The Jews in OT Prophecy

[Peairtach]

Obviously, being covenantal in our approach to Scripture, we assume that where Israel is spoken of in the prophets with reference to the Last Days, the Church/the New Covenant Israel is (usually) meant.

But for those of us that believe that Romans 11, although teaching that most of the ethnic Jews have been cut off from the CoG, yet they are being led by a special providence to being re-ingrafted into the CoG, are there any passages in the OT that relate to this?

5:1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. (Micah 5:1-4)

Is Micah 5:3, for instance, a reference to the salvation of the Jews?

 

[Peairtach]

Bump.

Is there anything in OT prophecy that speaks of the conversion of the Jews/reingrafting of them as individuals and a nation into the CoG/the Church and/or their return to Palestine-Israel?

 

[Iconoclast]

Richard I think this might fit the bill.....
[QUOTE
Isaiah 49
1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.

5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. 7Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

11And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.

12Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.

13Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

14But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.

15Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

16Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

17Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.

18Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.

19For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.

20The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.

21Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?

22Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

23And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

24Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?

25But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.

26And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.


][/QUOTE]

 

[Peairtach]

and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles,

Yes. It would seem that Israel here must be the Jews, because the Gentiles are mentioned additionally.

I don't know whether it is clear enough for a national restoration (?)

 

[TimV]

But how are a bunch of heathen a light to the Gentiles?

 

[Grillsy]

But how are a bunch of heathen a light to the Gentiles?

Well said.

 

[Peairtach]

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles,

It is the Servant of God that restores the preserved of Israel and is a light to the Gentiles, not the heathen Jews. The unconverted Jews aren't a light to anyone, but need the light of the Gospel.

 

[TimV]

How do Jews who convert to Christianity shed a different kind of light than Mexican Christians?

 

[Peairtach]

How do Jews who convert to Christianity shed a different kind of light than Mexican Christians?

Who said they did?

 

[jwithnell]

I really wrestled with Romans 11 last summer because of this. I found the John Murray commentary on the passage quite helpful.

In general, I don't know how you can separate, in time, the promises God makes to Israel as an ethnic identity from those made to all believers when reading the prophets without getting into a replacement theology position.

 

[Peairtach]

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

E.g. What does the above mean?

to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles,(Isaiah 49:6)

Aren't "the preserved of Israel" here, different to "the Gentiles"?

replacement theology position.

Well those Covenant theologians - like John Murray - that have a place for the Jews in their system aren't replacement theologians in the sense that Dispensationalists mean, but are displacement theologians in the sense that they believe that most of the ethnic Jews have been cut off from the CoG, cut out of the Abrahamic Olive Tree and out of the Church, yet God always promises to have some Jews in His Church, and also promises to reingraft them as a nation, and that this reingrafting will signal even greater progress in the Gospel in the World than before. I don't believe it is indicated that this has anything to do with some kind of special faith on the part of converted Jews or light from their witness.

Other Covenant Theologians, e.g. Palmer Robertson, have no particular place for the Jews in their system (apart from the fact that God didn't wipe them out in AD 70, and there may be, occasionally, a few Jews that are reingrafted into the Church) and some on this board have even denied that the Jews exist - but they may have existed when Paul was writing the Book of Romans!

 

[jwithnell]

Well those Covenant theologians - like John Murray - that have a place for the Jews in their system aren't replacement theologians in the sense that Dispensationalists mean, but are displacement theologians in the sense that they believe that most of the ethnic Jews have been cut off from the CoG, cut out of the Abrahamic Olive Tree and out of the Church, yet God always promises to have some Jews in His Church, and also promises to reingraft them as a nation, and that this reingrafting will signal even greater progress in the Gospel in the World than before.

That's my point: promises such as Hosea 3:5 "Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the Lord their God and [even] David their king' and they will come trembling to the Lord and His goodness in the last days." applies to the gospel being extended to the ends of the earth under the new covenant and ethnic Jews who also claim Christ "in the last days."

Other Covenant Theologians, e.g. Palmer Robertson, have no particular place for the Jews in their system

... that's part of what caused me so much heartburn last summer. My understanding of covenant theology initially came from Mr. Robertson; but I was hearing excellent exegesis pointing to a specific, later salvation for the Jews.

Your reference to Nation has me a little confused. I see individual Jews turning to Christ in a large number, but not an earthly, recognizable national identity.

 

[Iconoclast]

Isa.49 speaks of The Servant of The Lord.....gathering His people, first a remnant, then gentiles worldwide.This fits very nicely into a post-mill, or amill view.

verse 8 is quoted,in 2 cor 6:2

2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

verse 6 is quoted in Acts 13;

45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Peairtach]

Quote from Jean

Your reference to Nation has me a little confused. I see individual Jews turning to Christ in a large number, but not an earthly, recognizable national identity.

Well the reason that many see that is because of e.g.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Rom 11:12)

Has the relatively small number of Jews that have been believers in Christ down the centuries and those numbers of Jews that have been reingrafted down the centuries had a comparable - or greater - beneficial effect on the Gentiles, than their apostasy had? Not so far.

Quote from Anthony

verse 8 is quoted,in 2 cor 6:2
2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

But the use of this text in II Corinthians 6:2 isn't relevant to the Jews or their (possible) restoration at all - would you agree?

I'll get back on Isaiah 49, and some other texts, later, Anthony.

I think the problem - or one of the problems - is that everyone will agree that there are texts in the OT prophets and elsewhere in the OT predicting the apostasy of the Jews at the time of Christ.

But in the New Covenant, Israel - the Israel of God - is expanded to include all Jews and Gentiles who accept Jesus as Christ and King of Israel, and their children.

Meanwhile the vast majority of the ethnic Israel/Jews have been cut off. Yet Romans 11 - according to many Covenant theologians - indicates an ongoing place for them in redemptive history.

But when we come back to the Old Testament, we know that "Israel" (often?) refers to the Church. So is there anything that refers to the restoration of the Jews, or can anything be identified given the fact that the true Israel - the Israel of God - in the prophets is the Church.

 

[Peairtach]

Quote from Jean

That's my point: promises such as Hosea 3:5 "Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the Lord their God and [even] David their king' and they will come trembling to the Lord and His goodness in the last days." applies to the gospel being extended to the ends of the earth under the new covenant and ethnic Jews who also claim Christ "in the last days."

For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without] teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.(Hosea 3:4-5)

Yes, but this may be a passage, that for those of us that take John Murray's approach to Romans 11 rather than Palmer Robertson's gives us thought whether this may be referring to the conversion of the Jews.

It can't be referring to the period from the time of Hosea to the time of Christ, because although Israel were without a king, without a prince, without an image and without teraphim, they weren't without a sacrifice or an ephod. It can't be referring to the true/believing New Covenant Israel of God, the Church, because we have a king and a prince, a sacrifice and an ephod.

So is it referring to apostate ethnic Jewry - cut-off - and yet to be ingrafted?

In general, I don't know how you can separate, in time, the promises God makes to Israel as an ethnic identity from those made to all believers when reading the prophets without getting into a replacement theology position.

Do you mean that you shouldn't interpret the prophets in such a way as to exclude ethnic Israel when "Israel" is referred to, or to exclude the Israel of God/the Church when "Israel" is referred to? or both?

Surely it depends on context. Clearly sometimes when "Israel" is being referred to in the prophets, it is talking about the apostasy of Israel at the time of Christ. Both those who believe in a national conversion of Jewry and those who don't would agree on this.

 

[jwithnell]

I would think a national identity would limit the number even more than seeing many Jews throughout the nations coming to Christ. I definitely read this as an event yet to come.

 

[Peairtach]

I would think a national identity would limit the number even more than seeing many Jews throughout the nations coming to Christ. I definitely read this as an event yet to come.

When I talk about national conversion, I'm not talking about the nation-state of Israel but about Jews in Israel and throughout the world.

I believe that Romans 11 indicates that there will come a time when the Jews will be largely Christian rather than heathen, and that this will coincide with even greater progress for the Gospel than there has been since their apostacy and rejection of Christ as a people in the First Century.

I don't tie this to any supposed inherent superiority of converted Jews to converted Gentiles, which the New Testament denies, but just because of the testimony of Romans 11.

 

[jwithnell]

Yes, I ended up drawing a similar conclusion from Romans 11 ...