BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
I hate double posting
[Edited on 4-30-2006 by BaptistCanuk]
[Edited on 4-30-2006 by BaptistCanuk]
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Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Hold on a second here. Where does the BIBLE say it is a sin to misinterpret Scripture? We are told to study to show ourselves approved. That says nothing about it being a "sin" for misinterpreting it. If I'm going to sin by misinterpreting it then maybe I shouldn't read it and just leave it up to my pastor to preach it. Then it will be on his head if he gets it wrong, not mine. Sound like a plan?
I'm sorry but I just get very irritated when someone (even those who wrote confessions) presume to say that it is a SIN to misinterpret Scripture. We are human, we will make mistakes in interpretation. To say such a thing sounds cultic in itself.
Anyways, on to the topic. Dispensationalism is just another system of interpreting eschatology. Since people on all sides use Scripture to defend their position it is my opinion that we cannot be sure. We are to look for the Lord's return, not be "sure" of when it is going to be.
Brian,
What exactly do false teachers do?
2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.
Scott, false teachers teach falsely. And usually they are doing it on purpose. Notice the words "fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;...". That speaks of people knowing exactly what they are doing, which is a far cry in my opinion from someone who just makes a mistake. I would hate to have God tell me I am sinning because I believe in believer's baptism. I get believer's baptism from the Bible. How could I be sinning?
Originally posted by blhowes
That's a good question. Here are the scriptures sited in the catechism to support what they wrote. Maybe we can retrace their steps.Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Hold on a second here. Where does the BIBLE say it is a sin to misinterpret Scripture?
21. Eccl. 8:11; 9:3; Psa. ch. 39
22. Matt. 5:21-48
23. Ezek 13:22
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
"brian,
here's what you are essentially saying, as long as the teachers who teach error do not know it as error, then that is ok. Thats wrong; error is error. The bible is truth. If you get it wrong and teach error, you are a false teacher. As far as believers baptism goes, who said anything about that? Presbyterians believe in baptism of believers........."
Scott, I know it appears that I'm saying that but I'm not. Because I still say that we should strive to get the correct interpretation. However, it doesn't always happen. Unless Paul didn't mean it when he said "we see through a glass darkly". How else do you explain thousands of denominations all made up of people that love God and want to know His Word, yet believing in contradictory things?
Well, as far as I know, I was the first one to say anything about believer's baptism. My point was that I would hate for God to tell me I'm sinning because I believe in it. And with all due respect I don't see how Presbyterians can say they do believe in it. But that's another discussion.
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
So, everyone's right? No one is wrong and God grades on a curve because we all see 'dimly'???? Error is error, period. God will hold all of us responsible for the error we teach. The bible tells us to "'rightly' divide the word of truth"
Presbyterians baptise believers that express the need to be baptised based upon repentance and faith. This is no different; remember, I was a credo baptist prior to coming to a covenant understanding of the scriptures. In that regard, both camps do the same thing (sans the covenant premise).
I didn't say everyone is right. I didn't say God grades on a curve and it is unfair of you to say that. If it is wrong for me to ask sarcastic questions like that then it is wrong for you and everyone else as well. Did Paul say we see through a glass darkly or not? I know the Bible says to divide the Word rightly. Does divide mean interpret or something else?
I thought Presbyterians baptized babies. Babies aren't believers. I realize you were more of a baptist in the past. How do you know you have interpreted the Bible correctly now that you are a covenant theology believer?
If we can never be wrong in our interpretation of Scripture then why are there so many denominations? How do we know when we are wrong, and then how do we know we are finally right at some time?
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
So, everyone's right? No one is wrong and God grades on a curve because we all see 'dimly'???? Error is error, period. God will hold all of us responsible for the error we teach. The bible tells us to "'rightly' divide the word of truth"
Presbyterians baptise believers that express the need to be baptised based upon repentance and faith. This is no different; remember, I was a credo baptist prior to coming to a covenant understanding of the scriptures. In that regard, both camps do the same thing (sans the covenant premise).
I didn't say everyone is right. I didn't say God grades on a curve and it is unfair of you to say that. If it is wrong for me to ask sarcastic questions like that then it is wrong for you and everyone else as well. Did Paul say we see through a glass darkly or not? I know the Bible says to divide the Word rightly. Does divide mean interpret or something else?
I thought Presbyterians baptized babies. Babies aren't believers. I realize you were more of a baptist in the past. How do you know you have interpreted the Bible correctly now that you are a covenant theology believer?
If we can never be wrong in our interpretation of Scripture then why are there so many denominations? How do we know when we are wrong, and then how do we know we are finally right at some time?
Babies can't believe? Please explain how some babies are elect and go to heaven then. One MUST believe, right? This is an assertion you cannot prove! Why did Jesus say:
Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."
As well, every candidate for baptism in your church is presumed regenerate. Following your line of thinking, you shouldn't be baptising them either then.
From your perspective, no one can really know truth. We are all flying on the seat of our proverbial pants.
[Edited on 4-30-2006 by Scott Bushey]
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Originally posted by gwine
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Hold on a second here. Where does the BIBLE say it is a sin to misinterpret Scripture?
May I suggest the following?
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
How would it lead to their destruction unless it was a sin that did so?
But look at the words used. "Ignorant" and "unstable". Two words I wouldn't call someone who reverently reads the Bible and makes a mistake because "we see through a glass darkly". Also this would have to do with the Gospel I believe, not just anything. They twist the Gospel around to their own destruction. Not having the correct Gospel is what would lead to destruction.
If "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is a valid human concept how much more will God hold us accountable?Matthew 12
36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Originally posted by gwine
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Originally posted by gwine
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Hold on a second here. Where does the BIBLE say it is a sin to misinterpret Scripture?
May I suggest the following?
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
How would it lead to their destruction unless it was a sin that did so?
But look at the words used. "Ignorant" and "unstable". Two words I wouldn't call someone who reverently reads the Bible and makes a mistake because "we see through a glass darkly". Also this would have to do with the Gospel I believe, not just anything. They twist the Gospel around to their own destruction. Not having the correct Gospel is what would lead to destruction.
You asked where in the Bible it says that it is a sin to misinterpret Scripture, and these passages show that those who twist scripture are doing it to their own destruction. You didn't ask where in the Bible it says that it is a sin to "in good faith" misinterpret Scripture, and it really doesn't matter whether whether a person does something "in good faith." God holds everyone accountable for every thought and word and deed, whether they are a believer or an unbeliever - whether they do it in sincerity or not.
I repeat: "But look at the words used. "Ignorant" and "unstable". Two words I wouldn't call someone who reverently reads the Bible and makes a mistake because "we see through a glass darkly". Also this would have to do with the Gospel I believe, not just anything. They twist the Gospel around to their own destruction. Not having the correct Gospel is what would lead to destruction."
If "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is a valid human concept how much more will God hold us accountable?Matthew 12
36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
And this is about more than just the Gospel. Paul's letters talk about Christian living, Christian liberty, the righteousness of God, etc. Plus Peter is saying that that these ignorant and unstable people twist all of Scripture, not just Paul's. It is all of Scripture, not just the Gospel, that people are twisting.
Funny thing. I thought the only reason for someone's destruction was not believing the Gospel. It would then follow that the verse could be talking about those who "twist" the Gospel, thus their resulting destruction. I have a question. If the Church is always correct in it's interpretation (or the Confessions) and it is sin of the highest order to misinterpret, why in the world should I study the Bible at all? It is pointless, I can just take the Church at their word. Only problem is I don't know who to listen to.
No amount of studying would help though because I can't learn Scripture on my own. That would be "solo scriptura" and I have to take Church leaders and the people who wrote the Confessions at their word. So really, why study?
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Funny thing. I thought the only reason for someone's destruction was not believing the Gospel. It would then follow that the verse could be talking about those who "twist" the Gospel, thus their resulting destruction. I have a question. If the Church is always correct in it's interpretation (or the Confessions) and it is sin of the highest order to misinterpret, why in the world should I study the Bible at all? It is pointless, I can just take the Church at their word. Only problem is I don't know who to listen to.
No amount of studying would help though because I can't learn Scripture on my own. That would be "solo scriptura" and I have to take Church leaders and the people who wrote the Confessions at their word. So really, why study?
And I never said the Church is always correct. That is the error the Roman Catholic Church fell into, deciding that they held the only correct view. The Bereans were commended for searching the Scriptures daily and the Psalms speak volumes of meditating on the word. And Peter tells us to always be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in us.Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
Brian, I have tried to stay out this but I feel compelled to give my opinion.
If you or I teach something in scripture and we do so in error, we have sinned. It doesn't matter whether we did it in ignorance or on purpose. We have handled God's word incorrectly. This does not mean that we don't love God with a whole heart and that we approached the bible with less than complete reverence. We may have "bathed" the scriptures in prayer and read countless commentaries. But in the end, we are held responsible for handling the word of God (Jas. 3:1). Does God forgive this type of sin? Certainly! May God's discipline (to bring us back to right teaching) be less harsh, knowing our piety? Possibly. It may be a gentle correction from a trusted brother who shows us the right interpretation. That is quite different from the person who acts arrogantly and bends the scriptures to suit his own desires.
I see what you are saying. I agree. I do have to ask though, how does Almighty God expect me to correctly interpret His Word all the time? I'm a sinful MAN. I don't know Greek and Hebrew. I'm not an "ordained" minister and have never been to Bible school. I felt enough pressure to get it right when I was told that we will make mistakes. Now I feel even more pressure.
This thread is on the "Sin of Dispensationalism." Some believe it is (a sin) , others do not and still some are not sure. But even if dispensationalism is a sin, it is not the only sin that can be commited against God's word. I dare say that John Calvin and Martin Luther misinterpreted part(s) of God's word and would be no better (or worse) than us in this regard. If nothing else we should take the warning of James seriously. All of us should "study to show ourselves approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Ti 2:15)
May God grant us a mind that will not be satisified until we know the truth of His word. May God grant us a heart that, once so convinced will proclaim it with the power that the Spirit gives us. May God grant us the attitude of true humility so that He gets all the glory.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Gerry, for one I did not shout. I bolded the letters to highlight MY quote so as to not confuse you or anybody else. If I had shouted, all the letters would have been capitalized. I do NOT appreciate being charged with a contentious spirit for debating something when I was the one who was attacked in the first place. Did I run away? Come on!
I never SAID that you said it was sin of the highest order. However, someone else DID say it to me and I was just repeating what they said.
I never SAID that you said the Church is always correct. However, others have given that impression and I was just repeating what they said.
So if you don't wish to interact with me for no reason at all, it's no skin off my back. I'll give you a reason...that being that I won't interact with you.
Originally posted by gwine
So sit back, take a deep breath, and enjoy life. There is too much good out there to have an angry mood all the time.
and our pastor would add:
Now may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
Originally posted by beej6
I thought 'solo Scriptura' was the Bible only, and no other authority, not even a (or the) church.
I see what you are saying. I agree. I do have to ask though, how does Almighty God expect me to correctly interpret His Word all the time? I'm a sinful MAN. I don't know Greek and Hebrew. I'm not an "ordained" minister and have never been to Bible school. I felt enough pressure to get it right when I was told that we will make mistakes. Now I feel even more pressure.
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
Brian, I have tried to stay out this but I feel compelled to give my opinion.
If you or I teach something in scripture and we do so in error, we have sinned. It doesn't matter whether we did it in ignorance or on purpose. We have handled God's word incorrectly. This does not mean that we don't love God with a whole heart and that we approached the bible with less than complete reverence. We may have "bathed" the scriptures in prayer and read countless commentaries. But in the end, we are held responsible for handling the word of God (Jas. 3:1). Does God forgive this type of sin? Certainly! May God's discipline (to bring us back to right teaching) be less harsh, knowing our piety? Possibly. It may be a gentle correction from a trusted brother who shows us the right interpretation. That is quite different from the person who acts arrogantly and bends the scriptures to suit his own desires.
This thread is on the "Sin of Dispensationalism." Some believe it is (a sin) , others do not and still some are not sure. But even if dispensationalism is a sin, it is not the only sin that can be commited against God's word. I dare say that John Calvin and Martin Luther misinterpreted part(s) of God's word and would be no better (or worse) than us in this regard. If nothing else we should take the warning of James seriously. All of us should "study to show ourselves approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Ti 2:15)
May God grant us a mind that will not be satisified until we know the truth of His word. May God grant us a heart that, once so convinced will proclaim it with the power that the Spirit gives us. May God grant us the attitude of true humility so that He gets all the glory.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
I see what you are saying. I agree. I do have to ask though, how does Almighty God expect me to correctly interpret His Word all the time? I'm a sinful MAN. I don't know Greek and Hebrew. I'm not an "ordained" minister and have never been to Bible school. I felt enough pressure to get it right when I was told that we will make mistakes. Now I feel even more pressure.
Brian, first...relax my brother. Take a deep breath and do not worry. Let me wax pastoral here and try to provide some thoughts that (I pray) will comfort your heart.
Thank you for your thoughts and prayer. Much help.
In my previous post I was referring to teachers of the word. It is a tremendous responsibility to teach God's word. I would caution anyone who does not have adequate training, the ability to teach and the passion to teach to avoid exposing themselves to the judgment that comes from incorrect teaching. I encourage you to place yourself under the authority of your pastor and elders. If you are desirous of teaching, let them know. Ask how they may support you in this area. Not all teachers are going to preach from a pulpit. You're a baptist (like me). If you have the desire and the ability there are avenues such as Sunday school. I happen to believe that even a Sunday school teacher needs to be tested, but that determination would the responsibility of your pastor and elders.
Yes, I agree it is a tremendous responsibility to teach the Word of God. And I want to teach the truth; I don't want to anywhere near being a false teacher. However, I am afraid that I would get something wrong in my interpretation of Scripture and thus be a false teacher. I do want to be a teacher some day but right now I couldn't be.
Your pastor and elders have a responsibility to God for correctly dividing the word of truth. They will give account. That is why I encourage you to place yourself under their authority and guidance. Timothy was ordained to ministry (1 Ti. 4:14). Likewise he was charged by Paul to teach others. 2 Timothy 2:2 2 And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. The scriptural model is clear. We are to be taught by those who are apt to teach. Paul taught Timothy, Timothy was ordained (by the church) and Timothy was to teach faithful men.
Brian, is it your desire to teach? If so, come under the authority of your church. God has raised these men up for such a purpose as this. Pray for them just as often as you pray for yourself. It is a good practice. Read and study the scriptures yourself. Consider formal biblical education. If you cannot attend a brick and mortar school consider other avenues such as distance learning. Above all, have patience.
Yes, I want to teach. I am under the authority of my church, though I don't agree with everything there. I believe we should have communion every week. I try to always pray for my church leaders too. I haven't always but I am doing it more now. Right now I am reading through the whole Bible to get familiar with things that I don't know and then will do more in-depth study. I would love to get a biblical education. I took a couple of courses in the past through our church institute; courses in world religions, catholicism, and spiritual gifts. I will get back to that.
May God bless you and give you clarity of mind on this issue.
Thank you brother. God bless you too.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
Originally posted by kceaster
I didn't vote, but here's my meager offering.
Sin, by the Westminsterian definition, is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God.
I would say, even though I may have Westminster on my side, that I sin in regards to Scripture every single day. Even if I interpret something rightly, I may sin just because I'm proud of myself.
The point I'm trying to make is that we all sin according to the Scriptures and in our interpretation of them. I'm not saying by this admission that we should all just quit trying. But I do think that we need to be careful to cast the first stone. I'm sure that until the day we die will will be seeing things differently when we read the Scriptures. By virtue of our fallenness in our hearts and minds, we do not understand the Scriptures as we ought. And if we think that we understand the way we ought, we need to think again because even if we interpret it rightly, it is for naught if we don't apply it correctly.
We need to correct errors, no doubt about that. But when a a man prays, covenant theologian, Dispensationalist, or someone in between, he should ask for God's forgiveness for his sins. Because we each do sin every day in thought, word, and deed.
I don't think we should get into some kind of self-righteous contest when it comes to this. If you're right, thank God, because He made you that way. But we shouldn't think that just because we're orthodox, we don't sin in connection with the Scriptures.
In Christ,
KC
Originally posted by Wannabee
Originally posted by kceaster
I didn't vote, but here's my meager offering.
Sin, by the Westminsterian definition, is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God.
I would say, even though I may have Westminster on my side, that I sin in regards to Scripture every single day. Even if I interpret something rightly, I may sin just because I'm proud of myself.
The point I'm trying to make is that we all sin according to the Scriptures and in our interpretation of them. I'm not saying by this admission that we should all just quit trying. But I do think that we need to be careful to cast the first stone. I'm sure that until the day we die will will be seeing things differently when we read the Scriptures. By virtue of our fallenness in our hearts and minds, we do not understand the Scriptures as we ought. And if we think that we understand the way we ought, we need to think again because even if we interpret it rightly, it is for naught if we don't apply it correctly.
We need to correct errors, no doubt about that. But when a a man prays, covenant theologian, Dispensationalist, or someone in between, he should ask for God's forgiveness for his sins. Because we each do sin every day in thought, word, and deed.
I don't think we should get into some kind of self-righteous contest when it comes to this. If you're right, thank God, because He made you that way. But we shouldn't think that just because we're orthodox, we don't sin in connection with the Scriptures.
In Christ,
KC
Well said Kevin. That's probably about the most productive post on this thread; at least from the perspective of a dispensantalist (or is it "covensationalist?"
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
Originally posted by joshua
Bill, there are several different "positions", if you will:
Classical Dispensationalism
Progressive Dispensationalism
Covenant Theology
New Covenant Theology (and within this group there are variations, some being more extreme, some largely dissenting from the extremes)
Doesn't P.D. still believe ina pre-mil rapture? I believe it does. I don't. I don't know much about N.C.T.