The warning passages

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Scott Bushey

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
The warning passages; who is this call to? The elect? The reprobate? It is a general call to the church; internal and external. The internal are the elect, correct? The external are the non elect; the reprobate.

In regards to the elect: They cannot fall away; they are sealed-right? How then can this call be to them?

In regards to the non elect: They have never been elect. Never been able to maintain themselves either way salvifically. They will always, ultimately fall away- right?

Who are the warning passages directed at and why?
 
I would assume that the passage is intended for the elect. My reasons would be:
1. The intended audience. 1 Peter's prologue says it is to the chosen, and I would assume the same group is implied with this letter.
2. The inability of the reprobate to understand Scripture. Without the Spirit, what good would it do to have specific Scriptures written for your warning, because you couldn't even understand those correctly.
3. They are called 'beloved'

Of course, the letter could be written for the elect to understand the warnings of the reprobate, but that seems to take the verse out of context from the passage. I think it has to be toward the elect.

With that said, I do not believe that the passage is salvific in nature. I think the purpose is to warn the church against false teachers who may lead them astray doctrinally. This particular warning seems to be falling away from steadfastness, and not salvation. If the goal is to grow in grace and knowledge as verse 18 states, then the believer must be assured of God's perseverance (i.e. verse 9), that he will be patient with them, desiring for them to become mature in their faith.
 
Scott,
I think this passage is primarily directed to the elect. I don't think its a warning about falling away from the faith, as losing one's salvation. I think its more of a warning for us to be careful not to be led away from sound doctrine by every wind of doctrine:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Its such a practical warning because it is so easy for us to be led astray from the stability of the scriptures by programs or trends in Christianity. Its so easy to go along with the crowd when it comes to evangelism methods, worship innovations, seeker sensitive hogwash, etc.
 
Bob,Ranger,
I removed the passage. My desire was not to exegete the passage but address the warning passages in general. Would you go back and readdreas the query again?
 
Scott,
Without focusing on particular passages, I may run the risk of giving a general answer that's way off base. But generally, I think the warning passages are directed at both the saved and the unsaved. For the saved, the warning brings us into self-examination and we are encouraged when when we see our lives are aligned with God's word. For the unsaved, the warning may be used by the Holy Spirit to make them realize they aren't right with God.

I think also the warning passages keep us from being complacent in our walk with the Lord and helps keep our Christianity as a present reality, rather than something we did in the past. So many people think that since they made a 'decision for Christ' umpteen years ago, that they're OK and they're on their way to heaven - making a decision is kind of like taking out fire insurance. You did it once, and now you've got nothing to worry about. I think the warning passages help us put our faith more in Jesus and what he did for us, instead of trusting in a decision that was made years ago.

Just some thoughts. What do you think about the warning passages? Are there certain warning passages that have caught your attention that prompted your question?
 
The intended audience is the visible church. That is why they make sense. To see them as applying to the elect either brings about the error of the Federal Vision theology or makes them useless.

This is yet another reason why the visible/invisible church distinction is crucial.
 
I'm sorry for exegeting the previously posted passage, but I'm with Bob on this and am vary wary of giving a general response towards warning passages since I am not sure which ones in particular you are aiming at. Some warn against false doctrines, some warn against falling back to the law, some warn against associating with idolaters, etc. Each should be carefully exegeted separately. But, generally I can say this:

1. All Scripture has the aim and intent of being heard and proclaimed by the elect. As you and I well know, the casual reader can look at Scripture and have it mean nothing without the Spirit of God in him. Therefore, the purpose of the passages must be for the elect.

2. The Scriptures could be used towards the reprobate for two primary reasons though. They could be part of the external call to the world, which some would argue 2 Peter 3:9 pictures. Or they could be used for the knowledge of the elect pertaining to those 'friends' they may have who are apparently reprobate.

Please correct me if I am still in error, but is this the type of response you are seeking?
 
Fred,
Could you please explain Federal Vision theology or post a link to somewhere that does, because I am completely unaware of what it means. Thanks!
 
Bob,
Reread my initial post, it clearly dilliniates my thoughts. The implication of the warning passages are specific; avoid this or that. Do this or that, lest you fall away, lest ye perish like the others.....See what I opened the thread with again. See if that clearifies where I am dropping my line and hook.
 
[quote:b2b7785bcc="Ranger"]Fred,
Could you please explain Federal Vision theology or post a link to somewhere that does, because I am completely unaware of what it means. Thanks![/quote:b2b7785bcc]

Kyle,

By federal vision theology I mean that position adopted by the "Auburn Four" (Doug Wilson, John Barach, Steve Wilkins and Steve Schlissel). They have basically done away with the visible/invisible church distinction.

A good place to start is on monergism.com, specifically on the New Perspective page:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/new_perspective.html

The Federal Vision is NOT the New Perspective, but they share some sympathies. The page I have given you has links regarding[color=darkblue:b2b7785bcc] Auburn Avenue Theology[/color:b2b7785bcc] that is another name for the Federal Vision.
 
Okay, thanks Fred, I think I understand what you are talking about now but will continue to research it. The argument is that our justification is through union (edited to not say "unity") with Christ and not substitutionally on each of our behalfs? Or is that more of the new perspective?

I have a professor who argues against Limited Atonement along these same lines of reasoning. He argues that Christ atoned for the sins of the world, but that only those who are united in Him partake of this atonement which was intended for the world. Another professor argues along the same lines in terms of predestination stating that Christ was predestined and our unity with him through latter faith, brings us into that predestination.
 
[quote:ee1f95f623="Scott Bushey"]Bob,
Reread my initial post, it clearly dilliniates my thoughts. The implication of the warning passages are specific; avoid this or that. Do this or that, lest you fall away, lest ye perish like the others.....See what I opened the thread with again. See if that clearifies where I am dropping my line and hook.[/quote:ee1f95f623]

Ok, don't reel your line in yet until I finish nibbling at the bait.

Its still difficult to comment about the 'falling away' passages in general, since I don't think all warnings imply perishing. For example, Gill comments on the falling away mentioned in the passage you originally posted (2 Peter 3:17):

[quote:ee1f95f623]
[b:ee1f95f623]fall from your own steadfastness[/b:ee1f95f623]; which was proper to them, and which, by the grace of God, they had, and retained, both in the faith of Christ and doctrine of the Gospel; for though the saints can never finally and totally fall into sin, or from the truth, yet they may fall from their steadfastness, both as to the exercise of the grace of faith, and as to their profession of the doctrine of faith; and to be fluctuating, hesitating, and doubting in either respect, must be very uncomfortable and dishonourable.[/quote:ee1f95f623]

Are you thinking more along the lines of the Romans 11 passage?
 
[quote:bea6aee449="fredtgreco"]The intended audience is the visible church. That is why they make sense. To see them as applying to the elect either brings about the error of the Federal Vision theology or makes them useless.

This is yet another reason why the visible/invisible church distinction is crucial.[/quote:bea6aee449]

:ditto: and :amen:

Ranger,

How do you define "unity with Christ"?
 
Those were the views of my profs, not me. They would identify union with Christ as our being completely united to Him where the Father does not even see us, but only sees Him. Our justification, atonement, etc. would all be only through what the Father sees in Him. Ultimately, the grace of God is reduced to the possibility of all of these things coming upon us if we, through faith, believe and are united to Christ.

Therefore, the cross in effect did very llittle. Christ's death was not substitutionary, but for Himself and we through union can partake. Christ saved nobody through the cross, but only made salvation possible if we are willing to have faith. Blah, blah, blah.
 
Kyle,

I think you mean "union with Chrict" not "unity." The latter would be some sort of Buddhism. :lol: Not being critical, just anticipating some help for others.
 
I think Fred is right - the audience is the visible church. I think it is also helpful to remember that the visible church contains people who have genuine saving faith, the elect, as well as people with "termporal faith" or what our confession calls "common operations of the Spirit" or something like that. Everyone in the visible church should take heed of the warnings, lest his faith not persevere and be found out to be mere temporal faith. God does not come down and tell the elect "you are part of my secret elect." We know our election through things like the promises of God, the fruit of the Spirit, and the like. The warning passages have this perspective, as should we.

Calvin describes this class of people in his comments on Hebrews 6 (a difficult warning passage):


[quote:585c5254dd]But here arises a new question, how can it be that he who has once made such a progress should afterwards fall away? For God, it may be said, calls none effectually but the elect, and Paul testifies that they are really his sons who are led by his Spirit, (Romans 8:14;) and he teaches us, that it is a sure pledge of adoption when Christ makes us partakers of his Spirit. The elect are also beyond the danger of finally falling away; for the Father who gave them to be preserved by Christ his Son is greater than all, and Christ promises to watch over them all so that none may perish. To all this I answer, That God indeed favors none but the elect alone with the Spirit of regeneration, and that by this they are distinguished from the reprobate; for they are renewed after his image and receive the earnest of the Spirit in hope of the future inheritance, and by the same Spirit the Gospel is sealed in their hearts. But I cannot admit that all this is any reason why he should not grant the reprobate also some taste of his grace, why he should not irradiate their minds with some sparks of his light, why he should not give them some perception of his goodness, and in some sort engrave his word on their hearts. Otherwise, where would be the [b:585c5254dd]temporal faith[/b:585c5254dd] mentioned by Mark 4:17? There is therefore some knowledge even in the reprobate, which afterwards vanishes away, either because it did not strike roots sufficiently deep, or because it withers, being choked up. [/quote:585c5254dd]

You might want to check out his complete comments on Hebrews 6 and the other warning passages, especially Mark 4.

Scott Roberts
 
[quote:bc1a2802e9="fredtgreco"]This is yet another reason why the visible/invisible church distinction is crucial.[/quote:bc1a2802e9]

Can you give an example of a warning passage that you think best illustrates this point?
 
I guess the visible church takes heed of the warnings as part of an external calling to repentance? But ultimately only through the Spirit can the elect understand the warnings? Is that what is being said?
 
Fred,
Assuredly, the writers of the new testament were familiar with the elective decree. They had to be; you make mention that the warning passages are intended for the visible church, i.e the non elect. Being well aware of Gods decree's and the doctrine of election, if you were one of the writers of the bible, why would you make this call? Doesn't it contradict your theology?
 
[quote:ccad9767e6="Scott Bushey"]Fred,
Assuredly, the writers of the new testament were familiar with the elective decree. They had to be; you make mention that the warning passages are intended for the visible church, i.e the non elect. Being well aware of Gods decree's and the doctrine of election, if you were one of the writers of the bible, why would you make this call? Doesn't it contradict your theology?[/quote:ccad9767e6]

Scott,

No. You misunderstand me. I say the [u:ccad9767e6]visible[/u:ccad9767e6] church. To quote the Confession:

[i:ccad9767e6]The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation. (WCF 25.2)[/i:ccad9767e6]

The visible church consists of both the elect and non-elect. That is why the warnings are addressed to the visible church. The warnings are there to warn church members not to rely on membership alone for salvation. There will be some who fall away from the visible church, because they were false professors. How do we know that we are not false professors? We heed the warning passages and by the grace of God show fruit.

So the warning is addressed to both elect and non-elect without distinction. In the same way, the external call of the gospel is addressed to both. Would we say that we should not issue the external (general) call because the non-elect will not heed it and because the elect always will have the internal efficacious call? No, of course not. Because the external call is the [b:ccad9767e6]divine, appointed means[/b:ccad9767e6] of effecting the internal call. So it is with the warning passages. They are the appointed means of God for separating the wheat from the chaff.
 
[quote:ea90dc1ee6="blhowes"][quote:ea90dc1ee6="fredtgreco"]This is yet another reason why the visible/invisible church distinction is crucial.[/quote:ea90dc1ee6]

Can you give an example of a warning passage that you think best illustrates this point?[/quote:ea90dc1ee6]

Here are two:

[quote:ea90dc1ee6]For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Hebrew 6:4-6)[/quote:ea90dc1ee6]

[quote:ea90dc1ee6]Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 Jn. 2:18-23) [/quote:ea90dc1ee6]

Notice how in the first passage, there are those who "taste," who experience the common operations of the Spirit (the Word, etc). Notice how in the second proof of the truth of the warning is seen in the inevitable results.

If we do not have a distinction between the visible and invisible church, these passages are nonsense. Do the elect fall away? Of course not. But then why the warning if none fall away? But if we see these passages addressed to a "mixed multitude" they make sense. The elect are being told, in essence, be on your guard, do not be proud, lest you fall. The non-elect are basically being told what will happen to them. Neither is given infallible assurance of which group they are in.
 
[quote:d94e83dbb4="fredtgreco"]
So the warning is addressed to both elect and non-elect without distinction. In the same way, the external call of the gospel is addressed to both. Would we say that we should not issue the external (general) call because the non-elect will not heed it and because the elect always will have the internal efficacious call? No, of course not. Because the external call is the [b:d94e83dbb4]divine, appointed means[/b:d94e83dbb4] of effecting the internal call. So it is with the warning passages. They are the appointed means of God for separating the wheat from the chaff.[/quote:d94e83dbb4]

Fred,

I agree completely with you point about the visible/invisible distinction. Certainly the warning passages are intended to separate wheat from chaff. But could there be a function for the for the elect themselves at the same time?

By the reasoning you have cited above regarding the external call, could we not say, by this same logic, that the warning passages are also the [b:d94e83dbb4]divine, appointed means[/b:d94e83dbb4] of effecting the perseverance of the saints? In other words, could we not also say that the warning of the Lord to persevere in the faith, or else be cut off, is the means by which he causes us to actually persevere in the faith? Need we necessarily take an incompatabilist view of the warning passages?
 
[quote:c65a784481]Neither is given infallible assurance of which group they are in.[/quote:c65a784481]

This is an important point. God's decrees of election are known with certainty only to Him. We can be assured of our election through the promises of God, the fruits of the Spirit, and the like. The warnings should stir us up to ensure that we do not have merely the common operations or the Spirit or mere Temporal Faith, which while it has some benefits, does not produce the real thing.

Scott
 
I don't believe this was answered:

In regards to the elect: They cannot fall away; they are sealed-right? How then can this call be to them?

In regards to the non elect: They have never been elect. Never been able to maintain themselves either way salvifically. They will always, ultimately fall away- right? How can this call then be to them?
 
I assume the elect can be in error and waste precious years...I suppose that's not a FULL answer but again, I assume that's part of it?
 
[quote:0b909bd53c="Scott Bushey"]I don't believe this was answered:

In regards to the elect: They cannot fall away; they are sealed-right? How then can this call be to them?

In regards to the non elect: They have never been elect. Never been able to maintain themselves either way salvifically. They will always, ultimately fall away- right? How can this call then be to them?[/quote:0b909bd53c]

In the same way that the call of the gospel applies to the elect and non-elect, even though in that case also there is no doubt as to the outcome.

For the non-elect, inability to keep from falling away does not elminate the responsibility not to fall away. Just like God commands [b:0b909bd53c]all men[/b:0b909bd53c] to repent, even though not all [i:0b909bd53c]can[/i:0b909bd53c]. For the elect, the warnings are a means used by God to effect the perseverance of the saints.
 
[quote:82ab7a7786]For the elect, the warnings are a means used by God to effect the perseverance of the saints.[/quote:82ab7a7786]

That's a very intresting take!

So God's word is used to keep us from falling away in some ways? And since the elect will delight in His word....

Very intresting!
 
[quote:c3abc724ee]

In the same way that the call of the gospel applies to the elect and non-elect, even though in that case also there is no doubt as to the outcome.[/quote:c3abc724ee]

Fred,
But the call is an effectual element to the monergism of God. Men cannot be saved unless the call goes out..........In this case, the subject matter is ~falling away~. Someone is being warned of [i:c3abc724ee]falling away[/i:c3abc724ee]. The elect cannot surely fall away. The reprobate were never there; how can they fall away from someplace they have never truly aquired?

[quote:c3abc724ee]For the non-elect, inability to keep from falling away does not elminate the responsibility not to fall away. Just like God commands [b:c3abc724ee]all men[/b:c3abc724ee] to repent, even though not all [i:c3abc724ee]can[/i:c3abc724ee]. For the elect, the warnings are a means used by God to effect the perseverance of the saints.[/quote:c3abc724ee]

Hmmmmmm
 
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