The remnant standing on a mound of compromised denoms - the path forward...

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BuddyOfDavidClarkson

Puritan Board Freshman
The last 10 years have sure been gut wrenching watching denom after denom fall. It can't come as a surprise that the PCA has been added to the heap since they shocked everyone a few years ago by hosting a Revoice conference. The seeds of their demise had already been sown.

This is a great podcast going into detail about the recent PCA overtures:



What is at the bottom of the depravity of our own country and of the denoms? A blind man could see it a mile away. The church has neglected to preach God's Law. As a result, even the churches can deliberate about a sodomite in the pulpit! We're in bad, bad shape. Here is a great message outlining the issue:



There is no path forward that doesn't start with God's Law. I'm not talking about reading a commandment each week - we're wayyyyyyy beyond that. I'm talking about preaching through the book of Deuteronomy and memorizing Psalm 119. 'Christians' are grossly ignorant of God's ethic and the church rolls are (obviously!) filled with 'members' who heard the glorious good news of the gospel without the context of their desperate situation regarding God's Law and as a result, the gospel came across like a Hallmark greeting card.


The Lord is in the process of sifting the rotten denom. Why?

Matt 5:-17-19
17 “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished! 19 Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


If neglecting one of the least commandments makes one least in the kingdom of heaven, what does the Lord think about denoms that neglect all of it!
 
I think we (the PCA) are certainly deserving of the current calamities. We have neglected many of the Lord’s commands and also failed to discipline those failures. Ever more disheartening is that much of our disobedience has become “The Law” and anyone questioning the norm is seen as a Pharisee even when simple asking “the BCO says this (xyz), but why do we do this (xyz)?”

I pray for reform.
 
I pray for reform.
Amen. Isaiah 64 is a passage that is so pertinent:

Oh, that You would rend the heavens!
That You would come down!
That the mountains might shake at Your presence—
As fire burns brushwood,
As fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!
When You did awesome things for which we did not look,
You came down,
The mountains shook at Your presence.
For since the beginning of the world
Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear,
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You,
Who acts for the one who waits for Him.
You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
And there is no one who calls on Your name,
Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us,
And have consumed us because of our iniquities.
But now, O Lord,
You are our Father;
We are the clay, and You our potter;
And all we are the work of Your hand.
Do not be furious, O Lord,
Nor remember iniquity forever;
Indeed, please look—we all are Your people!
Your holy cities are a wilderness,
Zion is a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
Our holy and beautiful temple,
Where our fathers praised You,
Is burned up with fire;
And all our pleasant things are laid waste.
Will You restrain Yourself because of these things, O Lord?
Will You hold Your peace, and afflict us very severely?
 
Unless there is fasting, mourning, and repentance I believe the trend will continue. We have become fat in feeding our bellies over and above feeding our souls. I hope this is a wake up call to our leaders. I fear many leaders who want to split off will do so and solely point the finger at the progressives, BUT we are all to blame. Even in the “conservative” bodies, the Lord’s Day get’s sacrificed to football worship, candle worship, and Orchestra Level ensembles that drowned the voice of the saints. Even in conservative bodies members are left on the roles undisciplined who’ve not passed through the doors in years.

I have often wondered, in my geographical area, if it would be better to join with a conservative Baptist congregation over the local PCA bodies. Is it better to advertise confessional yet not be following those vows OR to have a broader confession that is actually honored in practice? I still don’t know the answer.
 
Unless there is fasting, mourning, and repentance I believe the trend will continue. We have become fat in feeding our bellies over and above feeding our souls. I hope this is a wake up call to our leaders. I fear many leaders who want to split off will do so and solely point the finger at the progressives, BUT we are all to blame. Even in the “conservative” bodies, the Lord’s Day get’s sacrificed to football worship, candle worship, and Orchestra Level ensembles that drowned the voice of the saints. Even in conservative bodies members are left on the roles undisciplined who’ve not passed through the doors in years.

I have often wondered, in my geographical area, if it would be better to join with a conservative Baptist congregation over the local PCA bodies. Is it better to advertise confessional yet not be following those vows OR to have a broader confession that is actually honored in practice? I still don’t know the answer.
At this moment in time, it seems like a good thing to belong to a church that isn't part of a denom since all the denoms are dragging down the churches.
 
At this moment in time, it seems like a good thing to belong to a church that isn't part of a denom since all the denoms are dragging down the churches.
That’s a tough one. This current season is still within the scope of God’s Sovereignty (which I know you know) and I do believe the scripture teaches the Presbyterian form of Church government and levels of courts. But the practical side of me still wants to say “you may be right”.
 
At this moment in time, it seems like a good thing to belong to a church that isn't part of a denom since all the denoms are dragging down the churches.
That’s a tough one. This current season is still within the scope of God’s Sovereignty (which I know you know) and I do believe the scripture teaches the Presbyterian form of Church government and levels of courts. But the practical side of me still wants to say “you may be right”.
That may seem attractive but it's a bad solution and I would avoid it if at all possible. I say that having had a church that was far more solid than the most solid pca church I know of, bust up over seemingly trivial non doctrinal issues because it didn't have the oversight of a presbytery which may have been able to help resolve them. Congregationalism will be a temporary solution, a few years or a generation. Right now even the worst pca presbytery probably has good oversight functions for basic church problems.
 
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Grant, you said, "I have often wondered, in my geographical area, if it would be better to join with a conservative Baptist congregation over the local PCA bodies."

This is exactly what my wife and I did in the NYC area, as the Metro NYC Presbytery had gone so far off track (I am not easily shocked, but the feminist hold on the flagship church – and spreading out to the daughter churches and plants – was shocking and distressing to see), and the feminist spirit not even the worst of what was taking place.

That said, I must still say I owe an immense debt of love to Tim Keller and Redeemer PCA (Manhattan) for the solid foundation in the Gospel I gained during my six years there (and more, even while out of the country). Churches – and individuals – must be ware lest they decline from Biblical fidelity in their walks and doctrines. Such can happen even to the "best" of us if we do not truly ask the LORD for help in this!
 
I don't have specific suggestions for the PCA, but I would caution against thinking that more attention to the law is the answer.

The flagrant violations of God's law can certainly be an argument in prayer: "It is time for thee, Lord, to work; for they have made void thy law." (Psalm 119:126)

A renewed preaching of the law might be a wonderful presage to reform, if by God's blessing it brought knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20). And certainly church discipline must be practiced.

But the law has never succeeded in obtaining righteousness. True repentance even requires an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ (WLC 76). Perhaps the caution is needless, but for those who are downcast and disheartened over these situations, don't let heartbreak over the violation of God's law (Psalm 119:136) obscure that it is when the Gospel comes with power that real change of heart and life takes place.
 
I think we (the PCA) are certainly deserving of the current calamities. We have neglected many of the Lord’s commands and also failed to discipline those failures. Ever more disheartening is that much of our disobedience has become “The Law” and anyone questioning the norm is seen as a Pharisee even when simple asking “the BCO says this (xyz), but why do we do this (xyz)?”

For some time, I have thought (at least suspected) that all denominationalism is both sinful and doomed. And not without reason. In John 17, Jesus prayed three times for His Church to be (i.e., become) one, even as He and the Father are One. And that He had in mind something more--much more--than the mystical oneness that does now exist between true saints of the Most High. But you'd never know it, would you?

Please bear with me for a moment.

In Jesus' prayer in John 17:1-26, He uses the word 'world' [κόσμος] at least 18 times. I say "at least" because, in the ESV, the word 'κόσμος' is missing in verse 12, where it is included in the KJV. So in the 26 verses of this chapter, Jesus uses the word 'world' at least 18 times. It must be important.

As you may know, the Gk 'κόσμος,' which in the ESV is always translated as 'world,' has several meanings. But not too many.

In John 17 it has at least these three meanings: (I will only give one verse for each meaning)
vs.5 - The physical world, perhaps the entire creation.
vs. 6 - All the people in the world, including the elect, who "were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph. 2:3)
vs. 9 - The world of the reprobate. "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." (Rom. 9:22)

vs. 14 - A notable absence - Those who are not of the world (I.e., Jesus and the elect) are never referred to as the world of the elect. In other words, - Whenever the elect are mentioned in reference to the world, the meaning of the world is synonyms with the reprobate and never to the world that includes future saints. This fact is important as we look at what Jesus prays for the still future oneness of the Church on earth.

John 17:25​
O, righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

I have said enough to leave the implications of Jesus' prayer for the Church and its effect on the world to your own interpretation.
Remember. Jesus' prayers, unlike ours, also prophesy.


John 17:9,11,20-23​
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
20-23 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
 
I am in no position to speak about the PCA in detail, but is it not expected that when a denomination which has seminaries of different flavours, differences are bound to appear over time especially as graduates are sent out into ministry? (not speaking about good or bad seminaries here, but I think we can all acknowledge there is a variety of seminaries PCA students can go to, for better or for worse, which leads to different views)
 
There is no path forward that doesn't start with God's Law. I'm not talking about reading a commandment each week - we're wayyyyyyy beyond that. I'm talking about preaching through the book of Deuteronomy and memorizing Psalm 119. 'Christians' are grossly ignorant of God's ethic and the church rolls are (obviously!) filled with 'members' who heard the glorious good news of the gospel without the context of their desperate situation regarding God's Law and as a result, the gospel came across like a Hallmark greeting card.
Well said.

BTW
I had the privilege of befriending doctor Lee in his last six or seven years of life. He was a welcome participant in the old crtl discussion group hosted by reformed.org. Although more educated than 1 in a 1,000 theologians today, I knew Francis as a simple, gentle and godly man, who was at peace with God and himself. He told me of his daily walks that he took, as far as I know up to the time of his death. As I recall, it was in 2011. What a dear man and lovely person he was. And a friend to me. I will never forget the wonderful correspondence we had together.
 
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As a young believer, in around March of 1968, I had no idea at all of the role of the Law of God in any respect. At the witness of someone telling me the Gospel of Christ, the Holy Spirit bore witness to the reality and glory of the crucified and risen Saviour, and I was converted that moment. Completely apart from any relation to my gross law-breaking, my ontological state prior to that moment of conversion was horrific.

The sorcerous drugs I had been taking propelled me into the abyss where the unregenerate – the living dead – are, a place where no life is. In my horror and panic – for it was an inner death-sentence to the otherwise robust 26-year-old I was then – I sought for the ontologic antidote to such, which is love. I wrote of this in A Great and Terrible Love:

'But it was so clear to me that to desire a woman, to seek to “grasp” her into my being, to exert any effort to this end, would irreparably trouble the still waters of effortless union, and break the perfection I sought. This may not make sense to some, but it hit me like a death-blow. It meant that I was alone, seeing as I could not effect such union as I sought by any effort, and my heart was too needy for love to acquiesce in that state. I was in the Void, absolutely alone, and without the illumination that gives Life.

'I went up into the countryside to see Lisa, an old and true love, and she said to me, “Steve, I love you, but I can’t help you.” Back on the road again, death hounding me like a nightmare dog, noiseless but steady.'​

It was at this very juncture, in the neighborhood of the elderly woman who witnessed to me, and whom I visited, that the Lord was revealed to me.

I did not learn of the place of the Law till much later. What was Law to me then was the word of Christ – His commands – and they were the rule of life I had to follow. I had such a profound awareness of spiritual death – the absence of eternal life – that I clung to Him who Himself was Life, who was God, and sought to stay near Him. It was a long saga, it turned out, and I fell again and again – and overall, for some years – but Jesus was a faithful, and skilled, and wise Shepherd, and eventually established me. This happened when the Doctrines of Grace were shown to me, first by His direct dealing with me, and then by some Reformed (3FU), and later by some Reformed Baptists – who gave me the doctrinal basis on which to stand.

The Law is extremely important – crucial – to a sound understanding of "lostness" and salvation, but in this present time where consciousness of spiritual / ontological death is widespread, where the zombie – in the living Hell of a race of zombies in the abyss of the Void which is Satan's heart – is the fitting image or symbol of the unregenerate human condition, the light of Christ's heart and words without further knowledge is sufficient to save.

There is a blessing, in a sense, deriving from the recreational sorcery so widespread in our land (and world), which is an experience of our nakedness, an exposure, to our awful condition as spiritual beings. This experience drives many mad, and the rage and foulness of their hearts pours forth in the chaos we see around us, but the elect among them receive Christ when He is preached. Even in this demonic age – this sorcerous age, as I have called it – the Lord is present, and is moving to fulfill His purposes.

All this to say, it is the Spirit of Christ who saves, and not knowledge of the Law of God. What the Law of God does is show the full revelation of His glory, His saving majesty and wisdom, and our forlorn and helpless estate apart from Him.
 
I have often wondered, in my geographical area, if it would be better to join with a conservative Baptist congregation over the local PCA bodies. Is it better to advertise confessional yet not be following those vows OR to have a broader confession that is actually honored in practice? I still don’t know the answer.
Should the need arise I could certainly find refuge and worship in a conservative (esp. Reformed) Baptist church but due to my convictions about baptism itself (I was sprinkled at 15, and my wife and children were all baptized as infants) I could never join one since my family and I would all need to be dunked. Similar (for different reasons) with an Anglican, Lutheran, or other churches.

My church is PCA but our elders are all strongly confessional men. I’m grateful we have them.
 
At this moment in time, it seems like a good thing to belong to a church that isn't part of a denom since all the denoms are dragging down the churches.

Not all the denominations are dragging down the churches. There are a few out there who are still remaining true. However, what disturbs me is how it seems that it will only be these very small denoms (like my own, the BPC) who are doing so, but ONLY because they are small.

Is this being lean and mean? Or is it slim and grim?

A haunting thought for me is that there seems to be an inverse relationship between denomination size and confessional faithfulness. The larger the church, the lower the confessional bar goes. I find that a depressing thought, but it seems to be what's been happening all these years? Don't know the answer either...but the OP is on to something: we do need to be focusing more on God's Law as part of the solution to all this.
 
A haunting thought for me is that there seems to be an inverse relationship between denomination size and confessional faithfulness. The larger the church, the lower the confessional bar goes. I find that a depressing thought, but it seems to be what's been happening all these years? Don't know the answer either...but the OP is on to something: we do need to be focusing more on God's Law as part of the solution to all this.
I think part of the reason for that is there's more than one kind of false teacher. The parasitic kind is naturally attracted to positions of relative ease. Where congregations are small and it's a continual struggle to make ends meet, that is not an attractive setting for people whose feeling about the ministry is that it ought to be a nice sinecure that allows them to pursue their real interests.
 
That said, I must still say I owe an immense debt of love to Tim Keller and Redeemer PCA (Manhattan) for the solid foundation in the Gospel I gained during my six years there (and more, even while out of the country). Churches – and individuals – must be ware lest they decline from Biblical fidelity in their walks and doctrines. Such can happen even to the "best" of us if we do not truly ask the LORD for help in this!
I would argue Tim Keller is a big part of why the denomination has gone downhill. He is really into the CRT, woke stuff, and Marxism and is pushing it constantly on his social media platforms. The panel discussions he has also advocate for these positions. He also spent last week telling us how much of a good Christian Steven Colbert is and that other Christians should be more like him. Mind you, Steven Colbert is a leftist papist.

I think all denominations would be in better positions if they started calling out false teaching more and did church discipline as they are commanded. I think it is also time to throw out the 11th commandment (thou shalt be "nice" no matter what the circumstance), it has not done the church any favors.
 
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Unfortunately, I have to agree with you, Jason! I knew him at a time – from 1997-2002 – when he was still sound. Even then he was revealing his growing view on Genesis (theistic evolution), and I had challenged him on it, per Rom 5:12, but didn't get to pursue it.

A cautionary tale for us all, that we take heed lest we fall. A pastor friend of mine in the NYC PCA area said, "I pray he ends well."
 
To fine-tune what I wrote in post #13, lest I be misunderstood, regarding the significance of God's Law to me (and to all of us who believe). I was regenerated many years without a proper understanding of it, and during this period my spiritual life was not in good shape at all, to put it mildly. Yet, the Lord sustained me. It was only when I came to an apprehension of the Doctrines of Grace, and the Reformed faith, that He stabilized my walk with Him. These excerpts from the WCF, Chapter 19 highlight what I was missing!

5. The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither doth Christ, in the gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.​
6. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience...​

I think the heart of my present walk in Christ stands on this: I am accepted of God as I abide in Christ and His perfect righteousness – which righteousness I gratefully hold as my own before Father – and without which I have no standing before Him save that of a Hell-bound sinner, any supposed "righteousness" of my own but filthy rags. It is because of Christ, who is my life "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in [me], who walks not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom 8:4).

God graciously overlooks our ignorance while He brings us into increasing maturity. Without this recourse to having Christ's perfect obedience given me, whereby I am "holy and beloved" by Father (Col 3:12), as an oasis of constant refreshment, joy, strengthening, and courage, I would not have withal to pursue increasing sanctification.

It is a wonder that He sustained and blessed me in my time of ignorance.
 
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I would argue Tim Keller is a big part of why the denomination has gone downhill. He is really into the CRT, woke stuff, and Marxism and is pushing it constantly on his social media platforms. The panel discussions he has also advocate for these positions. He also spent last week telling us how much of a good Christian Steven Colbert is and that other Christians should be more like him. Mind you, Steven Colbert is a leftist papist.

I think all denominations would be in better positions if they started calling out false teaching more and did church discipline as they are commanded. I think it is also time to throw out the 11th commandment (thou shalt be "nice" no matter what the circumstance), it has not done the church any favors.

I am soooooo disappointed in Tim Keller. He's pure poison.
 
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