would be permissable.

As to conversation particularly we have many in our congregations who are not converted and for whom spiritual conversation is the last thing on their mind. The answer to this problem is to give them as little opportunity as possible to indulge in worldy conversation and lose any impressions they might have received from the sermon. A day spent amongst the Lord's people at home, or reading Christian books, is the best thing for them. Not opportunity to hang out with their mates and talk about school, work or sports.

 

[Pergamum]

It's not the coffee. It's the gathering. That's what provides the temptation. If a church meets every week after the service for a set time of socialising where refreshments are already being served then that provides an opportunity for other things to be included. All it takes is someone to suggest it and unfortunately in many churches no-one would have arguments against it. I'm talking about broad churches here. I grew up in a Church of Scotland church. But even if it is unlikely in solidly reformed churches, many things which were unlikely in such churches were eventually adopted so we should be as careful as possible.

And again it's not the talking that's the problem (provided it's profitable), but where that happens and how. The church is not a place for socialising- even and especially on the Lord's Day. The conversation on the way out is cursory conversation as people are going to their cars. Now people will go to others' for lunch during the afternoon. That is an appropriate time and place for appropriate conversation. My concern here is what is happening at the church. On the Sabbath we should only be going out to go to church and then return home again. But I see no problem with fellowshipin homes during the afternoon. However this should be with those one was in worship with, as a continuation of the fellowship already enjoyed. There is of course visiting people in hospital as you mentioned which would be permissable.

As to conversation particularly we have many in our congregations who are not converted and for whom spiritual conversation is the last thing on their mind. The answer to this problem is to give them as little opportunity as possible to indulge in worldy conversation and lose any impressions they might have received from the sermon. A day spent amongst the Lord's people at home, or reading Christian books, is the best thing for them. Not opportunity to hang out with their mates and talk about school, work or sports.

The church is not a place for socializing?

I bet your church is a cheery lot.

 

[alexandermsmith]

The church is not a place for socializing?

I bet your church is a cheery lot.

We are actually. But the purpose of a church building is to hold the solemn worship of God, not social gatherings.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

... The church is not a place for socialising ...

Can you please persuade me of this position with scripture?

This is most certainly NOT an intuitively obvious position to take when I read the accounts in the New Testament of Lord's Day gatherings as well as the recorded practices of the Primitive Church

 

[alexandermsmith]

Can you please persuade me of this position with scripture?

This is most certainly NOT an intuitively obvious position to take when I read the accounts in the New Testament of Lord's Day gatherings as well as the recorded practices of the Primitive Church

By church I mean the location where services are held. If services are held in people's homes that would certainly change the situation to a degree. The point is that when we meet for worship on the Lord's Day the purpose of meeting together is not socialising, but worship. Socialising is what is done on the other days of the week. Where are the examples of informal socialising on the Lord's Day?

 

[Grant]

informal socialising on the Lord's Day?

I do not think anyone is advocating informal socializing, but formal and intentional fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ and helping each other keep the full day in thought, word, and deed.

 

[Pergamum]

Alexander,

When it is good it is called "fellowshipping" but you want to put a bad spin on it, and so it suddenly becomes "socializing" as if it were a bad thing - funny how the subjective semantics works on this issue.

Please know that such excessive rigidity drives people away from the faith. You are not making your religion beautiful, but rather odious and to be avoided.

 

[Pergamum]

I do not think anyone is advocating informal socializing, but formal and intentional fellowship with brothers and sisters in Christ and helping each other keep the full day in thought, word, and deed.

That is a BIG fish! By the way. In your profile pic.

 

[Pergamum]

Caught on the 7th day of the week (being a bit cheeky).

As long as you did not buy or sell it.

 

[Afterthought]

There is something of a cultural difference here. The churches in my denomination in Scotland tend to just pack up and go right after the worship service. In America, it is common for people to stick around and (hopefully) engage in spiritually profitable conversation. Due to the distances and logistics of where everyone is at, the Sabbath service is one of only two times (prayer meeting is the other, although not everyone attends) most of us get to see each other, generally speaking, especially in Reformed churches where people are scattered around.

That said in our London congregation because of the great distances many in have to travel to get there, there are those who will stay at the church during the afternoon and they will all contribute to providing lunch. But this is due to the unique circumstances of that congregation

This is pretty common for churches in my denomination in America. Most people drive great distances. Sometimes, after the afternoon service, we will also gather in someone's home for a psalm sing and/or continuation of spiritual conversation.

 

[SeanPatrickCornell]

By church I mean the location where services are held. If services are held in people's homes that would certainly change the situation to a degree. The point is that when we meet for worship on the Lord's Day the purpose of meeting together is not socialising, but worship. Socialising is what is done on the other days of the week. Where are the examples of informal socialising on the Lord's Day?

I never said anything about "informal" socializing.