Spurgeon on the Gospel (aka. 'Calvinism')

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Arguing against the total sovereignty of God would be sickening and would back up what I said earlier about extreme Arminians being unsaved. How could a truely saved person argue against God having total and complete control?


If this is true, then about 98% of everyone that I know is not saved.


What I REALLY think is happening is just muddled thinking; They will say that Of course God is sovereign, the bible says so...and at the same time saying that God lets us choose our free will....
While saying that they had to have faith or they couldn't be saved, and that on the basis of that faith, God saved them...they will flatly deny that they had anything to contribute to their salvation!

They've never REALLY connected all of the dots....

but the faith came from "them" they chose to exercise it, they drummed it up inside themselves, they made them selves "alive" in order to chose Christ.

When does it stop being "ignorance" or "misunderstanding" and become heresy?

I'll use myself as an example. God saved me in 2002. Now, growing up in an IFB home, I was programmed with Arminian thinking. Even into my salvation experience I would describe it as I was trained to think it. I would admit that I got to the point where I had to open myself to what God had dangling over my head and choose him. Now, fastforward to 2008. I had a desire to search for some truth. I was attending churches where I just wasn't at ease, though I didn't know why. One thing led to another and I started to study the issue of Calvinism, because I knew that Calvinism was so wrong. Through arduous study on the topic it became evident to me that it was in fact my Theology through ignorance that was incorrect. I made a 180 into Reformed Theology, at least with the Doctrines of Grace. There are many other facets (disspensationalism, eschatology, etc) that I haven't fully studied or grasped yet.

So, this is an example of my ignorance turned into truth and knowledge. I had a hunger for the truth, and still do, and God illuminated my hungry heart for what he wanted me to know - which was found through scripture and prayer. When I talk to many Arminians, it seems that there isn't that hunger per se, but rather that stubbornness where they just don't want to budge on anything.

Though I initially had a bad understanding of what truly happened in 2002, the truth was that God saved me and that I had nothing to do with it. Even though I would have said otherwise, the truth was absolute. It would seem to me that people who preach that man has this ability to choose Christ in and of themselves, and who seem to be "well learned" in scripture at some point must harden their hearts to the truth of scripture. Can someone merely remain in this ignorance? I know of some like this, who actually do possess a lot of Christian fruit. It would be hard for me to assume that they are not saved. Maybe they have been in those churches since they were first saved, and have never truly studied the issue, other than studying the straw men raised by their church leadership. Which brings the question around to those in that "leadership" who don't teach correctly. I dunno... tough topic.

-----Added 7/19/2009 at 02:23:08 EST-----

I would travel. I am traveling.

Well, let's make believe that there were no other churches in traveling distance...

I guess my question is, can one go to a church, such as an Arminian church or even a Southern Baptist that doesn't believe in the Doctrines of Grace, and not have a guilt conscience? Can we do so, even if it bugs the snot out of us?

.

We are commanded not to forsake the assembly of believers. If there was no other congregation I would go. However I would not be totally silent about my beliefs. That would give me clear conscience. Those who have a heart of flesh can be taught. If we agree salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, there is room left to dialogue about cause and effect. I may eventually get booted for heresy, but then my absence would not be because I was neglectful.

Arminians can handle "we love Jesus because he first loved us", now we have to expand the issue a little more;)

good point.

-----Added 7/19/2009 at 02:35:19 EST-----

Arguing against the total sovereignty of God would be sickening and would back up what I said earlier about extreme Arminians being unsaved. How could a truely saved person argue against God having total and complete control?


If this is true, then about 98% of everyone that I know is not saved.


What I REALLY think is happening is just muddled thinking; They will say that Of course God is sovereign, the bible says so...and at the same time saying that God lets us choose our free will....
While saying that they had to have faith or they couldn't be saved, and that on the basis of that faith, God saved them...they will flatly deny that they had anything to contribute to their salvation!

They've never REALLY connected all of the dots....

but the faith came from "them" they chose to exercise it, they drummed it up inside themselves, they made them selves "alive" in order to chose Christ.

When does it stop being "ignorance" or "misunderstanding" and become heresy?

Good question. I would hope that the issue for many is that they are just describing something wrong... that is, that they truly believe it is all of grace, but are ignorant to think that we have this ability to choose within our sinful nature (they believe the "through faith" is the "us" part). Obviously, they don't get the whole "we choose based on our desires which is based on our nature" deal. Maybe they have never been challenged on the issue, which would be more understandable than someone that just suppresses the truth and denies the scriptures. They'll give you their big 3 proof-texts as proof of their "choice," but my question is how do they package that with verses like John 6:44, Romans 9, etc... to which they will step back and say "we don't know the mind of God." Then I'll show them how their big 3 is most likely an issue of context, and then I'll show them how I still believe in choice, etc. etc.
 
but the faith came from "them" they chose to exercise it, they drummed it up inside themselves, they made them selves "alive" in order to chose Christ.

When does it stop being "ignorance" or "misunderstanding" and become heresy?

I'm being very honest when I say...that's the question of the day...I don't know.

I can say this: Other than this PB and my own current church, I know possibly 5 people total who realizes that their salvation was God's doing...the rest of them believe (either well thought out formally or not thought out at all) that God is trying to save everyone, they exhibited faith, and because of that...God saved them.


Are we saying that they are not saved?


I'm not starting a fight...I'm being mentally challenged and trying to understand this issue..
 
but the faith came from "them" they chose to exercise it, they drummed it up inside themselves, they made them selves "alive" in order to chose Christ.

When does it stop being "ignorance" or "misunderstanding" and become heresy?

I'm being very honest when I say...that's the question of the day...I don't know.

I can say this: Other than this PB and my own current church, I know possibly 5 people total who realizes that their salvation was God's doing...the rest of them believe (either well thought out formally or not thought out at all) that God is trying to save everyone, they exhibited faith, and because of that...God saved them.


Are we saying that they are not saved?


I'm not starting a fight...I'm being mentally challenged and trying to understand this issue..

The question may be whether or not they are dogmatically wrong. When people attack those who believe it is 100% God, and acclaim, rather, that it is they who have made it possible to get saved... this raises serious questions. For we know man cannot save themselves. This dogmatism is a sign that they are a false teacher.

The opposite would be those who are merely ignorant, and maybe taking other peoples explanations for granted. They are wrong for not being like a Berean, but I don't think that is a salvation issue. It's more so a maturity issue.
 
When people attack those who believe it is 100% God, and acclaim, rather, that it is they who have made it possible to get saved... this raises serious questions. For we know man cannot save themselves. This dogmatism is a sign that they are a false teacher.

Amen!

The opposite would be those who are merely ignorant, and maybe taking other peoples explanations for granted. They are wrong for not being like a Berean, but I don't think that is a salvation issue. It's more so a maturity issue.

If it's a maturity issue, they will eventually "grow" and come to know/accept the truth.
 
When people attack those who believe it is 100% God, and acclaim, rather, that it is they who have made it possible to get saved... this raises serious questions. For we know man cannot save themselves. This dogmatism is a sign that they are a false teacher.

Amen!

The opposite would be those who are merely ignorant, and maybe taking other peoples explanations for granted. They are wrong for not being like a Berean, but I don't think that is a salvation issue. It's more so a maturity issue.

If it's a maturity issue, they will eventually "grow" and come to know/accept the truth.

One would think... the funny thing is that people often (at least what I have seen in my circle) defend or attack the word Calvinism... and therefore never really look into scripture for what it truly says. In other words, people waste most of their time on a straw-man (usually one of their current leaders caricatures of Calvinism) and never just sit back and say, "I'm gonna study scripture, and whatever it says I'll follow and believe." At that point I would think they can confidently say, "I'm definitely not Arminian." Whether or not they take up the word Calvinism, that's up to them, though they may be considered a closet-Calvinist once they can accurately portray scripture, especially with regard to salvation. They will just live in denial at that point... :D
 
But here's where I'm getting stuck in the mud on this one...;

None of my Christian friends would answer to the affirmative that they helped save themselves. Not one.

But if you were to ask them; So...is God trying to save everyone?

They'd say "Why yes!"

And then if you point out..."Then what was the difference between you; who were saved, and your next door neighbor who was not?"

They'd say: "I had faith"

And you point out..."But doesn't that mean that the difference between you getting saved and your neighbor getting saved is found inside you and not God's choice?

They'd say; "Oh no...Salvation is of the Lord!"


And then you'd start the circle all over again from another angle..

"So...why didn't your neighbor get saved"

They'd answer "Because he didn't have faith"

And then you'd point out that they are saying that it's them who contribute something to their own salvation...

And at that point they'd deny it "No way...I can't help save myself"....


and around and around it goes.....so they aren't being intentionally Synergistic...but that's the net effect...they really don't get it...
 
In other words, people waste most of their time on a straw-man (usually one of their current leaders caricatures of Calvinism) and never just sit back and say, "I'm gonna study scripture, and whatever it says I'll follow and believe." At that point I would think they can confidently say, "I'm definitely not Arminian." Whether or not they take up the word Calvinism, that's up to them, though they may be considered a closet-Calvinist once they can accurately portray scripture, especially with regard to salvation. They will just live in denial at that point... :D

I know of a local independent congregation which, in their statement of faith, specifically outlines the Doctrines of Grace in quite unmistakable and robust terms, but then notes right afterward (I'm paraphrasing) "This is not 'Calvinism'; we do not wish to be a 'Calvinist' church, but simply a Biblical church. These doctrines are what the Bible cleary teaches regarding salvation, and therefore we profess them wholeheartedly."
 
But here's where I'm getting stuck in the mud on this one...;

None of my Christian friends would answer to the affirmative that they helped save themselves. Not one.

But if you were to ask them; So...is God trying to save everyone?

They'd say "Why yes!"

And then if you point out..."Then what was the difference between you; who were saved, and your next door neighbor who was not?"

They'd say: "I had faith"

And you point out..."But doesn't that mean that the difference between you getting saved and your neighbor getting saved is found inside you and not God's choice?

They'd say; "Oh no...Salvation is of the Lord!"


And then you'd start the circle all over again from another angle..

"So...why didn't your neighbor get saved"

They'd answer "Because he didn't have faith"

And then you'd point out that they are saying that it's them who contribute something to their own salvation...

And at that point they'd deny it "No way...I can't help save myself"....


and around and around it goes.....so they aren't being intentionally Synergistic...but that's the net effect...they really don't get it...

Then you simply ask them

"Where did that faith come from, and why doesn't your unsaved neighbor have it."

How they respond to that, tells you A LOT.
 
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