The perils of being a creepy old Christian and losing your "passion"

[Puritanhead]

The perils of being a creepy old Christian and losing your \"passion\"

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
You are young and spry; God will use you one day in a larger fashion.

That reminds me: Why do older folks mistake a loss of passion for spiritual maturity?
An attorney friend of mine who has critiqued some of my writings from time-to-time, offered me this prudent exhortation:

By the way, while working on sanctification and kicking youthful impulses, be careful about not kicking out passion. I've been thinking lately how hard the world tries to kill passion for the Truth. Too many older Christians have a defeated outlook that they mistake for maturity. As [John] Knox has shown, there is a place for mature and well directed passion. It scares people and it probably should.

Outside of my Bible readings, this is the wisest thing I have heard all summer. I think he is on to something. I see a lot of passion in young twenty-somethings on the board like Jacob Aitken and Gabriel Martini. That they stand by the courage of their convictions is admirable as well.

Our focus as believers seeking maturation in our Christian walk should not be losing our passion, but directing it towards a more God-centered focus as we shake off the stubborn tenacity of youth, and discover how to better pick our fights and our doctrinal affirmations and how we let Christianity shape our thought patterns and life as we grow in wisdom. Granted, our weapons are not carnal, and our fight is not against flesh and blood... They never were.

(While I strongly emphasize I am speaking of no one in particular on the PB,) too often a sizable lot of you older Christian folks mistake resignation and non-engagement with the world for spiritual maturation. Every now and then, an intellectual brushfire needs to be set somewhere, but most of you older folks have neither the gumption nor the passion to spark such fires. Why? Because you don't have any passion. You lost it, as you got older, and you naively mistake it as an indicator of spiritual progress and growth in character.

It's probably no surprise that these same folks leave evangelism to us twenty-somethings, as they profess more pressing concerns. Ironically, a mature believer is better equipped to evangelize and avoid misguided youthful approaches to evangelism. You guys are without excuse.

P.S. If you are mature in character than these above statements should not offend you old folks who drink prune-juice and carry an AARP card. Deep down, you know its true.
:bigsmile:

[Edited on 7-16-2006 by Puritanhead]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Young Guns and the hidden fear of bedside cammodes

Ryan,
No one is looking down on anyone based upon them being young. In fact, one of our mods, Chris Blum is a fine example of a young mature Christian man. With maturity, comes the bridling of the tongue. There are ways to get one's point across without breaking a sweat Ryan. I was once a young man. I have all the marks to prove it. Sitting upon one's hands does not necessarily make one weak or useless. Just look at someone like John Farese; he's a brilliant, beautiful Christian man who is bedridden from disease, yet his ministry is vibrant. He is passionate. It is subtle, but present. Passion must be defined in degrees. You define it on the front line; in the fox hole. Is the Lt. Colonel in the rear looking at maps any less passionate about what he does? Or the man whom is seldom seen speaking in church settings, yet he is a mighty prayer warrior, even wearing out the tips of his shoes from kneeling for such long hours each day. Surely, spiritual maturity comes with age. Even the bible says that grey hair is a crown of wisdom. So for all it's worth, what I 'know is true' is based upon experience. Been there, done that; got the shirt, pal.

As far as evangelism goes, you presume you know my heart; I leave nothing to you 'twenty-somethings'. in my opinion, this is another example of impulsitivity, based upon a weak assertion at best. Now behave yourself or I'll send you to your room without dinner!


[Edited on 7-16-2006 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Puritanhead]

Young Guns and the hidden fear of bedside cammodes

What a tactful response Scott! Iron sharpening iron! I needed to see the flip-side of my "passion" coin and only someone older and wiser could have brought it to my attention. I am being appreciative, not cynical.

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
In fact, one of our mods, Chris Blum is a fine example of a young mature Christian man.

I cannot speak ill of Chris Blum nor deny that he is everything you say he is, but I will say this: kids that grow up to be moderators on message boards, were usually the same kids who in grade school had volunteered to take names when the teacher left the classroom. You bunch of tattle-tales. That goes for Chris Rhoades too.

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Sitting upon one's hands does not necessarily make one weak or useless.

Good point. Just remember it is better not to sit on your hands in perpetuity, or eventually they will go numb, lifeless, and the doctors might have to amputate them. An unused appendage is a useless appendage.

Again, wisdom's concern is how to pick your battles not always abstaining from them. The former is something us younguns' by and large have not always been so keen on discerning (myself included) until we gain wisdom with age.

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
With maturity, comes the bridling of the tongue. There are ways to get one's point across without breaking a sweat Ryan. I was once a young man. I have all the marks to prove it.

I'm still working on that tongue-bridling part. It's an area I need to work on. Lawrence Underwood wrote a very practical post about Sins of the Tongue. I now realize there is another facet to "vain and idle chatter" besides cursing that the Apostle Paul was condemning (2 Timothy 2:16).I admit I don't hold my tongue especially when lamenting perceived wrongs committed against me. Granted, I think we don't have to be humorless, (which reminds me of yet another misgiving of mine: how some people think being humorless is a sign of maturation.)

Originally posted by Scott Bushey
passion must be defined in degrees. You define it on the front line; in the fox hole. Is the Lt. Colonel in the rear looking at maps any less passion ate about what he does? Or the man whom is seldom seen speaking in church settings, yet he is a mighty prayer warrior, even wearing out the tips of his shoes from kneeling for such long hours each day. Surely, spiritual maturity comes with age. Even the bible says that grey hair is a crown of wisdom. So for all it's worth, what I 'know is true' is based upon experience. Been there, done that; got the shirt, pal.

Scott, I understand some Lieutenant Colonels at the Pentagon have gotten a Purple Heart from time to time, revving the photocopy machine up too much, and getting paper cuts.


Seriously, all kidding aside "” I readily concede that is a very poignant counter-point to my tongue-in-cheek banter. My point of emphasis and articulation has perhaps led you to believe I don't esteem the little saints and the prayer warriors. My central point was that many just get out of the game altogether mistaking resignation for maturity, and lose their willingness to stand by the courage of their convictions as well as their drive and passion altogether, which is lamentable. What is worse, they chalk such a move up to being spiritually mature, because they see engagement as immature.

I admit, us younguns' often have a lot of bark, and we think we have a lot of bite "” and we are functionally sort of like a pack of little rabid Christian chihuahuas on steroids. I think our concern as young believers should be shedding that stubborn tenacity of youth in our twenties and thirties, while not losing that "passion" that often starts in our youth. Many, never can strike the precarious balance either way. We need to stay sharp and gain wisdom with age, and not lose our passion all the same, but ask of God who gives wisdom liberally and without reproach.

I admit we younguns' could strive to emulate the Apostle Andrew who took heed to the little things first. Too often, our sinful pride compels us to seek the accolades of men and the esteem of people in our actions, when we really need our pride disquieted and removed from us. Knowledge and wisdom are not that the same thing, and many people have knowledge in their head, but they have not the wisdom to desemminate it. (And I am the proverbial pot calling the kettle black in affirming this aforesaid statement.) Likewise, I have found that it is a daily struggle to make my heart conform to my "head." I have got the core theology and the Bible lined up pretty accurately in my "head," but I struggle to let it animate my day-to-day life. I look to God's grace that I might grow in faith and sanctification "” knowing that I can do no good works without His enabling. My growth thus far, has only made me more troubled by my weaknesses and sin. Somehow, in our recognition of weakness, we Christians have to realize that we are slowly being perfected and refined.

The Apostle Andrew left no epistles that we are aware of, and he didn't really speak to large crowds like the other Apostles, and yet he was intertwined deeply in his ministry and dealt with people on a one-on-one basis, and did a lot for the early church, and suffered the grace of martyrdom ultimately.

In his book Twelve Ordinary Men, John MacArthur said of the Apostle Andrew:

Andrew was Peter's brother, and lived with him. He is the least known of the first four. He had been a disciple of John the Baptist first, and he saw Jesus for the first time when Jesus was baptized. They met the next day. He was also the first apostle to be called, and was often the means through which the other apostles met Jesus. He even introduced Peter to Jesus. "Andrew" means "manly"- Andrew had physical strength due to his job, but he was also bold, decisive, and deliberate.

Andrew exhibited much eagerness to follow Jesus. Andrew is only mentioned twelve times in the New Testament, mostly in passing, which could illustrate he had the right heart for effective ministry in the background. He appeared to be pleased to do what he could to advance Jesus' ministry with the gifts he had. He appears to the least conscientious and the most thoughtful of the apostles. He saw value in individuals "” he brought many to Christ personally. He saw the value of insignificant gifts, and he saw the value of inconspicuous service.

Macarthur's point was not that Andrew was comparatively better than Simon Peter, but that rather we can see how God worked in the lives of those eleven ordinary men (not including Judas.)

Myself, I am more like the Apostle Simon Peter, the "Apostle with the Foot-Shaped Mouth." In fact, my mouth is very big, and shaped strangely enough like my size-twelve foot.
:bigsmile:

I have a lot of "passion", and at times, and I have turned my back on Christ and his teachings in much the same way Simon Peter did. God can use my mistakes in the past to convict me, bring me to a deeper cognizance of the peril of sin and recognition of human frailty in myself and others, and imbue me with some much needed humility, as I strive to fight the good fight of faith. I saw what he did with Simon Peter.

Going back to my original statement, I still think one can see some wisdom behind all of the cheesy humor. Some people shed the wrong things as they ripen up and think they are becoming more mature ostensibly.

Many have punched out, rather than opt to be in the warroom strategizing like our hypothetical Lieutenant Colonel. These people are simply out of the game altogether. They mistake their defeatism and resignation for a sign of their own progress and maturity. Not surprisingly, they go hide in their cloister. They are not engaged in the battle in any facet, as they simply refrain from engaging any and everyone particularly those who need to be challenged. So, I think I have raised a valid concern. My attempt is not to stereotype older believers, but merely point at a misguided mentality that afflicts some older believers as I perceive it.

Granted, some younguns' can be on fire for theological things, and suffer the monastic trap where they keep their head buried in a Bible commentary while concurrently neglecting discipleship. Don't get me wrong. Us younguns' are far from immune from misguided side-tracks, despite our "passion", which is why we need direction and wisdom from the mature believers.

In conclusion, it truly takes growth and humility for people to see that our Lieutenant Colonel "Andrew" is no less important, if not more so, than the guys on the front line, or more aptly in the limelight.

I know God is still chipping away on me when I petition him in supplication to mold and make me into an admirable man of God. I am in need of a lot more growth, humility, and wisdom, and God's grace that I might profit from it.

Iron sharpens iron

Puritanhead

[Edited on 7-16-2006 by Puritanhead]

 

[ReformedWretch]

Young Guns and the hidden fear of bedside cammodes

Just to jump in here a tad.

I am 36 and am OFTEN told by my friends and co-workers that I am one of the most passionate persons they have ever met. Some tell me I should "tone it down" because I come across like a steam roller. I have trouble with that advice because it often comes across to me as if they don't want to hear what I have to say because it's true. They often tell me that my points are acurate and need to be spoken, then in the next breath tell me to cool it with talking about them.

It's confusing.

 

[Bandguy]

Young Guns and the hidden fear of bedside cammodes

Originally posted by houseparent
Just to jump in here a tad.

I am 36 and am OFTEN told by my friends and co-workers that I am one of the most passionate persons they have ever met. Some tell me I should "tone it down" because I come across like a steam roller. I have trouble with that advice because it often comes across to me as if they don't want to hear what I have to say because it's true. They often tell me that my points are acurate and need to be spoken, then in the next breath tell me to cool it with talking about them.

It's confusing.

Houseparent,

Have you ever listened to Michael Savage on the radio. He has much the same message many times as people like Sean Hannity and others. He is, however, very mean spirited and inflammatory in the way he presents that message most of the time. Therefore people get tired of hearing him scream at them and call them names and berate them, and stop listening to the message. They can't see the truth of the message because all they hear is the bitter way it is presented. I think this is a matter of not seeing the forest for all the trees.

I listened to one of your episodes of your internet broadcast, and although, I am not sure I totally agree with everything you said, I must say that I don't think you suffer from the same problem as Michael Savage. I think you are very direct and to the point, but not offensive.

 

[Puritanhead]

Now what moderator one may one wonder would split this off from the original thread, and title it Young Guns and the hidden fear of bedside cammodes? Hmmmmm

I sure didn't come up with that title!!!

 

[turmeric]

And he doesn't know how to spell "commode" either!

 

[Scott Bushey]

 

[Ivan]

 

[Puritanhead]

Let me pose a serious question...

Maybe I already know the answer to it.

(1) Does my proclivity for always being tongue-in-cheek, anecedotal, and humorous and lacing such humor throughout my statements prevent or impede people from taking me seriously?

(2) Does anyone take me seriously?

 

[blhowes]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
(1) Does my proclivity for always being tongue-in-cheek, anecedotal, and humorous and lacing such humor throughout my statements prevent or impede people from taking me seriously?

... oh, was this a serious question?

 

[gwine]

Originally posted by Puritanhead
Let me pose a serious question...

Maybe I already know the answer to it.

(1) Does my proclivity for always being tongue-in-cheek, anecedotal, and humorous and lacing such humor throughout my statements prevent or impede people from taking me seriously?

(2) Does anyone take me seriously?

(1) Sometimes yes on the word "prevent" (Latin praevenire, praeventum; prae before + venire to come.)

definitely yes on the word "impede" (Latin impedire, literally, to entangle the feet.)

(2) I'm sure someone does.

 

[MW]

As an observant man once said, "patience is passion tamed."

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Ryan,

You and I have gotten in heated arguments here. What some may not realize is that, behind the scenes, we chat and get along great. I really like Ryan for those who may think otherwise.

I've expressed previously that I'm not always sure when you're joking. I'd probably laugh if we were in person at some things you write here because I'm just not sure. This medium makes it difficult.

I take you seriously but I'm just not always sure when you're serious. Does that make sense?

As to passion and youth - it depends on the kind you're talking about. I've always been a type A+++ personality. I'm also a bit of a clown. In fact, I was talking to the family of some friends at Church yesterday. They are visiting from VA (Arlington - the Yankee part of the State) and are in town for a wedding this week. We had them over at our house the night before and I was cracking jokes and making fun of them from virtually the moment they arrived.

Well, they asked me yesterday if I acted like that around my Marines because they just couldn't imagine a Marine Officer was prone to being so playful. The answer was yes. I'm really the same person. I make work fun for all my Marines but I expect the very best from them and I am extremely serious when they fall short. I'm far from perfect.

Everywhere I've been, people know me as being someone who likes to make others laugh. I've done too much of that sometimes but, generally, I've kept the respect of my seniors, peers, and subordinates and in my family and church relationships. I think you can be funny and still be respected.

For what it's worth Ryan, I respect you. You are extremely intelligent and well-read. You write very well and have great insights into God's Word. You are also very honest about your own failings and man enough to receive a rebuke from others. I'm not always sure when you're joking but, when I know you are, I think you're really funny.

Am I less passionate than I used to be? I don't think so. Might a 22 year old Lieutenant think I am more tentative and less "passionate" than he is? Probably.

The difference between me and him is at least two things: perspective and knowledge. When your scope of responsibility is larger and you have to take the advice of many you realize that sometimes the Lt is missing the information that you have. Sometimes decisions that leaders make are regarded as tenative or dispassionate or cowardly or political because they are not listening to the aggressive voices (passionate?) who want things done now. They have more concerns to consider than the "passionate" voices. They have a passionate concern that the right thing be done in a situation and are usually operating with more information than those who just see their corner of the world and how that decision affects them.

I am an adjunct faculty member of a school that trains Captains and Lieutenants the art of warfare with focus at the tactical level of warfare. We also allow Staff NCO's to attend the training. Many of the SNCO's have been in the Corps for 10-15 years but have a very narrow perspective as they've never served outside their field. It is usually quite eye opening for them as the entire panaplea of MEF level operations is laid bare and they see the complex orchestration of Air, Ground, and See operations.

One of the SNCO's remarked that when the Deputy Commandant of Installation and Logistics (a 3 star general) visited recently that he had wanted to ask him what the technical characteristics of a new radio fielded to the Marine Corps were going to be. I wanted to laugh at the question but I had to take it seriously. I told him that there are many things that demand the consideration of a person responsible for installation and logistics for a 200,000 person organization spread all over the world and knowing the details of a radio system was just a bit too much detail. It hadn't really occurred to him that the General might be thinking more in terms of the "big picture." The Staff Sergeant said he had a "high standard" for his leaders and that, if the General didn't know that, it reflected poorly on him. I think I convinced him otherwise. In fact, I have no desire to ever be promoted to any flag rank as those guys work endlessly. Talk about passion for being a Marine that I'd rather invest elsewhere (like my family) but this SNCO might have perceived that the General lacked passion because he didn't know that the radio put out 20 Watts in the HF frequency band and used ALE.

Finally, regarding passion, I think some young people are just brash and idiotic. I sometimes reflect, in abject horror, at the things I've said to people when I was in my teens and twenties. I can't believe people actually liked me back then sometimes. I've always been hyper-intense and extremely strong in my convictions. Heck, I used to be a very convicted Roman Catholic. I'm glad I lost passion for that rubbish heap.

I think there is something to be said, however, for younger folk to consider carefully the thoughts of their elders and not mistake disagreement with timidity. Honestly, I have a real pet peave with many forums these days because they're overrun by teenagers that have uninformed opinions about everything. You don't have to be a teenager to be passionate about stupid things but it seems they have a particular knack for expressing it in ways that bugs me. Even when I was brash, I was brash around my peers. I was raised well enough not to tell my elders (in and out of the Church) that they didn't know what they were talking about. I was raised better than that and I have a real weakness with younger people that act like they've got it all figured out. Those with undisciplined passion, that don't want to listen to elders because they perceive them as being "sell outs", are called FOOLS by the Word of God.

 

[ReformedWretch]

Originally posted by Bandguy

Originally posted by houseparent
Just to jump in here a tad.

I am 36 and am OFTEN told by my friends and co-workers that I am one of the most passionate persons they have ever met. Some tell me I should "tone it down" because I come across like a steam roller. I have trouble with that advice because it often comes across to me as if they don't want to hear what I have to say because it's true. They often tell me that my points are acurate and need to be spoken, then in the next breath tell me to cool it with talking about them.

It's confusing.

Houseparent,

Have you ever listened to Michael Savage on the radio. He has much the same message many times as people like Sean Hannity and others. He is, however, very mean spirited and inflammatory in the way he presents that message most of the time. Therefore people get tired of hearing him scream at them and call them names and berate them, and stop listening to the message. They can't see the truth of the message because all they hear is the bitter way it is presented. I think this is a matter of not seeing the forest for all the trees.

I listened to one of your episodes of your internet broadcast, and although, I am not sure I totally agree with everything you said, I must say that I don't think you suffer from the same problem as Michael Savage. I think you are very direct and to the point, but not offensive.

Thanks for that! I appreciate the feedback very much.

 

[Puddleglum]

Ryan . . . I do take you seriously, probably more than I should, because I often can't tell that you're joking. But I take most people here too seriously at times (honestly - I've gone on several short breaks from the PB to help myself not take everything here way too seriously) - and even in non-cyberspace, I sometimes have a hard time telling when someone is being serious and when they are joking - even people that I have had a good relationship with for many years. So the fact that I have that struggle with your posts doesn't necessarily mean anything about you . . .

I think a part of maturity is knowing your audience, and knowing when you can be more blunt and humorous, and when to tone it down. That's something I've been learning (or realizing that I need to learn!) this past year; my roommates can be very blunt and direct, and when talking with them I have to be fairly forthright, but I have some friends that I have to be careful to be very moderate in how I say things, because of their personalities and how they communicate . . .

On the whole "passion" thing - one thing that I've seen in myself (as another young person) is the ability to be passionate about something for a short time, but not really stick with it. I think us younger people have a tendency to be like a fire made out of paper - it looks quite impressive and "passionate" when it's burning, but it really isn't that hot and has no staying power. Older people seem to be more like those thick logs - they don't have the huge flames, but if you get one of those logs lit, they get much hotter and last for a lot longer than a pile of paper . . .

 

[Bladestunner316]

I think people take you much more seriouselly then me Ryan!!

 

[MW]

You will be surprised what passionless mature people will take seriously once they get a whiff of the snags cooking on the BBQ.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Speak ENGLISH! What, pray tell, is a snag?

 

[MW]

My son tells me its an acronym for "sensitive new age guy." But in Aussie talk its a sausage. And a BBQ is what you people call a cookout, I believe.

 

[Puritanhead]

Originally posted by SemperFideles
Speak ENGLISH! What, pray tell, is a snag?

ENGLISH!?! YOU REALLY MEAN SPEAK AMERICAN

 

[MW]

Originally posted by Puritanhead

Originally posted by SemperFideles
Speak ENGLISH! What, pray tell, is a snag?

ENGLISH!?! YOU REALLY MEAN SPEAK AMERICAN

Eggsactly.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Ryan,

I was trying to poke fun. I love Aussie accents and expressions. My son probably thinks only sharks talk that way though.

 

[MW]

And surfin' turtles, dude!

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally posted by armourbearer
And surfin' turtles, dude!

 

[MW]

Originally posted by VirginiaHuguenot

Originally posted by armourbearer
And surfin' turtles, dude!

Whooooaaaahhhhh!

 

[turmeric]

Originally posted by armourbearer
My son tells me its an acronym for "sensitive new age guy." But in Aussie talk its a sausage. And a BBQ is what you people call a cookout, I believe.

I thought that was a "barbie".

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Originally posted by Bandguy

Originally posted by houseparent
Just to jump in here a tad.

I am 36 and am OFTEN told by my friends and co-workers that I am one of the most passionate persons they have ever met. Some tell me I should "tone it down" because I come across like a steam roller. I have trouble with that advice because it often comes across to me as if they don't want to hear what I have to say because it's true. They often tell me that my points are acurate and need to be spoken, then in the next breath tell me to cool it with talking about them.

It's confusing.

Houseparent,

Have you ever listened to Michael Savage on the radio. He has much the same message many times as people like Sean Hannity and others. He is, however, very mean spirited and inflammatory in the way he presents that message most of the time. Therefore people get tired of hearing him scream at them and call them names and berate them, and stop listening to the message. They can't see the truth of the message because all they hear is the bitter way it is presented. I think this is a matter of not seeing the forest for all the trees.

I listened to one of your episodes of your internet broadcast, and although, I am not sure I totally agree with everything you said, I must say that I don't think you suffer from the same problem as Michael Savage. I think you are very direct and to the point, but not offensive.

Ah Joseph...we meet again.

I see much of the same old same old is going on at the BaptistBoard eh?

 

[Bandguy]

Hi Brian,

I apologize. But I don't remember you. Who are you, how do I know you, and what same old, same old is going on at the Baptist Board?

 

[BaptistCanuk]

Hi Joseph, well I was on the BaptistBoard before. Got banned for I don't know what. lol If it was for figthing, well I see a lot of that still going on.

You and I used to get into "discussions" about conservatism and liberalism, etc. and you gave me some helpful links. You may remember me now, you may not, but my name is Brian and it's good to see you here. Take care.