The nature of God's incarnation and performing miracles?

[moselle]

I need help with these paragraphs. I agree with the "eternal Son of God/Man", and am assuming the fully God and fully human aspect, but I can't quite sort out the idea of "self-imposed restrictions", and that He was "unable to heal the sick..." without "the Holy Spirit to empower Him for the impossible..."


[...Yet Jesus was unable to heal the sick. This fact is taken from His own words, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself . . ." He was unable to heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils, or cleanse the lepers, unless God worked through Him. When He commanded His disciples to do these things, He was requiring them to do what was impossible without God's help.

Jesus Christ is both the eternal Son of God, and the Son of Man. As God, nothing is impossible for Him. But, He chose to live with self-imposed restrictions that He might be the model for all who would believe in His name. This is a very important part of our theology. If He did miracles as God, I am obviously impressed by His love and power, but I'm not able to duplicate it. However, if He did them as a man through a right relationship with the Father, then I am compelled to pursue to become like Him.

Although He lived as a man, He had two unique characteristics; He had no sin to separate Him from the Father, and He was completely dependant on the Holy Spirit to empower Him for the impossible. The blood of Jesus makes us sinless. And we have access to the limitless power of heaven through Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Because of this Jesus commanded us to follow Him in all things: even in His confrontation with the impossible, saying, ". . . greater works than these he will do . . ." In the same way Jesus expected fruit out of season from the fig tree, an impossibility, so God requires us to bear fruit from the supernatural realm. He has given us access to that reality through His blood, and the indwelling person of the Holy Spirit.]


What is this saying about the nature/incarnation of Jesus? Is it saying he set aside his deity? (And what exactly does that mean?) Feel free to explain it to me as though I were a 12yo. I sometimes get a bit fuzzy on basic doctrines.

 

[wturri78]

Is there a source from which you're quoting this, or a larger context surrounding it?

 

[moselle]

Is there a source from which you're quoting this, or a larger context surrounding it?

Yes, sorry about that. (New to this kind of thing .) It is taken from an article written by Bill Johnson, pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, CA. My sister is moving to CA in order to attend the church and sent me some articles to read. (I have some issues with a lot of what I've read so far, but this passage was particularly confusing to me. The context of the entire article makes it a bit scary.)

I'm still trying to figure out how to add a link to the entire article. Please stand by...

Bethel Church in Redding, CA

OK, I think that's it. If the link doesn't work, you can Google the church, look under "features", "Journals" and all the way to the bottom to an article called "An Adventure into the Impossible".

 

[Contra_Mundum]

No, I do not read him saying Jesus set aside his deity.

I think his main point is that Jesus lived in his flesh as we should live it: in perfect and full reliance upon the Holy Spirit. So, his power to heal was a direct expression of his Messianic character, and not strictly an effect of his own divinity. The apocryphal stories of Jesus "miracles" or whatnot as a boy are stupid-stitious nonsense. He did what he did after being "anointed" at his baptism.

Nor does he seem to be saying that we should then expect to duplicate such things as Jesus did. (Although Jesus did say words to this effect: "Greater things than these shall ye do.") Jesus was subservient to his Father's will (as we should be) and so his miracles were the will of the Father, and not his independent will. Nor should we expect that we can somehow "tap in" to divine power and raise people from the dead if we are sufficiently "in touch" with the Spirit.

I don't read the pastor saying anything aberrant in the excerpt. I did not read the full article.

 

[Ivan]

I see Bethel is pentecostal.

 

[Contra_Mundum]

If he is a Pentecostal, then I have to add a layer of interpretation to the article. And though I stated that *we* shouldn't expect to do miracles, *he* may very well think that he and other Christians are in fact able to surrender sufficiently to the Spirit and do miracles.

Looks like a mega-church wannabe. Definitely charismatic. Culture-driven. Sr pastorS (note the plural) includes a man and his Wife (another problem). But when the Scriptures aren't enough, there's always room for new revelations... including permissibility of women pastors.

"I do not permit a woman to have authority" was Paul's culture, you see, and since the church is just an artifact of culture (and you know how the Spirit always gets himself in step with the culture! Hop to, Spirit!), we have to accommodate ourselves to every prevailing wind of doctrine (James was culturally hidebound too, doncha know).

Sorry, I should have at least taken a glance at the site, but I misread the OP. I would not recommend this church to anyone. Even if he was mostly accurate, doctrinally (and I do stand by my analysis of the excerpt).

 

[moselle]

Yes, the church itself...

If he is a Pentecostal, then I have to add a layer of interpretation to the article. And though I stated that *we* shouldn't expect to do miracles, *he* may very well think that he and other Christians are in fact able to surrender sufficiently to the Spirit and do miracles.

Looks like a mega-church wannabe. Definitely charismatic. Culture-driven. Sr pastorS (note the plural) includes a man and his Wife (another problem). But when the Scriptures aren't enough, there's always room for new revelations... including permissibility of women pastors.

"I do not permit a woman to have authority" was Paul's culture, you see, and since the church is just an artifact of culture (and you know how the Spirit always gets himself in step with the culture! Hop to, Spirit!), we have to accommodate ourselves to every prevailing wind of doctrine (James was culturally hidebound too, doncha know).

Sorry, I should have at least taken a glance at the site, but I misread the OP. I would not recommend this church to anyone. Even if he was mostly accurate, doctrinally (and I do stand by my analysis of the excerpt).

Bethel Church is part of the "Revival Alliance" - Bill Johnson, Todd Bently, and Co. My BIL tried at one point to get into a "discussion" about women in ministry...

However, when talking to my family about the Bible and faith, I try very hard to stick with very basic doctrinal teaching as to who God is, who man is, who Christ is, etc, without actually mentioning their "prospective" church and it's various "ministries". That's the sure-fire way to get them to smile inanely and say "well, you just don't get the "blessing" like we do"; besides, God miraculously healed my sister of a chronic disease, so that "proves everything", and end-of-conversation.

Anyway, I will keep searching and reading and praying that God will open their eyes and lead them out of this nonsense.