The warning passages

[fredtgreco]

[quote:433891171a="Scott Bushey"][quote:433891171a]

In the same way that the call of the gospel applies to the elect and non-elect, even though in that case also there is no doubt as to the outcome.[/quote:433891171a]

Fred,
But the call is an effectual element to the monergism of God. Men cannot be saved unless the call goes out..........In this case, the subject matter is ~falling away~. Someone is being warned of [i:433891171a]falling away[/i:433891171a]. The elect cannot surely fall away. The reprobate were never there; how can they fall away from someplace they have never truly aquired?

[quote:433891171a]For the non-elect, inability to keep from falling away does not elminate the responsibility not to fall away. Just like God commands [b:433891171a]all men[/b:433891171a] to repent, even though not all [i:433891171a]can[/i:433891171a]. For the elect, the warnings are a means used by God to effect the perseverance of the saints.[/quote:433891171a]

Hmmmmmm[/quote:433891171a]

The non-elect can fall away. This is referring not to falling away from election, or even salvation, but rather the covenant.

And the call of salvation goes out indiscriminately. So with the warnings.

 

[Scott Bushey]

So Fred, in essence, the warning is not really a warning at all.....I have to be honest with you. I don't buy that. The scriptures are very clear. It is not ambiguous or implying. They are in the emphatic.

Thinking............

 

[Scott Bushey]

The covenant only............okay let me ponder this. I will look at the passages and see if I get that from them.

let you know buddy.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:9ba5b4f6c9="Scott Bushey"]So Fred, in essence, the warning is not really a warning at all.....I have to be honest with you. I don't buy that. The scriptures are very clear. It is not ambiguous or implying. They are in the emphatic.

Thinking............[/quote:9ba5b4f6c9]

But Scott, what you have just said is EXACTLY what Erasmus said to Luther about the [b:9ba5b4f6c9]command[/b:9ba5b4f6c9] of God to repent and believe. Ability or inability has no bearing on a promise/command/warning.

 

[blhowes]

How can we know when somebody has fallen away in fulfillment of Hebrews 6? What actions or attitudes would characterize this kind of falling away?

If a covenant child rejects the beliefs of his parents (covenant teachings) and grows up and lives in rebellion, has he fallen away? If so, can he then repent?

 

[Scott Bushey]

[quote:fc4662243e="fredtgreco"][quote:fc4662243e="Scott Bushey"]So Fred, in essence, the warning is not really a warning at all.....I have to be honest with you. I don't buy that. The scriptures are very clear. It is not ambiguous or implying. They are in the emphatic.

Thinking............[/quote:fc4662243e]

But Scott, what you have just said is EXACTLY what Erasmus said to Luther about the [b:fc4662243e]command[/b:fc4662243e] of God to repent and believe. Ability or inability has no bearing on a promise/command/warning.[/quote:fc4662243e]

Fred,
I agree; ability or inability has no bearing. However, I believe this idea is only detouring that which I am pressing. I need to look at the scriptures again.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Sorry if I am not keeping up with you fell'as, but I am enjoyuing this thread.

So, may I ask...

Aren't there MANY who have intellectually accepted Christ but have not committed their hearts/lives to Him and that is who the warnings speak to? Especially those in Hebrews?

 

[blhowes]

While we're thinking about the Hebrews 6 passage, I was wondering if anybody has any strong inclinations about who Paul (or whoever) is writing to? I've read of two possibilities:

1. He's writing to Jewish Christians to combat the teachings of the Judaizers. Some of these Jewish Christians were desiring to go back to the animal sacrifice system.

2. During the early church, persecution was great and many martyrs went faithfully to their death. Some, who lacked such faith, denied the Lord to save their lives. The church had to address the issue of what to do with these 'deserters' who wanted to rejoin the church.

Hopefully this won't sidetrack the intent of Scott's thread, but may provide extra information that may be helpful in understanding the passage.

 

[kceaster]

As a parent, I realize that a warning with no teeth is no warning at all. If I threaten the rod, I better be certain that I will apply the rod if the condition exists.

Are we saying that God threatens with a false threatening? Does not the Bible show that where God threatens, He does the very thing He threatened?

Surely the people addressed in Hebrews 6:4-6 are the very ones from Matthew 7. Aren't these the people who are being addressed?

In Christ,

KC

 

[Saiph]

I believe the author is writing to hebrew Christians.

However not all hebrew Christians, or any other Christians for that matter are elect.

All biblical writers adress the congregation as they appear, ie. the confessing Church.

Many who confess are impostors of course. He is a sense is preaching to both the sheep in wolves clothing and the wolves in sheeps clothing.

One is to be warned unto repentance, the other warned unto further damnation.

 

[ReformedWretch]

[quote:10f9015d65="Saiph"]I believe the author is writing to hebrew Christians.

However not all hebrew Christians, or any other Christians for that matter are elect.

All biblical writers adress the congregation as they appear, ie. the confessing Church.

Many who confess are impostors of course. He is a sense is preaching to both the sheep in wolves clothing and the wolves in sheeps clothing.

One is to be warned unto repentance, the other warned unto further damnation.[/quote:10f9015d65]

Well said!

 

[fredtgreco]

Mark,

So I assume you are using Christian in the sense of "member of the visible church" ? I ask because many use it in the sense of "member of the invisible church" and might be confused by your remark.

 

[ReformedWretch]

lol...I am confused by the entire visable/invisable church altogether!

 

[Saiph]

In my book Christian always means "Professing" follower/disciple of Christ.

Never "elect". Since, none of us can know that anyway.

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:39cb2bf906="houseparent"]lol...I am confused by the entire visable/invisable church altogether![/quote:39cb2bf906]

Adam,

It's not that complex really.

Visible church = all [i:39cb2bf906]professing[/i:39cb2bf906] believers and their children.

Invisible church = all [i:39cb2bf906]actual[/i:39cb2bf906] and true believers, that is, the elect.

The visible church is that which we can see; hence the name. It is composed of wheat and chaff.

The invisible church is only known by God now. That is why it is "invisible."

But you can obviously see the importance of the distinction. If we didn't have it, we would be faced either with assuming everyone that makes a profession is saved, and that Christians can lose their salvation.

Does that make sense?

 

[ReformedWretch]

Sure does Fred! (or do you prefer Fredrick?)

You all have to understand that while I am THRILLED to have found this board and believers who profess what I have always FELT, I have to unlearn a lot of things.

[quote:ce72cf83e7]If we didn't have it, we would be faced either with assuming everyone that makes a profession is saved, and that Christians can lose their salvation.[/quote:ce72cf83e7]

That's pretty much what I am used to people professing! I always disagreed, but was painted as a judgmental Pharisee. As you can see, I am so relieved to be here!

 

[fredtgreco]

Adam,

I am very glad to be able to help in any way I can. In fact, that is probably the best thing about the board for me - to be able to teach others more from the Word.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Great!

So if I may side track this just a little?

It seems obvious then that NO church is full of the elect? All churches consist of the elect and the non-elect. But, what seems to be the issue with all the churches I have attended is that they refuse to accept that not all professing believers are believers just because of their profession.

Frustrating.

Is this an issue with anyone here and their church?

 

[fredtgreco]

[quote:b9f16dd150="houseparent"]Great!

So if I may side track this just a little?

It seems obvious then that NO church is full of the elect? All churches consist of the elect and the non-elect. But, what seems to be the issue with all the churches I have attended is that they refuse to accept that not all professing believers are believers just because of their profession.

Frustrating.

Is this an issue with anyone here and their church?[/quote:b9f16dd150]

Adam,

This does relate to the warning passages. Many churches "refuse to accept that not all professing believers are believers just because of their profession" (as you have insightfully pointed out) because they do not believe that ANY believers are elect that cannot fall away.

In short, most of American Christianity is Arminian. If you believe (as they do) that believers can believe, be saved, then disbelieve, be lost again, then believe again, and be saved again, etc. then you have no problem saying that everyone in the church is saved. If they do something or deny something, they "lose their salvation."

It is not Biblical, but that is what is out there.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Well, I have encountered MANY who believe we cannot lose our salvation. But, they then act as if our attitudes, behavior, and actions have NOTHING to do with our salvation.

This is why I have been called a Pahrisee! I insist that a follower of Christ should at least WANT to follow Him. I have lost many friends over this attitude.

 

[blhowes]

[quote:3e9655af18="fredtgreco"]The intended audience is the visible church. That is why they make sense. To see them as applying to the elect either brings about the error of the Federal Vision theology or makes them useless. This is yet another reason why the visible/invisible church distinction is crucial.[/quote:3e9655af18]

So far, nobody on the board has said that they believe that the Hebrews 6 passage applies to the elect. Is this just something that Arminians and the like would believe, or are there people on this board or in other reformed circles who would hold this view?

Its a difficult passage and its interesting to see how different groups handle it. I read one person online, an Arminian, who believed these people were Christians and it was a warning that they could lose their salvation. I read another, who is a dispensationalist, who thought they were tribulation saints - because all the things mentioned in the opening verses of the chapter were "OT language", and not for the church age.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Re-reading Hebrews 6 just now it seems to say this to me;

-Many have learned all that they can learn of Christ and his atoning work on the cross. They have experienced conviction from the Holy Spirit, fellowship of believers, etc.


-Knowing all that they rejected repentance. (re-crucifing Christ/treating Him contemptously).

-Those who have done this stand NO CHANCE at salvation. They have rejected Him with FULL knowledge and experience they rejected Christ. With full revelation they still rejected.

To me, these people are the swine we are not to cast our pearls before.

 

[wsw201]

As Fred has said, the warning passages are for the visible church, ie; all professing believers and their children. Whether elect or not all those in the Church need to be reminded to 'walk worthy of the calling with which you were called" (Eph 4:1). Paul's admonition is for everyone, but for the elect, consider WCF Chapt 18. 4 on Assurance:

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light:[15] yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived;[16] and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.[17]

And Chapt 17. 3 on Perseverance of the Saints:

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

And always remembering what Paul said to the Corinthians - "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified." (2 Cor 13:5)

 

[Ianterrell]

[quote:72e9e38ac4="houseparent"]Re-reading Hebrews 6 just now it seems to say this to me;

-Many have learned all that they can learn of Christ and his atoning work on the cross. They have experienced conviction from the Holy Spirit, fellowship of believers, etc.


-Knowing all that they rejected repentance. (re-crucifing Christ/treating Him contemptously).

-Those who have done this stand NO CHANCE at salvation. They have rejected Him with FULL knowledge and experience they rejected Christ. With full revelation they still rejected.

To me, these people are the swine we are not to cast our pearls before.[/quote:72e9e38ac4] :thumbup:

 

[Scott Bushey]

Wayne writes:
[quote:8b2e7045f3]As Fred has said, the warning passages are for the visible church, ie; all professing believers and their children. Whether elect or not all those in the Church need to be reminded to 'walk worthy of the calling with which you were called" (Eph 4:1). Paul's admonition is for everyone, but for the elect, consider WCF Chapt 18. 4 on Assurance:
[/quote:8b2e7045f3]

Wayne,
is this 'falling away' a falling away from salvation?

 

[Ranger]

[quote:fd8eff2f3a]-Knowing all that they rejected repentance. (re-crucifing Christ/treating Him contemptously).
[/quote:fd8eff2f3a]

Hebrews 6:4b "and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit."

I'm assuming this means that they were believers since we know that unbelievers cannot partake of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2), and we also know that the Holy Spirit seals us. This must refer to the elect. I don't understand how it cannot.[/quote]

 

[ReformedWretch]

Normally partaking of the Holy Spirit would point to believers, but in this instance the context of the passage must take presedence!

The context of vs 4-6 seems to exclude a refrence to believers.

Look for example to those who followed Christ and partook of His miracles yet still rejected Him in the end? Or how about Judas? He certainly wasn't in the elect, but who would have known this besides Christ? Apparently the other 11 thought he was fine as none of them knew who the betrayer would be.

 

[Ranger]

Only the elect can be enlightened - 2 Cor. 4:4-6, Hebrews 10:32
Only the elect can know the gift of God - Eph. 2:8

Admittedly an unbeliever can skim the word of God and receive nothing from it, or taste the powers of the age to come without being elect, but considering the three strong phrases in the previous verse about the Holy Spirit, enlightenment and the gift of God, the context clearly implies that these are further traits of a believer.

I think there has to be another explanation then assuming these are not elect simply because we know that the elect will persevere.

 

[blhowes]

[quote:edcd02f3ca="Ranger"]
I think there has to be another explanation then assuming these are not elect simply because we know that the elect will persevere.[/quote:edcd02f3ca]

What a whimp I am at times for not speaking up, but I must say that I agree with what you say. I don't know what the correct explanation is, but when I read this warning passage in context to see how it fits into the flow of the rest of the book, a warning to external covenant members falling away (ie., being damned without hope of repentance) seems not to fit with the flow.

After showing the superiority of Christ to the angels and to the house of Moses, the case is developed that Christ is our great high priest, after the order of Melchisedec. The author (I'll assume Paul) starts to build his case in Hebrews 5 that Jesus was called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec (verse 11). He continues the train of thought again after the warning passage, at the end of chapter 6. In chapter 5, just after he starts talking about Melchisedec, he stops the flow and admonishes the Hebrew Christians who, though by this time should have been teachers, they were in need of hearing again the first principles of the oracles of God. These aren't unsaved people, just people who should have been farther along in their walk then they were.

Hebrews 6 opens by giving those first principles that the Hebrew Christians needed to be reminded of, with the goal that they could leave (build upon) these principles and move on to perfection (maturity). Immediately after this admonition for these saints to mature, verse 4 says, 'For it is impossible...'.

The word [b:edcd02f3ca]For[/b:edcd02f3ca] provides a transition between the thoughts that went before to what follows. To me, saying that the warning passage is referring to unsaved members of a covenant community who fall away doesn't seem to do justice to the transition.

I agree with what's been said about God being able to use this warning passage to speak to the elect as well as the non-elect for different purposes. But I think that is the general nature of the scriptures and could be said about any verse in the Bible.

Someone might ask, 'Alright, hot shot, if you don't think it means this, then what do you think it means?', to which I'd respond while scratching my head, "Beats me". This may be one of those passages that Peter spoke of,

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood...

one of those passages whose meaning doesn't just jump right out in an obvious manner. Since its not an easy passage to understand, I'm more comfortable just living with the uncertainty of its meaning than to accept an interpretation that resolves the tension, but doesn't seem to fit the flow of the book (as I understand it).

About all I can do is brainstorm and continue to compare the passage with other passages. One thought I've had is with regard to Hebrews 6:7,8.

Heb 6:7,8 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Whenever I read of something being rejected and cast into a fire, my first thought is a reference to something like the lake of fire where the multitudes of unbelievers will be cast. That's a valid thought and may very well be the intent of the passage. Verses 9 and 10 make me think there could be another possible interpretation.

Heb 6:9,10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Here, Paul makes mention of their works and their labor of love. With these works in mind, I don't think its too much of a jump to consider verses 7 and 8, where it talks about some plants thriving and other plants being burnt, in the same way as the passage in 1 Corinthians 3

1Co 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In both cases, its possible, some of the works remain and some burnt up, but the person still is saved.

This is just one brainstorming possibility that I've been considering. Does this raise difficulties? Sure, like what has that got to do with the impossibility of repentance mentioned in verse 4? I don't know. Another brainstorming idea is that the passage was directed at Hebrew Christians who believed the elementary principles, but wanted to follow the advice of the Judaizers and go back to the Jewish system of animal sacrifices. This may be the way the believers in Hebrews 5 had fallen behind where they should have been in their understanding and/or practices. The warning passage may be Paul's way of teaching the absurdity of doing such a thing.

Well, I'm glad I got that off my chest. Now at least its out in the open for others to tear apart.

Bob

PS. Sorry about the rant. I'll go back to my 'one-liner' mode now.

 

[wsw201]

[quote:a830f675a7="Scott Bushey"]Wayne writes:
[quote:a830f675a7]As Fred has said, the warning passages are for the visible church, ie; all professing believers and their children. Whether elect or not all those in the Church need to be reminded to 'walk worthy of the calling with which you were called" (Eph 4:1). Paul's admonition is for everyone, but for the elect, consider WCF Chapt 18. 4 on Assurance:
[/quote:a830f675a7]

Wayne,
is this 'falling away' a falling away from salvation?[/quote:a830f675a7]

Scott,

I think we can all agree that ultimately the elect can not "fall away" though as the WCF notes they can and probably will go through a number of trials and tribulations, but they will ultimately not fall away. Consider Peter's situation denying Christ but then repenting. I think we cannot discount the power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of believers and His ability to turn the heart back to God. For the reprobate, they were never saved to begin with.

To me this is why the WCF's distinction within the Church is important. When we consider that those in the visible church are those who make a profession and their children, election is not the immediate issue.