The Baptism of John and the Ecclesiastical Ordinance

[KMK]

From a paedo perspective, what significance, if any, does John's baptism as a 'fruit of repentance' have toward the sacrament of baptism?

 

[DonP]

none

I think it was another calling to cleanse for the Jews .

A last chance to sprinkle themselves clean and make ready the way of the Messiah.

They did these ceremonial sprinkling cleanses before major events and when called to repent.

Lev 14:7 And he shall sprinkle it seven times on him who is to be cleansed from the leprosy, and shall pronounce him clean, NKJV

Lev 14:51 and he shall take the cedar wood, the hyssop, the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times. 52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird and the running water NKJV

Lev 16:19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel. NKJV

Num 8:7 Thus you shall do to them to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purification on them, and let them shave all their body, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean. NKJV

Num 19:19 The clean person shall sprinkle the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day; and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, wash his clothes, and bathe in water; and at evening he shall be clean. NKJV

Isa 52:15 So shall He sprinkle many nations. NKJV

Ezek 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. NKJV

These were ceremonial purifications and I think the prophet John did the last one.

 

[KMK]

Is there an assumption that John's disciples were baptized again with the sacramental baptism?

 

[Contra_Mundum]

I think that question has to be answered according to whether or not one sees John's baptism and Christian baptism as the same thing, hence no repetition necessary. I think they were different, but there's division on that point.

Were there people baptized on Pentecost who had been baptized by John? Acts 2:38 says: "And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you..."

I generally think that in our (PB) circles, we don't speak of baptism as a "fruit" of repentance, as though it were proper to speak of the one as a product of the other. John the Baptist, remember, was ministering in the context of the professing church when he called on those people to submit as showing a sign of their heart-attitude.

 

[KMK]

I generally think that in our (PB) circles, we don't speak of baptism as a "fruit" of repentance, as though it were proper to speak of the one as a product of the other.

Are you saying the Reformed Presbyterian position is that baptism is NOT a "fruit" of repentance, but there are other paedos who disagree? Is this the Puritan Presbyterian position? Is this an area of intramural debate?

WLC Q. 165. What is baptism?

A. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ hath ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,[1058] to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself,[1059] of remission of sins by his blood,[1060] and regeneration by his Spirit;[1061] of adoption,[1062] and resurrection unto everlasting life;[1063] and whereby the parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church,[1064] and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord’s.[1065]

The Puritan Presbyterians did seem to see some kind of connection between the sacrament and repentance and remission of sins as preached by John. The proof text for 'remission of sins by his blood' is Mark 1:4.

Mark 1:4. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Not arguing just wanting to understand the Reformed perspective.

 

[OPC'n]

Jesus was baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness. He obviously wasn't baptized after Pentecost. If Jesus was baptized (and circumcised and brought sacrifices to be offered etc) to fulfill all righteousness and to fulfill the law, wouldn't John's baptism be the same as ours? The Holy Spirit baptizes and you're saved. But John's baptisms didn't save but only brought people under the covenant. I see it as him exchanging circumcision for baptism

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Ken,
I don't know at what level there might be disagreement. WLC there says: "sign and seal of"... remission/forgiveness of sins. A sign doesn't have the same relationship to something prior as fruit does. I can put up a sign on an empty lot that says, "home of Brewster," and then build my house. That sign is not technically a fruit of the house, although it has a very real relationship to it, even before the thing is built.

A "fruit" would be something that is a product of something prior. We don't simply point to a baptism, and say "there's the fruit of that man's repentance." Only, I'd say, in an attenuated sense could be said that repentance produced a Christian baptism.

On the other hand, given baptist presuppositions, I think that such a connection demands less demonstration, because it is often said among them that "baptism is the first act of obedience of the Christian."

Again, I go back to the Jordan. John is speaking (by my rights) to members of the church, OT style. He's calling them away from their selfish, backsliding ways. As the result of a will to adopt the stance of a penitent, the person is baptized. That, it seems to me, shows a clear connection between the repentance, and the willingness to be washed clean by the water. John is saying, in other words, "Show your repentance by getting washed outwardly, and God will wash your hearts." It's a very clear connection.

I don't hear us (PBs) talking to the unsaved this way: "Come to Christ, and be baptized as a fruit of your repentance." Nor, do I hear us saying to the newly converted, "Come be baptized, as a result of your repentance." It seems to me that we adopt a more "Pauline" expression of a gospel call, and a call to be baptized more along the Pauline declarations regarding union with Christ, esp. his death.

Just look at Acts 19:3-5. Judge that situation and the words Paul uses with his words to the Philippian Jailer, 16:31. No mention of baptism there, although it occurs just after. And doesn't Paul say how few people he personally baptized, 1Cor.1:14? If baptism was so closely associated with the gospel call and repentance, I would think he must have baptized far more than he did. Baptism does not figure much in the gospel call to people who were outside the church. But Paul DOES mention it in the synagogue in Pisidian Antioch, Acts 13:24.

Baptism is a "sign" stating (as one part) that God remits/forgives sin. He does that spiritual work for those who have faith and repentance (conversion). The Mk.1:4 reference establishes a connection between baptism, repentance, and remission. But to say that the relation is best described as "fruit" seems a stretch.