The Mosaic Covenant only a ministration of death?

[Jeri Tanner]

Though they be under the external administration of the covenant, they were never truly part of the Covenant (not IN Christ).

Does John 15:2 teach that there are those in covenant (in Christ, in a non-saving sense!) who will be removed?: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." This seems to accord with passages like Hebrews 6:4, for instance.

 

[Pergamum]

Does John 15:2 teach that there are those in covenant (in Christ, in a non-saving sense!) who will be removed?: "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." This seems to accord with passages like Hebrews 6:4, for instance.

Good question. What do you think?

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I think it does teach that and like other doctrines, it seems to flow from good and necessary consequence. In a true sense, there are partakers of the covenant who will be cut off.

 

[Dachaser]

Good question. What do you think?

The Lord is taking away the Christian in the sense of doing His work to "clean them up", and to have them become better fruit bearers. Part of that process might involve taking out to his wood shed for some personal chastising.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

The Lord is taking away the Christian in the sense of doing His work to "clean them up", and to have them become better fruit bearers. Part of that process might involve taking out to his wood shed for some personal chastising.

I believe David, that in John 15 the ones who don't bear fruit in v. 2 are the same ones who don't abide (remain) in Christ- they are withered, and men gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned (v. 6).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Dachaser]

I believe David, that in John 15 the ones who don't bear fruit in v. 2 are the same ones who don't abide (remain) in Christ- they are withered, and men gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned (v. 6).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You would be correct, as they would be cast off due to not really being tied into Jesus and never really saved.

 

[Pergamum]

I think it does teach that and like other doctrines, it seems to flow from good and necessary consequence. In a true sense, there are partakers of the covenant who will be cut off.

Partakers of the external administration or partakers of the substance? None can be true covenant-breakers of the substance for the NC cannot be broken. But many are cut off from the external administration of the covenant.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Of the external administration; I was speaking to your saying that those who are baptized but are really lost were never truly part of the covenant, or in Christ. Yet the Scriptures say that they have been in Christ, have been enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. My understanding is that baptism truly initiates one into a community with which God has made a covenant; Christ being the Head, a person baptized is truly, in that sense, baptized into Christ. But if he doesn't remain in Christ, he withers away and is gathered to be burned.

It's really not pertinent to the OP- I just noted that expression you used and immediately thought of the passages in John 15 and Hebrews 6, and others.

 

[Dachaser]

Of the external administration; I was speaking to your saying that those who are baptized but are really lost were never truly part of the covenant, or in Christ. Yet the Scriptures say that they have been in Christ, have been enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit. My understanding is that baptism truly initiates one into a community with which God has made a covenant; Christ being the Head, a person baptized is truly, in that sense, baptized into Christ. But if he doesn't remain in Christ, he withers away and is gathered to be burned.

It's really not pertinent to the OP- I just noted that expression you used and immediately thought of the passages in John 15 and Hebrews 6, and others.

The persons mentioned in Hebrews 6 were those who were part of the church, professed even to being a christian, but in the end, were never really saved, as shown by Judas being with/among the Apostles of Christ, and yet never was really part of His ministry and mot saved.
The only NC would be between God and those who received Jesus in a saving fashion.