SPIRIT AND TRUTH

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Thanks for the support, RPW guys.

As for the Levitical priesthood, it WAS changed, according to Hebrews (Heb 7). With the change of a priest, there is a change in the (ceremonial) law. The priesthood now is through the tribe of Judah (Heb 8), as Christ is decended from, humanly speaking. Christ is our High Priest now, and we worship according to His priesthood, which, according to Hebrews, is definitely according to regulated principles before an almighty and most Holy Lord (Heb 12:28-29).

We can sing Psalm 150 because the instruments, just like any other part of the ceremonial law, point to Christ. As believers under the NC, the instruments show us how our brothers and sisters in Christ, prior to His advent, were led to worship the Lord. Instruments were an aid to the ancient Hebrews in worshipping the Lord, and assisting in the ceremonial sacrifices and burning of offerings, but under the New Covenant, with God's perfect law written on our hearts and the Holy Spirit living within us, we need ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to point us to Christ. Nothing at all! Everything is in place, our salvation is complete. We are to worship God, in the NC, with purity and simplicity, praising the Lord with His own praises in the Book of Psalms, making melody with the joy of our COMPLETE salvation that rests within our hearts.

This is worshipping in Spirit and Truth.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

If you worship in all Spirit, you have chaos and are in error.

If you worship in all Truth, you have lifeless, dead, dry worship.

If you worship in Spirit and in Truth, you have the joy of your salvation making melody to the Lord, as you sing His praises, given to us by His Spirit in all wisdom.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

I disagree. So this means we can no longer gain anything from the OT?

I have no idea where you get this conclusion from. Complete logical fallacy.

You don't see any connection? Here it is, plain and simple, in case you missed it, brother:

25 And he stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, harps, and lyres, according to the commandment of David and of Gad the king's seer and of Nathan the prophet, for the commandment was from the Lord through his prophets. 26 The Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. 27 Then Hezekiah commanded that the burnt offering be offered on the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song to the Lord began also, and the trumpets, accompanied by the instruments of David king of Israel. 28 The whole assembly worshiped, and the singers sang and the trumpeters sounded. All this continued until the burnt offering was finished. 29 When the offering was finished, the king and all who were present with him bowed themselves and worshiped.

Here is an answer that carries as much weight as yours.

Read closely Gabe:

There is a man named Job who lives in Uz.

Get it? Absolutely no connection. Everyone looks for symbolism and allegory, and this is what your connection smacks of.

IF a person is banging a drum worshipping God, so be it.

We don't define worship. God does. To think so highly of one's ability to worship the Lord in any way He pleases shows one has a very low view of God, in my humble opinion, and I really think that is the bottom line. Why approach worship with such flippancy and apathy? This is almighty God we are talking about here. We are not out to impress Him (for we cannot) and we should definitely not ignore His own opinions on worship, as set forth in His word.



[Edited on 5-13-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Edited. If the shoe fits...

Jeremy expressed some concern that the thrust of his question has been lost. I confess to having gotten quite misoriented myself in trying to follow this thread.

Gabe, you took offense early on, and called for apologies. I'm convinced you didn't understand what Jeremy asked initially, and his responses to your posts were partly the result of his trying to correlate what he thought he was asking, and the responses he was getting. If the RPW is an unheard of, alien concept, how will applications be helpful (do it this way) before explaining why it must be done? Hence the uncomprehending questions.

"Thanks for the support, RPW guys." Am I reading that right? is that sarcasm? Edit. Based on your response (below), I must have been reading that wrong. I apologize.

How about backing up to square one,
praying,
looking at your brother in love,
and then using your considerable intellect to patiently and painstakingly lead someone through an exposition of the second commandment, and the history of Nadab and Abihu, and culminating with John 4:23? Just present the truth. You may plant or water, but not see the increase. That may belong to someone else, if at all.

Growth in grace is just as much a pure work of the Spirit as the new birth; see 1 Cor. 4:7 and the whole context from the beginning of the letter. If your position on worship is the most spiritual one there is, you didn't get there because your intellect was so much better, you are more logical and sensible, or you have naturally superior spiritual vision. You have been spiritually graced that you embrace the RPW. So be patient with others--some of whom don't even know what Word-governed-worship is all about.

Edit. Delete paragraph.For my formerly intemperate language, please forgive me. Let Scripture suffice: 1 Pet. 5:2; Jer. 3:15.

[Edited on 5-14-2005 by Contra_Mundum]

 

[pastorway]

Answering this question, which is a good one, should not have launched us into another unsolvable debate about what to sing and with what instruments if any! We will reach a consensus on the exclusive psalmnody discussion as soon as we all agree on baptism!

Worship in spirit and truth is not about form, it is about attititude. If our attitude is wrong then no form in the world is right! Matthew 15:8"These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."'

So can a certain form be wrong? Yes it can, if it violates what God has showed us in the Word. He is seeking for those who worship in spirit and truth. So what can we glean from Scripture as to HOW to worship in spoirit and truth?

Here are a few things to consider:

taken from the article "Seven Marks of a Sound Church" by Pastor Way

How do we worship in spirit with a right heart condition and attitude? Let's expand our study of the Scriptures on this point. Open your Bibles and read these verses and then read how I have summarized worshipping God in spirit into the following seven points:

1. Philippians 3:3, 7-11 - Worship in spirit is offered with no confidence in the flesh. The true believer views his flesh as sinful without any merit or capacity to please God without the intervention of our Savior, Jesus Christ.
2. Revelation 4:10-11 - Worship in spirit is focused wholly upon God with no thought of self.
3. Psalm 95:6-7- Worship in spirit must be reverent, not loud and obnoxious, with disharmony or showmanship!
4. Psalm 96:9; 5:7 - Worship in spirit must be characterized by fear and trembling! We are worshipping a thrice holy God and cannot ever enter His presence with little thought.
5. Psalm 29:1-2; Psalm 99 - Worship in spirit must be holy. To be holy is to be set aside or separated from the world. We should not worship God like the world worships its false gods. Worship should be distinct from the world and not mixed with worldly values and practices.
6. 2 Chronicles 20:18-20 - Worship in spirit must overflow with humility. Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it is thinking of yourself less! Again - the focus is GOD.
7. Psalm 51:15-17 - Worship in spirit is worship with brokenness! We must come expressing a total dependence upon God for everything we need.

Jesus also said we must worship in truth. This means that our worship must first meet the above-mentioned requirements of worship in spirit, and then added to that, it must also be consistent with Scripture and centered on Christ. Here are a few more verses to read as we look at five ways we worship in truth:

1. Revelation 14:7 - Worship in truth gives God honor, reverence, glory, and expresses His worthiness.
2. Psalm 45:11 - Worship in truth is based in the truth that we worship Him because He is Lord. We don't make Him Lord. He is Lord. Forever. The question here is whether or not we obey Him as Lord since He is Lord?
3. Psalm 66:4 - Worship in truth offers praise to His name. We worship Him, not His provision or creation, not His works or ways. We worship HIM, as He is characterized by His many names revealed in Scripture.
4. Psalm 138 - Worship in truth is worship in lowliness. We must have a proper opinion of ourselves, a low opinion of self. We are sinners and but for His grace we would not be able to approach Him at all. Our worship of Him is all based on His doings - His salvation, forgiveness, and grace.
5. Psalm 148, 149, 150 - Worship in truth is worship in ways of which God approves!

And here is an outline from my sermon last Sunday - the fourth in a series on Worship in Spirit and Truth!! We examined worship that displeases God.

IV. Worship that Displeases God "“ Ex 20:1-11

A. Worship of Anyone or Anything Other Than or Together with God "“ Ex. 20:3; Ps 86:10; Rom 1:18-25

B. Worship that involves Disobedience "“ Ex 20:4-6; Ex 32

C.Worship that Takes God´s Name in Vain "“ Ex 20:7; Malachi 1:6-14; Matt 15:9

D. Worship that is not Holy "“ Ex 20:8-11

1. Void of Faith "“ Heb 11:6; Rom 14:23
2. Close Lips vs Far Hearts "“ Isaiah 29:13; Jeremiah 12:2; Matt 15:8
3. Based on Lies (false doctrine) "“ John 4:24; Psalm 17:1
4. Worship that is not Separated from the World "“ Rom 12:1-2; 1 John 2:15-17
5. Worship that Profanes "“ Ezekiel 22:23-31

Hope that helps EDIFY and further the discussion.

Phillip

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Bruce, I think you need to re-read the thread and see how my simple explanation of my position turned into me getting accused of "quenching the Spirit" and being "legalistic", when all I was trying to do was answer the question as I saw it. You also misunderstood me on a few different points, clearly, and that is understandable, seeing as how this is the internet and not real life. Tone of voice, concern, and other things cannot be discerned on the internet, so to accuse me of all the things you have is unwarranted, I think.

Maybe I'm wrong, but all I see in this thread is me answering a question thoroughly and getting attacked for it with some very unappreciated remarks. I simply defended myself from that point forward, trying to, all the while, show why I believe what I believe. I'm sorry you see it differently, and feel the need to say what you did. I disagree with your assessment, and if you actually knew me apart from the internet and read this thread without bias from beginning to end (if you have, then forgive me), you wouldn't be reacting this way. It is not a light hearted thing to rebuke another brother in Christ, especially based on accusations of things such as "me shoving things down a person's throat", which is something that cannot be discerned in text form.

As I re-read what I have posted, I see no such hostility, just someone giving their conviction, being unjustly attacked and rebuked for it because it is not a majority position, and then that person defending themselves as they continue to present their case, so that such attacks are seen to have no warrant.

Finally, I was not looking to convert anyone to my position from the get-go, just simply present the case for what I believe. From that point I was attacked and rebuked unjustly, so of course I am going to defend myself against such accusations.

Have a lovely day, Bruce.

[Edited on 5-13-2005 by WrittenFromUtopia]

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Originally posted by WrittenFromUtopia
Have a lovely day, Bruce.

Cordially reciprocated, Gabe.


edit add: [please note my edits above in response to your post]

[Edited on 5-14-2005 by Contra_Mundum]

 

[NaphtaliPress]

A good explanation of the Regulative Principle of Worship (RPW) by a non EP (exclusive psalmodist) is:
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/bogue.htm
A presentation of the RPW and aspects of the principle also is given here in an article that applies the rule to worship song by someone who is EP:
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/worsong.htm
For more articles relating to the topic of worship, go to the following link and page down to the topic "Reformed Worship": http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/articles.htm

 

[BobVigneault]

Hey Pastor Way, when do you think your sermons are going to be posted on your church site and will they be text and audio (mp3 I hope) or just text?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Here is a sum of the subject of worship as it relates to the second commandment given by James Durham:
In sum, this commandment holds forth these three things:

(1) That God will not only be served inwardly in the heart, by good thoughts and intentions (which is prescribed in the first commandment), but also outwardly, in the confessing him before men, in external service and worship, in suitable words and gestures. For the forbidding this sort of external gestures, worshipping and bowing before idols, includes the contrary affirmative in all its kinds (according to the first rule before-mentioned for the right understanding of all the commandments). Thus it takes in all ordinances of word, prayer, sacraments, ceremonies, etc. and failing in these, breaks this commandment, when even they are not rightly gone about.

(2) It holds forth this, that, in that external service and worship, God will not have men following their own humor, but will have them to walk by the rule given, or to be given by him to them; and otherwise it is in vain whatever worship men perform to him (Matt. 15:9). Hence it is said here, Thou shalt not make to thyself "” that is, at thy own pleasure, without my command, otherwise what is by God´s command is made to him; and this is to be extended to all ordinances, yea, both to the worship itself, and also to the manner of that worship, all is to be done according to God´s command only.

(3) It holds forth a spiritual service due to God, or that we should be spiritual in all external service. There should not be in us any carnal apprehensions of God, as if he were like anything that we could imagine (Acts 17:29), as is fully clear from Deut. 4:15, etc. Also all rashness and carnality in external performances is here discharged under bowing to images.

from
http://www.fpcr.org/blue_banner_articles/Durham-2nd-Commandment-1.htm

 

[Arch2k]

Chris,

I would just like to say that the articles you have posted (and your website in general) have been most helpful. Thanks for making them available at just the right time.

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Thanks Jeff! happy to help.

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Jeff_Bartel
Chris,

I would just like to say that the articles you have posted (and your website in general) have been most helpful. Thanks for making them available at just the right time.

 

[Jeremy]

Unity

Wow. I'm humbled. You guys sure do know your scripture!! Praise God! I can't hold a theological candle to any one of you.

I guess you could say that once I start thinking I know something, that's when I find out I know nothing.

I have to give Gabe two thumbs up for his concern that we worship God as He prescribes in scripture out of an obedient heart to God.

I never really thought too deeply about 'obedient worship' I'll call it. When I worship the Lord every day, I do make sure that all of my sin is confessed, repented of and forsaken. I use worship in order to have more of Christ and to pursue a holy, sanctified heart. But I never really considered, how does God say that I am to worship in His word?

This has become a very interesting study for me.

Your responses have been truthful and loving (for the most part) =).

Thanks,

Jeremy

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

May the Holy Spirit alone teach you in your further studies on worship, Jeremy.