MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
I know some Reformed Baptists in England who say Ahh-men...
The differences between Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians
- Thread starter Stratiotes
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I know some Reformed Baptists in England who say Ahh-men...
Rich, I am genuinely happy that your life is bearing fruit through Presbyterianism. I am not trying to minimize the positive affect Presbyterianism is having in your life when I state I have experienced a similar work of grace in my time of being a Baptist. But I wonder whether it really has as much to do with being a Baptist as it does with being discipled, mentored, and influenced by godly men who have invested in my life over the years. Like you I am convinced, by Biblical warrant, that the form of church government I hold to is correct, but that alone does not account for any spiritual growth that has occurred in my life over the past 30 years. While I do not consider any form of church government to be perfect (because of human weakness), I do see the problems inherent in Independency. Identifying problems is the first step in addressing them.
Marie, if you ever visit the Baltimore-Washington are feel free to join us for worship. You will be invited to participate in our responsive reading each Lord's Day. We do not read the Confession, Catechism, or any Creed during worship. We also do not wear gowns or collars. I would not look good in a gown anyway.
Dan,
Yes, well, from the Baptist perspective that is stating the obvious. But let us keep this from becoming a Baptism debate. Come to think of it, it has been a while since we have had one of those. I kind of like the peace and quiet.
Stratiotes
Puritan Board Freshman
Ok, Bill. God bless you
Soli Deo Gloria
Soli Deo Gloria
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
Yes, because there has never been an adult who was baptized and later left the faith. To borrow from Josh, borrowing from Pastor Ruddell, where can we pick up a pair of those regeneration goggles you have?
MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
I'd love to come visit sometime! I definitely will if I'm in the area. I actually thought about it last time I went north, but it was further than we wanted to drive (I went once again to Covenant Baptist in Lumberton! Good brethren there!) That's great about the responsive reading- we did that once with Psalm 136 when we got to it in our Psalter reading- I enjoyed it immensely!
MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
The Reformed Baptist (in the broader sense) SBC church I formerly attended did. They pulled from mainly the Baptist and Heidelberg Catechisms. Of course, growing up Presbyterian, we recited the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. And I worshiped with a conservative Anglican church when I visited New Mexico a couple weeks ago. It had a lot of Presbyterian elements to it. I found the language of the Communion service particularly beautiful. It had been awhile since I'd been in that type of high-church setting.
I love being back at my Reformed Baptist church though! And my pastors offer beautiful words, and we sing beautiful words, before the Lord's Supper as well!
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Gforce9
Puritan Board Junior
Yes, because there has never been an adult who was baptized and later left the faith. To borrow from Josh, borrowing from Pastor Ruddell, where can we pick up a pair of those regeneration goggles you have?
Good point, Andrew. I once had a pair I got from guy sporting a trench coat downtown Chicago who also was selling Rolex watches. I purchased a "Rolex" and the goggles for $25. The goggles really worked good when I sat down to watch Robert Schuller, Creflo Dollar, and Benny Hinn on TV. I will never reveal what I saw. Regeneration goggles are real!................
Stratiotes
Puritan Board Freshman
That is true Andrew, some adults will be baptized with water and are not regenerated. Never being known by Christ. Just as some will be baptized as infants.They will grow up and live in sin and are never known by Christ.The man on the cross next to Jesus, was he baptized??? Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"
This is the baptism that counts Andrew. We both agree on that.
This is the baptism that counts Andrew. We both agree on that.
irresistible_grace
Puritan Board Junior
Presbyterianism is NOT a denomination; it is a branch of Reformed Protestantism!
Presbyterianism & Presbyterian Theology emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the authority of the Scriptures, and the necessity of grace through faith in Christ.
Presbyterians believe that Scripture is clear on the the sacrament of Baptism...
We are Credo Baptist first & foremost
Baptism is NOT to be administered to any that are outside of the visible church until they profess faith in Christ & obedience to His commands...
BUT we also believe that Scripture teaches Household Baptism & that covenant children are to receive the sign & seal of the covenant...
the infants of such as are members of the visible church (members being defined as those who have professed faith & obedience to Christ) are to be baptized.
Hence, in the Great Commission,
Presbyterianism is named for its biblical Church government (which is articulated beautifully in post #27)
I say this as one who has been a Presbyterian since late '08 (Baptist before that most of my life)!
Presbyterianism & Presbyterian Theology emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the authority of the Scriptures, and the necessity of grace through faith in Christ.
Presbyterians believe that Scripture is clear on the the sacrament of Baptism...
We are Credo Baptist first & foremost
Baptism is NOT to be administered to any that are outside of the visible church until they profess faith in Christ & obedience to His commands...
BUT we also believe that Scripture teaches Household Baptism & that covenant children are to receive the sign & seal of the covenant...
the infants of such as are members of the visible church (members being defined as those who have professed faith & obedience to Christ) are to be baptized.
Hence, in the Great Commission,
comes before
Presbyterianism is named for its biblical Church government (which is articulated beautifully in post #27)
I say this as one who has been a Presbyterian since late '08 (Baptist before that most of my life)!
Stratiotes
Puritan Board Freshman
I must say now, I am very convicted of the sin of pride. So I ask all the people that I have offended for forgiveness. Wanting to be right on something and "puffing up" trying to prove something that has nothing to do with Salvation, other than public profession . How am I glorifying God in all this??? I have such a finite mind. Gal 6:3. For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. Sorry all, never should have even talked about something so unimportant.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Soli Deo Gloria,
One Little Nail
Puritan Board Sophomore
You're no daisy at all.
Sent from my iPhone killing Galaxy S-4
Dan,
Discussing baptism is not insignificant. It is a very important doctrine. It is a matter of obedience to God. Both sides believe they are right. Obviously that is not the case. It is not the discussion of baptism that is prideful, but rather the manner in which we discuss it that may reveal pride. You can apply that rule to the discussion of any biblical doctrine.
Have a blessed Lord's Day.
Sent from my iPhone killing Galaxy S-4
One Little Nail
Puritan Board Sophomore
I would like to call you Baptists to Order,I Believe we are discussing the The Theological Differences between
"Reformed" Baptists & Presbyterian not whether Individual Presbyterian Church's have betrayed their Heritage
& brought in Non-Confessional practises into their Worship, The RPW does not have permit these practises so
these particular Church's who are practicing these things are not in Question here or Relevant to the conversation.
These are Prelatical Practises & have no place in pure, well Governed & Biblically Ordered Presbyterian Church's.
Except for the Catechisms,non sanctioned means are a strawman argument ,please get back to the Argument
One Little Nail
Puritan Board Sophomore
You're no daisy at all.
Sent from my iPhone killing Galaxy S-4
One Little Nail
Puritan Board Sophomore
Presbyterianism is NOT a denomination; it is a branch of Reformed Protestantism!
Presbyterianism & Presbyterian Theology emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the authority of the Scriptures, and the necessity of grace through faith in Christ.
Presbyterians believe that Scripture is clear on the the sacrament of Baptism...
We are Credo Baptist first & foremost
Baptism is NOT to be administered to any that are outside of the visible church until they profess faith in Christ & obedience to His commands...
BUT we also believe that Scripture teaches Household Baptism & that covenant children are to receive the sign & seal of the covenant...
the infants of such as are members of the visible church (members being defined as those who have professed faith & obedience to Christ) are to be baptized.
Hence, in the Great Commission,
comes before
Presbyterianism is named for its biblical Church government (which is articulated beautifully in post #27)
I say this as one who has been a Presbyterian since late '08 (Baptist before that most of my life)!
Hear,Hear Beautifully spoken I was almost afraid that we were wasting our
time with these Baptists till I remembered that I used to be one myself
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One Little Nail
Puritan Board Sophomore
I would like to concur with Bruce in Post #18 & would like to say that Hermeneutic & Interpretation
really is the crux of the matter as a former Baptist I look back & see that i really didn't understand
the scriptures correctly or how to interpret them the Credo understanding rests on the analogy of
Faith this is exactly what the confession means when it says " by good and necessary consequence may
be deduced from Scripture" Baptists I find can't grasp this concept even from personal experience
my own History as I've mentioned, & also had an Old Scottish friend who had Baptistic views but
attended a Presbyterian Church would question this quote,deny it & ridicule it.but never understand it!
the Baptist mindset is more literalistic in its make up which can be seen & shown by the fact that
they tend to embrace Pre-Millennialism as a doctrine & non reformed Baptists almost always tend
to be adherents to heretical Dispensationalism, whether its the Acts 2, Acts 9, Acts 13, Acts 28 or
Progessive Dispensational guise, due to their heavy use of Literalism, particularly in Prophetic
Interpretation which is a real disaster as it leads to modified Jesuit Futurism schemes & Pre-Millennialism.
remember those dallas T.S. boys were always extolling the Literal Hermeneutic.
really is the crux of the matter as a former Baptist I look back & see that i really didn't understand
the scriptures correctly or how to interpret them the Credo understanding rests on the analogy of
Faith this is exactly what the confession means when it says " by good and necessary consequence may
be deduced from Scripture" Baptists I find can't grasp this concept even from personal experience
my own History as I've mentioned, & also had an Old Scottish friend who had Baptistic views but
attended a Presbyterian Church would question this quote,deny it & ridicule it.but never understand it!
the Baptist mindset is more literalistic in its make up which can be seen & shown by the fact that
they tend to embrace Pre-Millennialism as a doctrine & non reformed Baptists almost always tend
to be adherents to heretical Dispensationalism, whether its the Acts 2, Acts 9, Acts 13, Acts 28 or
Progessive Dispensational guise, due to their heavy use of Literalism, particularly in Prophetic
Interpretation which is a real disaster as it leads to modified Jesuit Futurism schemes & Pre-Millennialism.
remember those dallas T.S. boys were always extolling the Literal Hermeneutic.
Bill The Baptist
Puritan Board Graduate
As Bill pointed out earlier, we are now enjoying a "pax baptismus" of sorts here on the PB. Let's not ruin it by making such blanket assertions.
JP Wallace
Puritan Board Sophomore
OK...now let me swing my judgment gavel to in relation to your later comment. The OP is about the differences between RB's and Presbyterians, not Baptists and Presbyterians and so when you write...
...I must through back your own judgment. Since an RB is defined by the 1689 Confession of Faith (at least on this board) your bringing up these things is largely to use your own words 'irrelevant to the conversation' since the confession precludes dispensationalism and quite probably premillenialism as well. You say baptists (as opposed to the non-reformed type) tend to premillenialism - I think that is very far from the actualy truth of the matter. The tendency is to amillenialism and against post-millenialism. Premillenialism probably, and dispensationalism definitely, are to quote you not 'relevant to the conversation'
Furthermore when you write that when you were a baptist you didn't understand the bible or how to intrepret it, it looks mightly like you
a) think everyone who is baptist is as ignorant as you were and
b) that baptists. broad brush, still don't understand the bible or how to interpret it.
Please a) don't impute your ignorance to everyone else and expect that argument to be take seriously
b) don't paint with such a broad brush
c) please do stick to the parameters of the OP the question is about the differences between RB's i.e. confessional and confessional Presbyterians.
BTW it is usual for moderators to call to order.
Josh Williamson
Puritan Board Freshman
Yes, those nasty baptists. You'd never see someone who holds presbyterianism embracing the 'evils' of premillennialism. I would never expect to see anyone like Andrew Bonar, Horatio Bonar, Francis Schaffer, or James Montgomery Boice (just to name a few) hold to such doctrines
The majority of Reformed Baptists I know would be in the amillennial camp, although there seems to be a growing number embracing postmillennialism.
There are differences what constitutes Christian behavior in certain areas correct? Alcohol abstinence or even prohibition is more common among the Reformed Baptists from what I've seen.
Subjective and not accurate.
MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
And then tonight there was me, who ended the hymn "My faith looks up to Thee" with a heartily sung "Ay-men." I don't know why I didn't sing "Ah-men" like usual and like everyone else- I think it was because it was so much a prayer of my heart that subconsciously I did what I normally do at the end of one, but sung it!
davdavis
Puritan Board Freshman
I'm asking out of Curiosity and not trying to pick a fight. Do Reformed Baptist have a concept of the "visible Church"? In my interaction with RBs (sorry)I don't see any discussion of the concept.
To me infant Baptism, like Circumcision in the OT, is the sign of Visible Membership in the covenant community. In both visible members were not necessarily elect. It seems to me the alternative would be like the show they did about the Amish some years ago where the Amish encouraged their children to "experiment" with the world before deciding to enter the community. As to Church Gov. the problem with the Baptist is the larger Church has no way to discipline straying congregations. The big problem in Presbyterianism is it has the courts but often lacks the courage to use them.
David
PCA
Montgomery, AL
To me infant Baptism, like Circumcision in the OT, is the sign of Visible Membership in the covenant community. In both visible members were not necessarily elect. It seems to me the alternative would be like the show they did about the Amish some years ago where the Amish encouraged their children to "experiment" with the world before deciding to enter the community. As to Church Gov. the problem with the Baptist is the larger Church has no way to discipline straying congregations. The big problem in Presbyterianism is it has the courts but often lacks the courage to use them.
David
PCA
Montgomery, AL
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In your interaction with "PB's"? What are you using PB as an acronym for here? If you mean paedobaptists then I'll answer after I make sure you did not intend to type "RBs".
MarieP
Puritan Board Senior
Particular Baptists? Primitive Baptists? Paedobaptists? Puritan Boarders (much more dangerous than surf boarders, but without the tan- except for Pergy)?
Actually, one of my elders just preached on the parable of the 10 virgins and the parable of the talents. He used the phrase "professing visible church"- those who outwardly profess faith in Christ, but among whom there may be (and are) false believers.
That's because we don't believe that the larger Church is to discipline straying congregations. There can be councils of multiple churches that meet to discuss issues, as in Acts 15. But, under Christ, there is no hierarchy above a local church's board of elders (also called pastors). In Christ's letters of warning to the churches, there's no indication that there is any obligation above the elders and people of the church repenting (though surely the other churches reading the letters could have come alongside if possible to help).
Bill The Baptist
Puritan Board Graduate
Clearly there are advantages and disadvantages to both forms of church government. Presbyterian government allows for better vetting of pastors and fosters and atmosphere of doctrinal accountability. Of course, as you pointed out, this only applies if the authority is actually exercised. The biggest advantage to congregational government is the freedom it allows in terms of who the church associates with. If the SBC were to pass a resolution recommending the ordination of homosexuals, our church would be completely free to disassociate with the SBC. Such a move would be much more complicated for a Presbyterian church. One thing that I do think that Baptists and Presbyterians can agree on is that both of these forms of government are superior to the Episcopal model.
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