The liberalization of the PCA

[TheInquirer]

I was going to say this very thing. To whom is J. D. Hall accountable, ecclesiastically? (Hint: No one. Hence his seemingly unrestrained and, as I see it, worsening behavior.)

An eldership is to be the check on the pastor in Baptist polity.

Trust me, Baptists don't have a corner on being jerks. There are plenty of Presbyterians. We're all sinners. That said, it is nice to have a court above the level of a session to whom charges may be brought.

I don't understand how we have certain church cultures that seem extremely zealous for God's truth and yet have little zeal for God's ethical standards. Somehow, love and truth have been separated as far as the east from the west in some corners of Christendom.

 

[Taylor]

An eldership is to be the check on the pastor in Baptist polity.

Ideally, yes. However, I have seen and heard of numerous situations where the elders actually have no power over a pastor in the event of misconduct or heresy. Just look at what's happening to James MacDonald at Harvest Bible Chapel in Illinois.

 

[Santos]

I have to say that I can certainly see the wisdom and the biblical argument for a higher court such as what you see in Presbyterian polity. But what does it matter if these courts fail to act in a timely manner or at all when it comes to the types of issues recognized in this video? Such as Revoice and the likes?

 

[RamistThomist]

Yes, it looks more like what I was thinking when I said West Monroe.

Yeah. It's on a service road off the busiest street in the region, so you get the best of real estate location, yet driving in and out is relatively painless.

 

[alexandermsmith]

I haven’t watched this yet, but wondering how these drifts occur unchecked?

Probably spent too long growing their beards, took their eyes off the ball.

 

[Romans922]

Finally found what I was looking for, who the Church planter is who is coming to Monroe, and what I believe is generally a typical (broad spectrum) method of church planting in the PCA. To clarify, this is not every church plant, there are good ones, but this one I believe is more 'normal'.

http://www.bondsinmonroe.com/?fbclid=IwAR1YetN-_y0F3RUyM3Oa7i_EBfotkSZXaWB081YXeRPdnrsuPyL_tzmh4uw

 

[RamistThomist]

Finally found what I was looking for, who the Church planter is who is coming to Monroe, and what I believe is generally a typical (broad spectrum) method of church planting in the PCA. To clarify, this is not every church plant, there are good ones, but this one I believe is more 'normal'.

http://www.bondsinmonroe.com/?fbclid=IwAR1YetN-_y0F3RUyM3Oa7i_EBfotkSZXaWB081YXeRPdnrsuPyL_tzmh4uw

I want to be nice, but I don't share their optimism.

 

[Edward]

and what I believe is generally a typical (broad spectrum) method of church planting in the PCA.

Yes, it looks to pretty much follow the model that I'm familiar with (and which has been successful.) The only two outliers are that it is for four years, and the non-ethnic plants around here tended to be on a 3 year timetable, and that he appears to be a few years older than I would have expected.

He should understand the culture and be able to speak the language. I'd be optimistic at this point.

 

[Romans922]

Yes, it looks to pretty much follow the model that I'm familiar with (and which has been successful.) The only two outliers are that it is for four years, and the non-ethnic plants around here tended to be on a 3 year timetable, and that he appears to be a few years older than I would have expected.

He should understand the culture and be able to speak the language. I'd be optimistic at this point.

Harris, the church planter, I know very well. I pastored the next town over from him for a time. He's not that old.

What does "successful" mean in a church plant, Edward?

 

[Edward]

What does "successful" mean in a church plant, Edward?

I would define it as particularization as a viable, self supporting congregation of the visible church.

 

[Romans922]

I would define it as particularization as a viable, self supporting congregation of the visible church.

You wouldn't include: biblical, faithful, and confessional (i.e. healthy)? You would put it only in terms of physical numbers and money, essentially (it seems like what you are implying)?

 

[Edward]

You wouldn't include: biblical, faithful, and confessional (i.e. healthy)? You would put it only in terms of physical numbers and money, essentially (it seems like what you are implying)?

If you need a definition of 'visible church', I would refer you to Chapter 25 of the Westminster Confession. If you have issues with that definition, we can discuss those.

 

[Romans922]

If you need a definition of 'visible church', I would refer you to Chapter 25 of the Westminster Confession. If you have issues with that definition, we can discuss those.

Brother, here we are talking about the liberalization of the PCA, a denomination that I would say is of the visible church on earth. The visible church can be found as pure or less pure on earth. I didn’t think I needed a definition of “visible church,” however, I’m unsure why you’d reference it here in response to me. Are you saying a “successful” Reformed or Presbyterian church plant to you is any that can be considered in the visible church? Perhaps you could clarify where you are going here.

 

[Edward]

Are you saying a “successful” Reformed or Presbyterian church plant to you is any that can be considered in the visible church?

No, just the ones that are viable and self supporting.

 

[Romans922]

No, just the ones that are viable and self supporting.

So then you just restated what you stated before. I'm not sure how that brings clarity to my question posed earlier.

So successful church plant to you...

You wouldn't include: biblical, faithful, and confessional (i.e. healthy)? You would put it only in terms of physical numbers and money, essentially (it seems like what you are implying)?

 

[Pilgrim]

I was going to say this very thing. To whom is J. D. Hall accountable, ecclesiastically? (Hint: No one. Hence his seemingly unrestrained and, as I see it, worsening behavior.)

Who is Tim Keller and various others who are under the microscope here accountable to, really? To give another example, does anybody believe that Tullian Tchvidjian was ever going to be called to account for his unconfessional antinomian teaching? Is it that some are too big to fail? Or is it that almost no one is liable to face consequences for false teaching in the PCA today? Would it need to be an error from the "right"?

As others have pointed out, Auburn Avenue only got into trouble because the Presbytery was violating procedure. Other men whose teaching is at least as bad have basically been exonerated by the SJC and/or their presbytery. Yet a man in a neighboring town who is a member of a PCA congregation and who is upset about SJWism recently told me he's satisfied that the FV has been taken care of in the PCA, apparently being under the impression that it really only had to do with Wilkins and refusing to be informed about other cases.

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[Edward]

So then you just restated what you stated before. I'm not sure how that brings clarity to my question posed earlier.

I am not seeing what of my definition you can't understand. You've said you understand 'visible church'. And self supporting seems to be self explanatory. Is 'viable' the concept you wish for me to explicate?

 

[Romans922]

I am not seeing what of my definition you can't understand. You've said you understand 'visible church'. And self supporting seems to be self explanatory. Is 'viable' the concept you wish for me to explicate?

No, I guess by your responses you've answered my questions clear enough. I am just shocked you would have that view.

 

[Pilgrim]

No, I guess by your responses you've answered my questions clear enough. I am just shocked you would have that view.

I think what Edward is referring to is the prospects of a PCA congregation (or I'd add, any further "conservative" Presbyterian congregation) "staying in business" in Monroe, regardless of whether they are BR, TR, SJW, EP or whatever. I'm not sure that he is making any statement at all with regard to what "camp" they may be in or how strictly confessional he thinks they should be.

Like Jacob, I'm not too sanguine about their prospects, although this is perhaps a more serious effort than what was done several years ago.

Admittedly, although I'm from an area less than 2 hours from there, I'm not that familiar with the Monroe area but am basing this on my knowledge of the region as a whole. The last I knew, the congregation in Shreveport, which has been active for maybe 30-40 years, is reduced to renting a space, although it is probably a better location for them geographically than their building was. And the other churches along the I-20 corridor are also fairly small, although perhaps they are all stable. In Arkansas, until recent years, there were hardly any NAPARC congregations besides maybe 3-4 PCA churches in the Northwest and LR areas combined, an ARP and something else that escapes me. There have been significant planting efforts of late, and evidently the same group, or the same group(Mid-South) plus others are setting their sights on Monroe.

 

[Romans922]

Like Jacob, I'm not too sanguine about their prospects, although this is perhaps a more serious effort than what was done several years ago.

I can't say it is a more serious effort. My friend who was the church planter in the last attempt was pretty serious and committed. I could say instead of being planted by the Presbytery (functionally), this church plant is being planted by the Mid-South Church Planting Network of the PCA (and you can see their hand pretty clearly in it).

 

[Pilgrim]

I can't say it is a more serious effort. My friend who was the church planter in the last attempt was pretty serious and committed. I could say instead of being planted by the Presbytery (functionally), this church plant is being planted by the Mid-South Church Planting Network of the PCA (and you can see their hand pretty clearly in it).

I was thinking specifically of the financial commitment they referred to. But maybe that was the case before too. Also, the sense that I get is that Calvinism isn't as "cool" as it was 10-15 years ago. But it's cool enough for the people who get into it, I suppose. But the YRR wave seems to have crested, and with Baptists becoming more Calvinistic (and I think there is at least one RB church in that area) there is less of a stream of Baptists into Presbyterian churches than there was in the 80s-2005 (roughly) it seems to me.

Being somewhat familiar with some of Mid-South's efforts in a different state, there seems to be a lot of "Hey, we're not as stuck up and legalistic as the Baptists. You can come drink with us" and not a whole lot more substance. In other words, it wasn't the kind of expository preaching that I was used to encountering 15-20 years ago in the average PCA congregation that I'd drop in on when out of town. I visited one congregation 3-4 times and the sermons seemed to be basically the same every time. I can't recall hearing anything that was way off, (unless maybe there was a hint at Tullian type antinomianism--I can't recall for sure at this point) but it didn't go very deep compared to some Baptist and non-denom preaching in the area. (I posted something about this a few years ago.) But maybe that was just that congregation or congregations and not all of them. (I can't remember whether or not I visited two of their plants (or replants) or if it was just one and I simply looked into another one online.)

 

[RamistThomist]

I can't say it is a more serious effort. My friend who was the church planter in the last attempt was pretty serious and committed. I could say instead of being planted by the Presbytery (functionally), this church plant is being planted by the Mid-South Church Planting Network of the PCA (and you can see their hand pretty clearly in it).

We both know the gentleman in question. He is a fine man. Part of the difficulty was that the charter church had unrealistic expectations, and then the charter admitted they were sort of out of their league.

There were other reasons, I am sure.

 

[Romans922]

We both know the gentleman in question. He is a fine man. Part of the difficulty was that the charter church had unrealistic expectations, and then the charter admitted they were sort of out of their league.

There were other reasons, I am sure.

Yep. Still waiting for your thoughts on this church plant, now that you have more information and it is 'your town'.

 

[RamistThomist]

While we all dislike AAPC, it is a big congregation (for a Presbyterian church, anyway). Even though it left the official Presbyterian world, its members are still with it. A church plant isn't going to swoop in and collect all the TRs who are upset with Auburn.

Monroe is a mix of Baptist (obviously), Church of Christ (we are the headquarters of Duck Dynasty), and some charismatics. The PCUSA church folded and most of their members went to the EPC church (my church). The EPC church is running around 250. AAPC is across the river running another 350. Calhoun is 20 minutes away, much smaller but doing better. Then there is John Knox another 45 minutes away.

I just don't see the demographics and the unique package the new church is bringing.

 

[RamistThomist]

Yep. Still waiting for your thoughts on this church plant, now that you have more information and it is 'your town'.

I don't want to speak forth a Word of negativity, but...yeah. It's targeting a community that depends on a business that won't be there. The Reformed minded folk in the area are already plugged into "Reformed" churches. (And if someone says the EPC isn't "reformed," that's fine. But the people who go there think it is, which amounts to the same thing, church growth wise).

 

[Pilgrim]

I don't want to speak forth a Word of negativity, but...yeah. It's targeting a community that depends on a business that won't be there. The Reformed minded folk in the area are already plugged into "Reformed" churches. (And if someone says the EPC isn't "reformed," that's fine. But the people who go there think it is, which amounts to the same thing, church growth wise).

Bingo.

If the plant is similar to the one I referred to earlier, it probably won't be much more Reformed than the local EPC congregation as Jacob has described it.

Some EPC congregations are at least middle of the road by PCA standards, and some are more Reformed than that, at least in this part of the country. Most people there probably don't care if there are female deacons, REs or even TEs in their denomination if it isn't in their congregation. As I noted above, unfortunately REs too often take a back seat to paid staff whether or not they are actually elders, so a lot of people don't care about that either so long as the main pastor isn't a woman. Even if they do care, based on this thread, does anybody think that the PCA is currently some kind of redoubt of confessionalism or even basic conservative evangelicalism? (That being said, some people will join a church with little to no knowledge of denominational politics but base it more on what they have for the kids or whatever.)

If I'm a member of a fairly solid EPC congregation, I'd be inclined to wait until all of this shakes out and see if there is going to be some kind of realignment before I commit to a PCA church plant, especially if there won't be a very clear difference with what goes on week to week with worship, preaching, and so on.

Many people outside of the PCA assume Michelle Higgins is a pastor or minister, and she's been referred to as such several times in articles or blog posts about her activities. How many people have left the SBC because of Beth Moore and Ann Graham Lotz? How many people would leave if they and other female Bible teachers were effectively silenced or if their pastor or elders said "No, we're not going to sanction that Bible study?"

Maybe over the next few years this PCA church planting effort can gather together a few dozen folks including some with deep pockets. That's seemingly the typical profile of a PCA (or other NAPARC) congregation in this part of the country.

I don't want to be too negative and admit I am looking at this with "worldly" or "fleshly" eyes and handicapping it the way I'd handicap the LSU Tigers chances this season. But it seems to me that that's what church growth strategy amounts to.