TAKE THE QUIZ - Sin and truth across cultures

[Pergamum]

How Do You See the truth?

As a Christian in a cross-cultural setting, you will need to learn the differences between those elements essential to the church in every culture and those elements which are not.

The following is a list of issues that Protestants in various denominations have felt important.

Separate all the items that follow into two categories, based on these definitions:

Essential: These items (commands, practices, customs) are essential for all believers throughout the world to believe and adhere to. These are core, unchanging items. Mark “E” next to the category.

Negotiable: These items (commands, practices, customs) may or may not be valid for the church in every culture and setting and I would not impose my preferences on the host culture. Mark “N” next to the category.


Be able to defend your reasoning.

____ 1. Inerrancy in the Bible.
____ 2. Greet each other with a holy kiss.
____ 3. Salvation in Christ alone.
____ 4. Do not go to court to settle issues between Christians.
____ 5. Eternal security.
____ 6. Do not eat meat used in pagan ceremonies.
____ 7. A polygamist cannot be an elder or pastor in the congregation.
____ 8. Women in the assembly should be veiled when praying or speaking.
____ 9. Muslim believers cannot remain in the mosque.
____ 10. Wash feet at the Lord’s Supper (Eucharist).
____ 11. Lay on hands for ordination.
____ 12. Tobacco is forbidden for Christians.
____ 13. Sing without musical accompaniment.
____ 14. Forbid initiation rituals such as female circumcision, scarification of the body.
____ 15. Abstain from eating blood.
____ 16. Abstain from fornication.
____ 17. Forbid teaching from the Koran or other holy books.
____ 18. Share the Lord’s Supper (Eucharist) together.
____ 19. Use only real win and unleavened bread for your Eucharist meals.
____ 20. Anoint with oil for healing.
____ 21. Women are not to teach men.
____ 22. Women are not to wear braided hair, gold, or pearls.
____ 23. Men are not to have long hair.
____ 24. Do not drink wine at all.
____ 25. Slavery is permissible if you treat slaves well.
____ 26. Remain single.
____ 27. Seek the gift of tongues.
____ 28. Seek the gift of healing.
____ 29. Lift your hands when you pray.
____ 30. People who don’t work, don’t eat.
____ 31. Have a private “devotional time” every day.
____ 32. Say Amen at the end of prayers.
____ 33. Appoint elders and deacons in every congregation.
____ 34. Elect the leaders.
____ 35. Confess sins one to another.
____ 36. Confess sins privately to God.
____ 37. Give at least ten percent of your income/goods/crops to God.
____ 38. Construct a building for worship.
____ 39. Confess Christ publicly by means of baptism.
____ 40. Be baptized by immersion.
____ 41. Be baptized as an adult.
____ 42. Be baptized as an infant.
____ 43. Do not be a polygamist.
____ 44. Do not divorce your spouse for any reason.
____ 45. Do not divorce your spouse except for adultery.


Total “E” ________________ Total “N”_____________

Personal Reflection

 

[SRoper]

For the most part it's a thought provoking list. Some of them are more interesting when they are juxtaposed with another. For example, I'm not sure I can give a good reason why I'd put "N" for "2. Greet each other with a holy kiss" and "E" for "11. Lay on hands for ordination."

 

[smhbbag]

16 E's. 29 N's.


A few I have questions about for clarity. For example:

____ 14. Forbid initiation rituals such as female circumcision, scarification of the body.

Female circumcision should certainly be forbidden and dismissed, as it fundamentally differs from male circumcision, and is cruel beyond measure. Additionally, any worldview that supports it must contradict the word of the Lord concerning marriage and the gifts of pleasure.

Scarification of the body in certain other ways should not be forbidden by the church. But, scarification must not be done as an official initiation ceremony/rite of the church.

There were only a few like this, but I'm usually unable to complete quizzes like this as the questions aren't precise or nuanced enough. This was put together pretty well.

 

[Pergamum]

Jeremy: Is female circumcision "cruel beyuond all measure" and why more cruel than male circumcision? They get it done as a baby usually and do not feel it and it happens very quickly. Male circumcision is unneeded in this day and is - literally - cutting of the flesh - just like mutilation or body scarring. Why do we not abhor this too? Whole cultures do female circumcision as babies.


ALL;
I guess a different thread could be opened to dicuss almost all of these issues.

One thing I am expecting is that TRs will pride themselve on the number of E's they have and BRs will pride themselve on the number of Ns.


For those that pick mostly E's do you see the N aspects of each of these items? I.e. how the practice could vary across cultures.

For those that pick mostly N, do you see what universal principal is at state that must be defended?

 

[smhbbag]

Jeremy: Is female circumcision "cruel beyuond all measure" and why more cruel than male circumcision? They get it done as a baby usually and do not feel it and it happens very quickly. Male circumcision is unneeded in this day and is - literally - cutting of the flesh - just like mutilation or body scarring. Why do we not abhor this too? Whole cultures do female circumcision as babies.

We must be talking about two very different things. Wikipedia, I just found out, describes at least 3 different types of female circumcision. I was only familiar with the grotesque versions that did not leave certain important parts intact.

If the question refers to the benign type (that I now know exists), and allows for full marital enjoyment, then I have no objection to this being done by Christians, as long as it is not required by the church.

From your response, I'll assume this is the case, and so we're probably in agreement.

 

[Pergamum]

SMHBBAG: Yep.


How about the broader issues. This is a hard list to go down. If you were planting a church, how many of these items would you die for and how many are negotiable...and why?

 

[py3ak]

I am not sure the results are going to reflect the breakdown between BR and TR. For instance, I got 17 E, 28 N (and my wife was pretty close to my answers); but I put down "n" for things that I disagreed with pretty strongly as well. I would hardly consider practicing those things to be essential --but I might consider NOT practicing them to be essential. So on #8 --I am not going to insist on women being veiled when speaking in the assembly, because I am going to insist on women not speaking in the assembly!

 

[Pergamum]

Hmmmm.... perhaps you are right. There is a wide gap between an ideal situation and a situation in which some people can work towards improving. I.e. you believe one thing, but still place it as negotiable because it is not as essential as soteriology,etc. I am in much the same boat....I know what I blieve fairly closely, but can work with others quite broadly.

 

[py3ak]

Some are very easy: the uniqueness of the Bible and the uniqueness of Christ are entirely non-negotiable, are of foundational importance, and should be insisted on from day one. Appointing elders is very important, and really ought to happen at some point: but it's not going to happen on day one (no one meets the qualifications: at the very least, they are all novices), so you may not talk about that until day 2. And since the question included deacons, and I'm not sure that having deacons is a requirement in a small church, or one that is just getting started, obviously I couldn't be very firm about that question.

In regard to working with other people, an awful lot is dependent on context. If someone who would let women speak if duly veiled invites me to preach, I'm working with them, in one sense: if I invite them to preach, I'm working with them in another sense: if I plant a work and turn it over to them, I'm working with them in still another sense: and if we collaborate to plant and pastor a church, then I'm working with them in a fourth sense. I think I would preach for people whom I wouldn't have to preach for me; I think I would have someone speak for me to whose oversight I would not commend my people (many Presbyterians will have a Baptist preach, or vice versa). So there are different levels of cooperation, and that makes the question of working with others rather complex.

 

[Coram Deo]

I have 28 "E"s

I have 16 "N"s

I have 1 "?"s which is Question 25. Slavery is permissible if you treat slaves well.

This depends if you are talking about Manstealing or Indentured Servitude..
Which one are you defining here....

 

[ADKing]

__E__ 1. Inerrancy in the Bible.
__N__ 2. Greet each other with a holy kiss.
__E__ 3. Salvation in Christ alone.
___E_ 4. Do not go to court to settle issues between Christians.
__E__ 5. Eternal security.
__Paul qualifies this in I Corinthians. It is E to follow is directions there__ 6. Do not eat meat used in pagan ceremonies.
__E__ 7. A polygamist cannot be an elder or pastor in the congregation.
___E_ 8. Women in the assembly should be veiled when praying or speaking.
__E__ 9. Muslim believers cannot remain in the mosque.
__N__ 10. Wash feet at the Lord’s Supper (Eucharist).
__E__ 11. Lay on hands for ordination. I marked E because it is important to follow the bibilcal teaching. However, as many reformers point out, ordination is not invalid for lack of this practice.
__N__ 12. Tobacco is forbidden for Christians.
__E__ 13. Sing without musical accompaniment.
__E__ 14. Forbid initiation rituals such as female circumcision, scarification of the body.
__E__ 15. Abstain from eating blood.
__E__ 16. Abstain from fornication.
__E__ 17. Forbid teaching from the Koran or other holy books.
___E_ 18. Share the Lord’s Supper (Eucharist) together.
__N__ 19. Use only real win and unleavened bread for your Eucharist meals. We should use real wine per the biblical example. Unleavened bread is not necessary. However, again although we shoudl strive to be a sprecise as the Bible, using grapejuice does not, in my opinion, invalidate the sacrament
__N__ 20. Anoint with oil for healing.
__E__ 21. Women are not to teach men.
__N__ 22. Women are not to wear braided hair, gold, or pearls.
__E__ 23. Men are not to have long hair. Although I think that I Corinthians 11 is saying that this is a natural principle rather than an ecclesiastical one
__N__ 24. Do not drink wine at all.
__E?__ 25. Slavery is permissible if you treat slaves well. The Bible allows for it. In cultures where slavery has not yet been done away with I do not think it would be wise or practical to try to to away with it in one fell blow. However, I think the influence of the gospel over time should lead to the end of slavery
__N__ 26. Remain single. Only if one has the gift of celibacy (I Corinthians 7)
__N__ 27. Seek the gift of tongues.
__N__ 28. Seek the gift of healing.
__E and N__ 29. Lift your hands when you pray. It is a biblically approved posture. However, it does not require that every prayer be done in this posture
__E__ 30. People who don’t work, don’t eat. In general but with qualifications
__E__ 31. Have a private “devotional time” every day.
__E and N__ 32. Say Amen at the end of prayers. Again it is a biblically approved practice but not required every time a prayer is said.
__E__ 33. Appoint elders and deacons in every congregation. Where there are qualified men
__E__ 34. Elect the leaders. Yes, subject to a presbytery
__E__ 35. Confess sins one to another.
__E__ 36. Confess sins privately to God.
__E__ 37. Give at least ten percent of your income/goods/crops to God.
__N__ 38. Construct a building for worship.
__E__ 39. Confess Christ publicly by means of baptism.
__N__ 40. Be baptized by immersion. I do not believe this is required in any culture. But I guess this line was here for the benefit of our Baptist friends
__E__ 41. Be baptized as an adult. Upon conversion
__E__ 42. Be baptized as an infant. If born to one or both believing parents
__E__ 43. Do not be a polygamist.
__N__ 44. Do not divorce your spouse for any reason.
__E__ 45. Do not divorce your spouse except for adultery. Or desertion not reconcilable by the church or the magistrate if an unbeliever leaves a Christian



Total “E” ________________ Total “N”_____________

Personal Reflection

Wow that was long.

 

[Pergamum]

Thanks for the notes after your answers. It shows that there is not a pat answer to many of these questions, even for those for whom E's predominate.

This list seems to entail much of what we fight about here on the PB.



I have noticed that you put E on abstaining from eating blood. Interesting.

 

[danmpem]

I'm not trying to be picky, but there are a lot of if's involved in answering some of the questions.

 

[Pergamum]

Dan:

Yes, definitely!

Just what are those if?

And why do you need ifs? Isn't the Word of God plain enough! [sarcasm a bit there]

 

[Pergamum]

Some are very easy: the uniqueness of the Bible and the uniqueness of Christ are entirely non-negotiable, are of foundational importance, and should be insisted on from day one. Appointing elders is very important, and really ought to happen at some point: but it's not going to happen on day one (no one meets the qualifications: at the very least, they are all novices), so you may not talk about that until day 2. And since the question included deacons, and I'm not sure that having deacons is a requirement in a small church, or one that is just getting started, obviously I couldn't be very firm about that question.

In regard to working with other people, an awful lot is dependent on context. If someone who would let women speak if duly veiled invites me to preach, I'm working with them, in one sense: if I invite them to preach, I'm working with them in another sense: if I plant a work and turn it over to them, I'm working with them in still another sense: and if we collaborate to plant and pastor a church, then I'm working with them in a fourth sense. I think I would preach for people whom I wouldn't have to preach for me; I think I would have someone speak for me to whose oversight I would not commend my people (many Presbyterians will have a Baptist preach, or vice versa). So there are different levels of cooperation, and that makes the question of working with others rather complex.

How much depends on context - that is the BIG question?


Can we eat blood? MUst we kiss each other in church? etc... It seems that much NT practice is not normative but descriptive only of 1st century practices.

 

[Zadok]

I don't have time to go through the list at present. I will just say that since this is all to do with what should be normative for Christians, there is an interesting article written by Dr Peter Masters at:

The Normative Principle

Would be interested in responses to this article in connection with the list supplied.

 

[Pergamum]

That article is pretty good!