BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
I hate double posting 
[Edited on 4-30-2006 by BaptistCanuk]
[Edited on 4-30-2006 by BaptistCanuk]
The Sin of Dispensationalism
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by BaptistCanuk
Hold on a second here. Where does the BIBLE say it is a sin to misinterpret Scripture? We are told to study to show ourselves approved. That says nothing about it being a "sin" for misinterpreting it. If I'm going to sin by misinterpreting it then maybe I shouldn't read it and just leave it up to my pastor to preach it. Then it will be on his head if he gets it wrong, not mine. Sound like a plan?
I'm sorry but I just get very irritated when someone (even those who wrote confessions) presume to say that it is a SIN to misinterpret Scripture. We are human, we will make mistakes in interpretation. To say such a thing sounds cultic in itself.
Anyways, on to the topic. Dispensationalism is just another system of interpreting eschatology. Since people on all sides use Scripture to defend their position it is my opinion that we cannot be sure. We are to look for the Lord's return, not be "sure" of when it is going to be.
Brian,
What exactly do false teachers do?
2Pe 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.
Scott, false teachers teach falsely. And usually they are doing it on purpose. Notice the words "fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;...". That speaks of people knowing exactly what they are doing, which is a far cry in my opinion from someone who just makes a mistake. I would hate to have God tell me I am sinning because I believe in believer's baptism. I get believer's baptism from the Bible. How could I be sinning?
brian,
here's what you are essentially saying, as long as the teachers who teach error do not know it as error, then that is ok. Thats wrong; error is error. The bible is truth. If you get it wrong and teach error, you are a false teacher. Now keep in mind, when I mention false teachers, I am speaking of those whom misrepresent the main tenets, i.e. things that effect the trinity, who God is, who Christ is and what He accomplished and how salvation comes to men.As far as believers baptism goes, who said anything about that? Presbyterians believe in baptism of believers.........
[Edited on 4-30-2006 by Scott Bushey]
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Thank you. I'm getting off here in a minute. Tired from a long day of work. I will check this out later.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
"brian,
here's what you are essentially saying, as long as the teachers who teach error do not know it as error, then that is ok. Thats wrong; error is error. The bible is truth. If you get it wrong and teach error, you are a false teacher. As far as believers baptism goes, who said anything about that? Presbyterians believe in baptism of believers........."
Scott, I know it appears that I'm saying that but I'm not. Because I still say that we should strive to get the correct interpretation. However, it doesn't always happen. Unless Paul didn't mean it when he said "we see through a glass darkly". How else do you explain thousands of denominations all made up of people that love God and want to know His Word, yet believing in contradictory things?
Well, as far as I know, I was the first one to say anything about believer's baptism. My point was that I would hate for God to tell me I'm sinning because I believe in it. And with all due respect I don't see how Presbyterians can say they do believe in it. But that's another discussion.
here's what you are essentially saying, as long as the teachers who teach error do not know it as error, then that is ok. Thats wrong; error is error. The bible is truth. If you get it wrong and teach error, you are a false teacher. As far as believers baptism goes, who said anything about that? Presbyterians believe in baptism of believers........."
Scott, I know it appears that I'm saying that but I'm not. Because I still say that we should strive to get the correct interpretation. However, it doesn't always happen. Unless Paul didn't mean it when he said "we see through a glass darkly". How else do you explain thousands of denominations all made up of people that love God and want to know His Word, yet believing in contradictory things?
Well, as far as I know, I was the first one to say anything about believer's baptism. My point was that I would hate for God to tell me I'm sinning because I believe in it. And with all due respect I don't see how Presbyterians can say they do believe in it. But that's another discussion.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
So, everyone's right? No one is wrong and God grades on a curve because we all see 'dimly'???? Error is error, period. God will hold all of us responsible for the error we teach. The bible tells us to "'rightly' divide the word of truth"
Presbyterians baptise believers that express the need to be baptised based upon repentance and faith. This is no different; remember, I was a credo baptist prior to coming to a covenant understanding of the scriptures. In that regard, both camps do the same thing (sans the covenant premise).
[Edited on 4-30-2006 by Scott Bushey]
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
So, everyone's right? No one is wrong and God grades on a curve because we all see 'dimly'???? Error is error, period. God will hold all of us responsible for the error we teach. The bible tells us to "'rightly' divide the word of truth"
Presbyterians baptise believers that express the need to be baptised based upon repentance and faith. This is no different; remember, I was a credo baptist prior to coming to a covenant understanding of the scriptures. In that regard, both camps do the same thing (sans the covenant premise).
I didn't say everyone is right. I didn't say God grades on a curve and it is unfair of you to say that. If it is wrong for me to ask sarcastic questions like that then it is wrong for you and everyone else as well. Did Paul say we see through a glass darkly or not? I know the Bible says to divide the Word rightly. Does divide mean interpret or something else?
I thought Presbyterians baptized babies. Babies aren't believers. I realize you were more of a baptist in the past. How do you know you have interpreted the Bible correctly now that you are a covenant theology believer?
If we can never be wrong in our interpretation of Scripture then why are there so many denominations? How do we know when we are wrong, and then how do we know we are finally right at some time?
Presbyterians baptise believers that express the need to be baptised based upon repentance and faith. This is no different; remember, I was a credo baptist prior to coming to a covenant understanding of the scriptures. In that regard, both camps do the same thing (sans the covenant premise).
I didn't say everyone is right. I didn't say God grades on a curve and it is unfair of you to say that. If it is wrong for me to ask sarcastic questions like that then it is wrong for you and everyone else as well. Did Paul say we see through a glass darkly or not? I know the Bible says to divide the Word rightly. Does divide mean interpret or something else?
I thought Presbyterians baptized babies. Babies aren't believers. I realize you were more of a baptist in the past. How do you know you have interpreted the Bible correctly now that you are a covenant theology believer?
If we can never be wrong in our interpretation of Scripture then why are there so many denominations? How do we know when we are wrong, and then how do we know we are finally right at some time?
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Babies can't believe? Please explain how some babies are elect and go to heaven then. One MUST believe, right? This is an assertion you cannot prove! Why did Jesus say:
Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."
As well, every candidate for baptism in your church is presumed regenerate. Following your line of thinking, you shouldn't be baptising them either then.
From your perspective, no one can really know truth. We are all flying on the seat of our proverbial pants.
You ask about denominationalism; The main tenents of the faith are there even though the denominational distinctives are present. So, the theology that makes all of us Christians is what unites us, not divide.
[Edited on 4-30-2006 by Scott Bushey]
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Babies cannot believe. It is an assertion I CAN prove because we aren't told in Scripture that they can believe. The reason God saves them is of His own grace and mercy.
Of course we would baptize adults. They have made a profession of faith. Why wouldn't we?
Your last statement is untrue and unfair. I did not say that no one can realy know truth. But Paul said "we see through a glass darkly" or did he not?
I am seeing a lot of "you said this, or you believe this..." on here without one ounce of proof to back it up. I'm getting tired of seeing it too.
Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
It looks as if Christ disagrees with you.
Scripture says that babies can't believe? Please enlighten me.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by Scott Bushey]
Scripture says that babies can't believe? Please enlighten me.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by Scott Bushey]
gwine
Puritan Board Sophomore
You asked where in the Bible it says that it is a sin to misinterpret Scripture, and these passages show that those who twist scripture are doing it to their own destruction. You didn't ask where in the Bible it says that it is a sin to "in good faith" misinterpret Scripture, and it really doesn't matter whether whether a person does something "in good faith." God holds everyone accountable for every thought and word and deed, whether they are a believer or an unbeliever - whether they do it in sincerity or not.
If "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is a valid human concept how much more will God hold us accountable?
And this is about more than just the Gospel. Paul's letters talk about Christian living, Christian liberty, the righteousness of God, etc. Plus Peter is saying that that these ignorant and unstable people twist all of Scripture, not just Paul's. It is all of Scripture, not just the Gospel, that people are twisting.
caddy
Puritan Board Senior
This can be a little confusing. I believed for years that Dispensationalism was correct. I looked at some of the best of what that scholarship had to offer concerning the doctrine. I knew of the other doctrines, but obvously, I knew I could not do an exhaustive study on every subject and theme in the Bible. I have since been corrected in my error, but do I believe that I was in sin when I held to this doctrine? Some here would say yes, but, I would beg to differ. We are all limited in the abilities that God gives us and each of us are still tainted with a sin nature that we struggle with and that continues to cloud our mind's at times. Our minds are not in perfect. We can only know that if we walk in the light that God will eventually grow us to perfection, but that will NOT come in this life. At times like this, we need to be reminded of 1 Cor 13. Our Doctrine will not always match the Love we have in our Hearts for Christ. I believe He forgives us as we continue to grown in Him. He forgives us of the sins of Omission and Commission until we are pefected in Him. I am so thankful for Reformed Doctrines because I believe they are as close to interpreting the Word of God as anything I have known in the past, but you know what, I am still learning and growing. I believe I still have many of God's truths to learn. It is my hope that I do not hold to any great Doctrinal errors, but I do believe I can occassional be wrong about an interpretation on something in God's word. I want to live like a Berean and study like a Berean, but I still have to contend with the sin that can and does cloud my thinking and interpretaion from time to time.
Just my 2 cents.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by caddy]
Just my 2 cents.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by caddy]
turmeric
Megerator
The problem here may be the definition of sin we are unconsciously operating with; I don't believe too many dispensationalists set out to deliberately violate the will of God, i.e. committing a deliberate act of sin, but there is sin in us at all times, which is, among other things, an attitude of willful ignorance. I think these people's ignorance is sinful, though not thought out; I also think everyone sins in this sort of way in one area or another.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Scott, you said "You ask about denominationalism; The main tenents of the faith are there even though the denominational distinctives are present. So, the theology that makes all of us Christians is what unites us, not divide."
That's exactly what I was getting at. And I said something along that line somewhere, that the Church all believes in the same thing on the important issues; but the in-house debates (secondary issues) they differ and that's ok. But then some of you say now, that dispensationalism is sin and misinterpretation is sin of the highest order. Therefore, the whole Church is in sin because the whole Church has different interpretations of things (mind you, secondary issues but you see the point).
It does not matter that we are united on the main issues (or you guys would have agreed with me when I said that). What matters is almost the whole Church is divided on secondary issues because of misinterpretation and misinterpretation is sin of the highest order.
That's exactly what I was getting at. And I said something along that line somewhere, that the Church all believes in the same thing on the important issues; but the in-house debates (secondary issues) they differ and that's ok. But then some of you say now, that dispensationalism is sin and misinterpretation is sin of the highest order. Therefore, the whole Church is in sin because the whole Church has different interpretations of things (mind you, secondary issues but you see the point).
It does not matter that we are united on the main issues (or you guys would have agreed with me when I said that). What matters is almost the whole Church is divided on secondary issues because of misinterpretation and misinterpretation is sin of the highest order.
gwine
Puritan Board Sophomore
You don't have to shout. I may be hard of hearing but you're coming in fine.
I never said that it was a sin of the highest order, but I do believe that it is a sin, even to misinterpret the Scriptures in good faith. Anything we do is sin if our heart is wrong.
And I never said the Church is always correct. That is the error the Roman Catholic Church fell into, deciding that they held the only correct view. The Bereans were commended for searching the Scriptures daily and the Psalms speak volumes of meditating on the word. And Peter tells us to always be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in us.
And a friendly word of advice, my friend. Your contentious spirit does not make me desire to continue to interact with you. Perhaps others enjoy this sort of thing, but I am done.
pax vobiscum
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Gerry, for one I did not shout. I bolded the letters to highlight MY quote so as to not confuse you or anybody else. If I had shouted, all the letters would have been capitalized. I do NOT appreciate being charged with a contentious spirit for debating something when I was the one who was attacked in the first place. Did I run away? Come on!
I never SAID that you said it was sin of the highest order. However, someone else DID say it to me and I was just repeating what they said.
I never SAID that you said the Church is always correct. However, others have given that impression and I was just repeating what they said.
So if you don't wish to interact with me for no reason at all, it's no skin off my back. I'll give you a reason...that being that I won't interact with you.
I never SAID that you said it was sin of the highest order. However, someone else DID say it to me and I was just repeating what they said.
I never SAID that you said the Church is always correct. However, others have given that impression and I was just repeating what they said.
So if you don't wish to interact with me for no reason at all, it's no skin off my back. I'll give you a reason...that being that I won't interact with you.
Brian, I have tried to stay out this but I feel compelled to give my opinion.
If you or I teach something in scripture and we do so in error, we have sinned. It doesn't matter whether we did it in ignorance or on purpose. We have handled God's word incorrectly. This does not mean that we don't love God with a whole heart and that we approached the bible with less than complete reverence. We may have "bathed" the scriptures in prayer and read countless commentaries. But in the end, we are held responsible for handling the word of God (Jas. 3:1). Does God forgive this type of sin? Certainly! May God's discipline (to bring us back to right teaching) be less harsh, knowing our piety? Possibly. It may be a gentle correction from a trusted brother who shows us the right interpretation. That is quite different from the person who acts arrogantly and bends the scriptures to suit his own desires.
This thread is on the "Sin of Dispensationalism." Some believe it is (a sin) , others do not and still some are not sure. But even if dispensationalism is a sin, it is not the only sin that can be commited against God's word. I dare say that John Calvin and Martin Luther misinterpreted part(s) of God's word and would be no better (or worse) than us in this regard. If nothing else we should take the warning of James seriously. All of us should "study to show ourselves approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Ti 2:15)
May God grant us a mind that will not be satisified until we know the truth of His word. May God grant us a heart that, once so convinced will proclaim it with the power that the Spirit gives us. May God grant us the attitude of true humility so that He gets all the glory.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
If you or I teach something in scripture and we do so in error, we have sinned. It doesn't matter whether we did it in ignorance or on purpose. We have handled God's word incorrectly. This does not mean that we don't love God with a whole heart and that we approached the bible with less than complete reverence. We may have "bathed" the scriptures in prayer and read countless commentaries. But in the end, we are held responsible for handling the word of God (Jas. 3:1). Does God forgive this type of sin? Certainly! May God's discipline (to bring us back to right teaching) be less harsh, knowing our piety? Possibly. It may be a gentle correction from a trusted brother who shows us the right interpretation. That is quite different from the person who acts arrogantly and bends the scriptures to suit his own desires.
This thread is on the "Sin of Dispensationalism." Some believe it is (a sin) , others do not and still some are not sure. But even if dispensationalism is a sin, it is not the only sin that can be commited against God's word. I dare say that John Calvin and Martin Luther misinterpreted part(s) of God's word and would be no better (or worse) than us in this regard. If nothing else we should take the warning of James seriously. All of us should "study to show ourselves approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Ti 2:15)
May God grant us a mind that will not be satisified until we know the truth of His word. May God grant us a heart that, once so convinced will proclaim it with the power that the Spirit gives us. May God grant us the attitude of true humility so that He gets all the glory.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
Brian, I have tried to stay out this but I feel compelled to give my opinion.
If you or I teach something in scripture and we do so in error, we have sinned. It doesn't matter whether we did it in ignorance or on purpose. We have handled God's word incorrectly. This does not mean that we don't love God with a whole heart and that we approached the bible with less than complete reverence. We may have "bathed" the scriptures in prayer and read countless commentaries. But in the end, we are held responsible for handling the word of God (Jas. 3:1). Does God forgive this type of sin? Certainly! May God's discipline (to bring us back to right teaching) be less harsh, knowing our piety? Possibly. It may be a gentle correction from a trusted brother who shows us the right interpretation. That is quite different from the person who acts arrogantly and bends the scriptures to suit his own desires.
I see what you are saying. I agree. I do have to ask though, how does Almighty God expect me to correctly interpret His Word all the time? I'm a sinful MAN. I don't know Greek and Hebrew. I'm not an "ordained" minister and have never been to Bible school. I felt enough pressure to get it right when I was told that we will make mistakes. Now I feel even more pressure.
This thread is on the "Sin of Dispensationalism." Some believe it is (a sin) , others do not and still some are not sure. But even if dispensationalism is a sin, it is not the only sin that can be commited against God's word. I dare say that John Calvin and Martin Luther misinterpreted part(s) of God's word and would be no better (or worse) than us in this regard. If nothing else we should take the warning of James seriously. All of us should "study to show ourselves approved unto God...rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Ti 2:15)
May God grant us a mind that will not be satisified until we know the truth of His word. May God grant us a heart that, once so convinced will proclaim it with the power that the Spirit gives us. May God grant us the attitude of true humility so that He gets all the glory.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
kceaster
Puritan Board Junior
I didn't vote, but here's my meager offering.
Sin, by the Westminsterian definition, is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God.
I would say, even though I may have Westminster on my side, that I sin in regards to Scripture every single day. Even if I interpret something rightly, I may sin just because I'm proud of myself.
The point I'm trying to make is that we all sin according to the Scriptures and in our interpretation of them. I'm not saying by this admission that we should all just quit trying. But I do think that we need to be careful to cast the first stone. I'm sure that until the day we die will will be seeing things differently when we read the Scriptures. By virtue of our fallenness in our hearts and minds, we do not understand the Scriptures as we ought. And if we think that we understand the way we ought, we need to think again because even if we interpret it rightly, it is for naught if we don't apply it correctly.
We need to correct errors, no doubt about that. But when a a man prays, covenant theologian, Dispensationalist, or someone in between, he should ask for God's forgiveness for his sins. Because we each do sin every day in thought, word, and deed.
I don't think we should get into some kind of self-righteous contest when it comes to this. If you're right, thank God, because He made you that way. But we shouldn't think that just because we're orthodox, we don't sin in connection with the Scriptures.
In Christ,
KC
Sin, by the Westminsterian definition, is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God.
I would say, even though I may have Westminster on my side, that I sin in regards to Scripture every single day. Even if I interpret something rightly, I may sin just because I'm proud of myself.
The point I'm trying to make is that we all sin according to the Scriptures and in our interpretation of them. I'm not saying by this admission that we should all just quit trying. But I do think that we need to be careful to cast the first stone. I'm sure that until the day we die will will be seeing things differently when we read the Scriptures. By virtue of our fallenness in our hearts and minds, we do not understand the Scriptures as we ought. And if we think that we understand the way we ought, we need to think again because even if we interpret it rightly, it is for naught if we don't apply it correctly.
We need to correct errors, no doubt about that. But when a a man prays, covenant theologian, Dispensationalist, or someone in between, he should ask for God's forgiveness for his sins. Because we each do sin every day in thought, word, and deed.
I don't think we should get into some kind of self-righteous contest when it comes to this. If you're right, thank God, because He made you that way. But we shouldn't think that just because we're orthodox, we don't sin in connection with the Scriptures.
In Christ,
KC
gwine
Puritan Board Sophomore
Forgive me, Brian, because my heart is not right toward you. But I will try again to put into words what my brain is thinking.
My comment on shouting was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, akin to the all caps of early computer days. Maybe you don't understand how to use the quote feature, so I will learn to ignore the all bold-face. It just stands out so, well, boldly.
And really, I have re-read the thread and I have not found where anyone has said that dispensationalism is a "great" sin, except for you claiming they have. And I have not found where anyone has implied that we should let the Church do all our thinking, except for you. So if you would be so kind as to show me who said those things, I would appreciate it.
But I really don't know what else to say about my charge that you have a contentious spirit. I wish I could change that (my charge), but you are the one with the word "angry" for a mood. I did give you a reason why I do not wish to continue debating, and I wish I could feel different about it, but debating is not my forte and theologically I am still in the shallow end of the wading pool. I gave Scripture to show support of what I believe and I don't know how else to respond to your answer.
So sit back, take a deep breath, and enjoy life. There is too much good out there to have an angry mood all the time.
and our pastor would add:
Now may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Originally posted by gwine
So sit back, take a deep breath, and enjoy life. There is too much good out there to have an angry mood all the time.
and our pastor would add:
Now may the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen.
Excellent advice for everyone. A gentle answer turns away wrath...and we should all keep in mind whether the words we want to choose are to the betterment of the conversation or not.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Gerry, thank you for your post. I forgive you. I ask you to forgive me for the response I posted.
I know how to use quotes the first few times but when it gets very large I try to avoid it as it's confusing. Like I said, I bolded it so as to not confuse you or anyone else and I also wanted to emphasize what I had said. But I was in no way shouting at you. Regarding my "Mood" at the moment, I switched it to "Angry" after you said I had a contentious spirit. In my eyes, that was straight out of left field and I had no idea why you were saying that. But you did apologize and I accept it.
As for dispensationalism being a sin of the highest order and how we have to trust everything the Church says because they can't be wrong and we can't be right (that would be solo scriptura), well both of those have been on the message board in the last two days. I may find them for you and I may not. The point is, they are here. I'm not a liar.
Thank you for the exhortation at the end of your post. God bless.
Don't worry about debating, if you don't want to that's fine. I don't always want to, and I'm far from a theological giant myself. Very far.
I know how to use quotes the first few times but when it gets very large I try to avoid it as it's confusing. Like I said, I bolded it so as to not confuse you or anyone else and I also wanted to emphasize what I had said. But I was in no way shouting at you. Regarding my "Mood" at the moment, I switched it to "Angry" after you said I had a contentious spirit. In my eyes, that was straight out of left field and I had no idea why you were saying that. But you did apologize and I accept it.
As for dispensationalism being a sin of the highest order and how we have to trust everything the Church says because they can't be wrong and we can't be right (that would be solo scriptura), well both of those have been on the message board in the last two days. I may find them for you and I may not. The point is, they are here. I'm not a liar.
Thank you for the exhortation at the end of your post. God bless.
Don't worry about debating, if you don't want to that's fine. I don't always want to, and I'm far from a theological giant myself. Very far.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
It would be the Bible only but under the teaching of the Church. We are just poor souls who cannot know the truth apart from the Church or the confessions.
Brian, first...relax my brother. Take a deep breath and do not worry. Let me wax pastoral here and try to provide some thoughts that (I pray) will comfort your heart.
In my previous post I was referring to teachers of the word. It is a tremendous responsibility to teach God's word. I would caution anyone who does not have adequate training, the ability to teach and the passion to teach to avoid exposing themselves to the judgment that comes from incorrect teaching. I encourage you to place yourself under the authority of your pastor and elders. If you are desirous of teaching, let them know. Ask how they may support you in this area. Not all teachers are going to preach from a pulpit. You're a baptist (like me). If you have the desire and the ability there are avenues such as Sunday school. I happen to believe that even a Sunday school teacher needs to be tested, but that determination would the responsibility of your pastor and elders.
Your pastor and elders have a responsibility to God for correctly dividing the word of truth. They will give account. That is why I encourage you to place yourself under their authority and guidance. Timothy was ordained to ministry (1 Ti. 4:14). Likewise he was charged by Paul to teach others. 2 Timothy 2:2 2 And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. The scriptural model is clear. We are to be taught by those who are apt to teach. Paul taught Timothy, Timothy was ordained (by the church) and Timothy was to teach faithful men.
Brian, is it your desire to teach? If so, come under the authority of your church. God has raised these men up for such a purpose as this. Pray for them just as often as you pray for yourself. It is a good practice. Read and study the scriptures yourself. Consider formal biblical education. If you cannot attend a brick and mortar school consider other avenues such as distance learning. Above all, have patience.
May God bless you and give you clarity of mind on this issue.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by BaptistInCrisis
Brian, first...relax my brother. Take a deep breath and do not worry. Let me wax pastoral here and try to provide some thoughts that (I pray) will comfort your heart.
Thank you for your thoughts and prayer. Much help.
In my previous post I was referring to teachers of the word. It is a tremendous responsibility to teach God's word. I would caution anyone who does not have adequate training, the ability to teach and the passion to teach to avoid exposing themselves to the judgment that comes from incorrect teaching. I encourage you to place yourself under the authority of your pastor and elders. If you are desirous of teaching, let them know. Ask how they may support you in this area. Not all teachers are going to preach from a pulpit. You're a baptist (like me). If you have the desire and the ability there are avenues such as Sunday school. I happen to believe that even a Sunday school teacher needs to be tested, but that determination would the responsibility of your pastor and elders.
Yes, I agree it is a tremendous responsibility to teach the Word of God. And I want to teach the truth; I don't want to anywhere near being a false teacher. However, I am afraid that I would get something wrong in my interpretation of Scripture and thus be a false teacher. I do want to be a teacher some day but right now I couldn't be.
Your pastor and elders have a responsibility to God for correctly dividing the word of truth. They will give account. That is why I encourage you to place yourself under their authority and guidance. Timothy was ordained to ministry (1 Ti. 4:14). Likewise he was charged by Paul to teach others. 2 Timothy 2:2 2 And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. The scriptural model is clear. We are to be taught by those who are apt to teach. Paul taught Timothy, Timothy was ordained (by the church) and Timothy was to teach faithful men.
Brian, is it your desire to teach? If so, come under the authority of your church. God has raised these men up for such a purpose as this. Pray for them just as often as you pray for yourself. It is a good practice. Read and study the scriptures yourself. Consider formal biblical education. If you cannot attend a brick and mortar school consider other avenues such as distance learning. Above all, have patience.
Yes, I want to teach. I am under the authority of my church, though I don't agree with everything there. I believe we should have communion every week. I try to always pray for my church leaders too. I haven't always but I am doing it more now. Right now I am reading through the whole Bible to get familiar with things that I don't know and then will do more in-depth study. I would love to get a biblical education. I took a couple of courses in the past through our church institute; courses in world religions, catholicism, and spiritual gifts. I will get back to that.
May God bless you and give you clarity of mind on this issue.
Thank you brother. God bless you too.
[Edited on 5-1-2006 by BaptistInCrisis]
Wannabee
Obi Wan Kenobi
Originally posted by kceaster
I didn't vote, but here's my meager offering.
Sin, by the Westminsterian definition, is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God.
I would say, even though I may have Westminster on my side, that I sin in regards to Scripture every single day. Even if I interpret something rightly, I may sin just because I'm proud of myself.
The point I'm trying to make is that we all sin according to the Scriptures and in our interpretation of them. I'm not saying by this admission that we should all just quit trying. But I do think that we need to be careful to cast the first stone. I'm sure that until the day we die will will be seeing things differently when we read the Scriptures. By virtue of our fallenness in our hearts and minds, we do not understand the Scriptures as we ought. And if we think that we understand the way we ought, we need to think again because even if we interpret it rightly, it is for naught if we don't apply it correctly.
We need to correct errors, no doubt about that. But when a a man prays, covenant theologian, Dispensationalist, or someone in between, he should ask for God's forgiveness for his sins. Because we each do sin every day in thought, word, and deed.
I don't think we should get into some kind of self-righteous contest when it comes to this. If you're right, thank God, because He made you that way. But we shouldn't think that just because we're orthodox, we don't sin in connection with the Scriptures.
In Christ,
KC
Well said Kevin. That's probably about the most productive post on this thread; at least from the perspective of a dispensantalist (or is it "covensationalist?"
Theoretical
Puritan Board Professor
Originally posted by Wannabee
Originally posted by kceaster
I didn't vote, but here's my meager offering.
Sin, by the Westminsterian definition, is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God.
I would say, even though I may have Westminster on my side, that I sin in regards to Scripture every single day. Even if I interpret something rightly, I may sin just because I'm proud of myself.
The point I'm trying to make is that we all sin according to the Scriptures and in our interpretation of them. I'm not saying by this admission that we should all just quit trying. But I do think that we need to be careful to cast the first stone. I'm sure that until the day we die will will be seeing things differently when we read the Scriptures. By virtue of our fallenness in our hearts and minds, we do not understand the Scriptures as we ought. And if we think that we understand the way we ought, we need to think again because even if we interpret it rightly, it is for naught if we don't apply it correctly.
We need to correct errors, no doubt about that. But when a a man prays, covenant theologian, Dispensationalist, or someone in between, he should ask for God's forgiveness for his sins. Because we each do sin every day in thought, word, and deed.
I don't think we should get into some kind of self-righteous contest when it comes to this. If you're right, thank God, because He made you that way. But we shouldn't think that just because we're orthodox, we don't sin in connection with the Scriptures.
In Christ,
KC
Well said Kevin. That's probably about the most productive post on this thread; at least from the perspective of a dispensantalist (or is it "covensationalist?"
I most definitely agree as to the content and the implications of it. A certain humility in dealing with non-teachers is definitely in order. With teachers and elders, there is a higher standard, and dispensationalism is a much more substantial error, especially if they embrace it wholeheartedly (particularly old guard Left Behind and Hal Lindsey-style dispensationalism, rather than more limited forms of it).
A lot of the approach also seems to rest on how actively the error is held. Mere unconscious error that is quickly self-corrected when the person is enlightened is a far less serious offense against God's truth than adamant insistence on false doctrine by a pastoral leader or even a knowledgable layman, for instance.
I would humbly suggest that these same principles Kevin describes in regard to Scripture interpretation apply for some other controversies (obviously interrelated), though of course, one can either tilt too much to leniency and doctinal impurity or to poisonous theological divisivenes. Reminders like these are always helpful.
I've definitely had my share of pettiness and a deep lack of humility in addressing my parents much more serious errors, for instance. Additionally, the way a person responds to theological and Biblical criticism is also a major component of the culpability of the person's sin in false doctrine. Grace does protect us against less severe errors, thankfully; otherwise, we'd be quite hopeless before God. A quest for the truth absolutely does matter though.
gregbed
Puritan Board Freshman
Looks like this question got forgotten in the heat. The answer is they're not sure. Here is a footnote from Detroit Baptist Seminary Journal (Vol 9) article on PD by a historical dispensationalist:
49. The question of the timing of the Rapture is, to some extent, left opened for discussion in progressive dispensationalism. Blaising and Bock, in an endnote regarding 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, say, "œDispensationalists have traditionally advocated pretribulationism"¦. The deliverance at the inception of the Day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5"¦would appear to be pretribulational" (Progressive Dispensationalism, p. 317, n. 15). Later, in a brief synopsis of the views of progressive dispensationalism, Bock suggests that, according to the new dispensationalism, "œlooking for the "˜blessed hope´ of Christ´s return is still a motivating feature for the believer´s walk with God, but some would be less confident about the ability to lay out a detailed scenario for its contemporary fulfillment" (Darrell Bock, "œCharting Dispensationalism," Christianity Today, 12 September 1994, p. 29). In fact, it is rather common in this movement to minimize the interpreter´s ability to correlate prophetic texts sufficiently enough to construe any structured, eschatological schematic of end-time events with which the interpreter can be very confident.
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