The Land of Israel

[blhowes]

Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

This and other similar verses lead some Christians to support the Jewish people's right to the land of Israel. Others say that the Palestinians have a right to the land because they were living there and were driven out of their homes during the last century.

Who do you think is the rightful owner of the land of Israel? The Jews? The Palestinians? Neither? Both? Whoever has the strongest army?

Bob

 

[Bladestunner316]

We will once Christ comes back and well get the rest of the planet

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Blade is right on :thumbup:

The meek shall inherit the earth. That means Palestine too. As to who owns the real estate in palestine now? Difficult to say. Both the Jews and the Arab palestinians have lived there for centuries. Note, they both have lived there together for centuries. It wasn't either/or. Even during the Moslem Arab rulers and the Turks, jews still lived there. The issue is more complicated than what the Palestinians or the Israeli's today would have us believe.
Scripturally, the Jews were cut off. So, their covenant promises about the land really don't apply anymore. Besides, those promises were given to teach us about Christ, not to provide an ethnic group with a plot of land forever.

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
10for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[2] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude--innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[3] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.
15And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

 

[blhowes]

When verses like Exodus 32:13 say "...all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and [b:0dacbbb65a]they shall inherit it for ever[/b:0dacbbb65a]", how is it that they inherited the land forever when later they were cut off and lost the land rights?

 

[pastorway]

define "seed" and you have your answer!

not all Israel is Israel!

PW

 

[blhowes]

[b:ba9cf84324]Pastor Way wrote:[/b:ba9cf84324]
define "seed" and you have your answer! not all Israel is Israel!

...So, the land belongs to the elect?

 

[pastorway]

but is it the land, or what the land points to? Abraham knew that it was not about the physical land, but about the promise that the land pointed toward!

[b:05d723194b]Hebrews 11[/b:05d723194b]
9By faith [u:05d723194b]he dwelt in the land of promise[/u:05d723194b] as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10for [u:05d723194b]he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God[/u:05d723194b].

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For those who say such things declare plainly that [u:05d723194b]they seek a homeland[/u:05d723194b]. 15And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But now [u:05d723194b]they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country[/u:05d723194b]. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for [u:05d723194b]He has prepared a city for them[/u:05d723194b].

[b:05d723194b]Revelation 21[/b:05d723194b]
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2Then I, John, saw [u:05d723194b]the holy city, New Jerusalem[/u:05d723194b], coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."


Abraham was in the Promised Land but still looking for "the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God," the New Jerusalem, the place that Jesus has gone to prepare for us!! (John 14:1-4).

Phillip

[Edited on 5-6-04 by pastorway]

 

[rembrandt]

pastorway, so no one has any land except for land that is to come? Are you saying that there are not immediate spiritual implications on earth (like there was in the OT)?

 

[BlackCalvinist]

[quote:faf743ecf6][i:faf743ecf6]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:faf743ecf6]
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and [b:faf743ecf6]all this land that I have spoken[/b:faf743ecf6] of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.[/quote:faf743ecf6]

What is 'all of this land that I have spoken' ? What land is God speaking of here ?

I think the focus on the identity of the 'seed' here is the wrong focus.....

 

[blhowes]

[b:d893b95d6f]Kerry wrote:[/b:d893b95d6f]
What is 'all of this land that I have spoken' ? What land is God speaking of here ?

I think it was the physical land of Canaan.

Deu 1:8 Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.

As Pastor Way quoted:
Hebrews 11:9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Abraham dwelt in the land of promise. It was the land that God promised to him and to his seed. While in the physical land of promise, he was also aware that God had a better city prepared for him.

I agree totally with what's been said about the physical land pointing to the spiritual Canaan and the blessing that go along with it. At the same time, I want to be careful not to say (unless shown to the contrary) that only the spiritual was in view when the promise was made. It seems clear to me that the physical land was part of the promise.

Exo 33:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:

Here, God took them out of Egypt and brought them into the land of Canaan. It is something that has already been accomplished, so it can't be just pointing to spiritual Canaan.

Am I missing something?

Bob

 

[kceaster]

I agree with Pastor Way!

I would also tell you that I am a Jew. According to the breaking down of the wall of separation and the fact that I am being placed into the Olive Tree from my wild beginnings, I am a Jew.

I have been (or actually still in the process) of being circumcised.

Do I have a right to the land of Canaan? No. But no REAL Jew has a right to it either, at least, not legally.

If they are looking to the Scripture to prove that they have a right to the land, they need to read the New Testament to see that what they should be looking for is not a plot of earth, but a plot of the new Heavens and the new Earth.

All things now being under the headship of Christ, and He having fulfilled all means that there is no claim to the physical plot of ground in Palestine.

So, I say let the Palestinians have it. It won't be theirs forever. When the New City comes down from heaven, I'm pretty sure they'll all be removed or crushed.

I am a Jew, and I am looking for the same city Abraham sought. If any man would be a Jew (inwardly), his sights must be set on Abraham's city as well.

In Christ,

KC

 

[blhowes]

[b:f7b80214c9]kc wrote:[/b:f7b80214c9]

I agree with Pastor Way!

This is a historic moment! Mark it on your calendars! That's 09:37 AM on 5-6-2004!

Before I mark up my calendar, do you want to go back and reread the thread one last time, just to be sure?

Bob

 

[sastark]

Has any one read this?

http://www.knoxseminary.org/Prospective/Faculty/WittenbergDoor/

I know it is "signed" by several of the members of PuritanBoard.com.

 

[kceaster]

Bob and Pastor Way....

[quote:80b34c84a6][i:80b34c84a6]Originally posted by blhowes[/i:80b34c84a6]
[b:80b34c84a6]kc wrote:[/b:80b34c84a6]

I agree with Pastor Way!

This is a historic moment! Mark it on your calendars! That's 09:37 AM on 5-6-2004!

Before I mark up my calendar, do you want to go back and reread the thread one last time, just to be sure?

Bob [/quote:80b34c84a6]



May my banana's never stop dancing for unity between brethren!

In Christ,

KC

 

[pastorway]

KC and I do often agree, especially on the really important things!

 

[Bladestunner316]

 

[blhowes]

[b:f07e9dc469]Pastor Way wrote:[/b:f07e9dc469]
KC and I do often agree, especially on the really important things!

Agreed, and only kidding, or course.

I too agree with what you're saying, I think. As I study again about dispensationalism so I can talk with my family about it, I'm going down the path of understanding what I've been taught by dispensationalists and then making sure that its a conviction that I have that what they teach is incorrect, and why (with emphasis on the why). I don't want to leave any stone unturned.

One of the things I'm thinking through now is the land promises. I think dispensationalists are right on in saying that God is faithful to keep his promises. God is faithful. What I'm doing now is taking a closer look at the promise, making sure I understand who the promise is made to, whether its conditional or unconditional, and basically what the scriptures say about how God fulfills his promise.

This morning, in my daily scripture reading, I came across some verses that are very interesting with regard to God's land promises. The verses are in Numbers, just after the spies come back from the land of Canaan. They lead me to think that the promise isn't as unconditional as I've been taught.

Num 14:30,31 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

Its interesting that it says God sware that these people would dwell in the land, but it also says that they won't come into the land. I don't have more to say about this verse now because I'll need to think about it for a while, but I think it will add some depth to my understanding of the promise that God made. It appears that God's promise is not unconditional, but rather is tied to the obedience or disobedience of the children of Israel (as is also evident in the rest of the OT where they either dwell in the land or are led captive out of the land, depending on their obedience/disobedience).

Another interesting verse is:
Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ye shall know my breach of promise. What an interesting statement. I've never quoted John Wesley before, but I like what he says about this verse:

[quote:f07e9dc469] Ye shall know my breach of promise - That as you have first broken the covenant between you and me, by breaking the conditions of it, so I will make it void on my part, by denying you the blessings promised in that covenant. So you shall see, that the breach of promise wherewith you charged me, lies at your door, and was forced from me by your perfidiousness.[/quote:f07e9dc469]

Thanks for indulging me as I think through God's promises.

Bob