Speed of Light

Discussion in 'Natural Revelation and God's Creation' started by ZackF, Apr 10, 2019.

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  1. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

  2. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

    Mods. I meant speed of light in the title even though I made a reference to Dr. Lisle in the post. I would appreciate changing it.
  3. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior


    I myself read quite a bit on Barry Setterfield's work regarding the decreasing speed of light at the fall years ago. Others have since built on it. Instead of a big bang and slowing speed, he has a creation, and then a parabolic decrease after the fall of Adam.

    So far it only seems to be a small group challenging Einstein. It would be good to see the broader scientific community join them even if their understanding is only partial.

    If you haven't read Sungenis on geocentricity you might enjoy it. And Malcolm Bowden has some you tube geocentricity videos worth watching. Michelson- Morley, Sagnac, etc. The biblical model with a central earth in a firmament, and a truly fallen and cursed world including light speed, makes so much scientific sense.

    Thanks for the post.
  4. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

    In my decidedly unscientific trained opinion, I think Einstein’s theories will be thought of like Newton’s are now They work in many situations but not all.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  5. jwright82

    jwright82 Puritan Board Senior

    Well Einstein's theories have been proven. The speed of light is constant in a vacuum. A little off topic but I heard today that we have the first picture of a black hole and it behaves exactly like Eistein said it would. Sometimes math can help us picture how things will behave.
  6. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

    Einstein’s (like Newton’s) theories have been proven except where and when they aren’t. As the article I posted said, Einstein’s gravitational theories may break down at some point and that some quantum theory of gravity may replace his.
  7. jwright82

    jwright82 Puritan Board Senior

    Oh yeah but fundamentally they are correct. Hawking made contributions that Einstein never guessed. A new theory is needed but I doubt it will overturn it, like the speed of light. But I am going to read that article.
  8. Afterthought

    Afterthought Puritan Board Junior

    It looks like VSL theories still have a lot of work to do before being viable. Most will prefer inflation due to not having to modify all of physical laws (and it solves a number of other problems), but the idea itself doesn't seem any more crazy than inflation, in my opinion (so long as restricted to the early universe). I think though the key lesson from VSL theories is that proposing it is "acceptable" in the secular world, whereas it is laughed off stage at once when creationists propose it to solve the exact same problem (a horizon problem).

    I like John Hartnett's treatment of VSL here: https://creation.com/does-faster-speed-of-light-answer-big-bang-problems

    It should be noted that the speed of light is only constant locally in GR; you can't define a speed globally (just like you can't define energy conservation globally): https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/133482/speed-of-light-in-general-relativity

    One (in my opinion) promising candidate for quantum gravity is string theory, which apparently can accommodate a VSL theory in the early universe.

    Enjoy nerding out.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  9. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

    Again it’s not so much about ‘overturning’ it rather than qualifying it. For designing airbags Newton’s laws work just fine. He got us to the moon as the saying went. Things breakdown when extreme speeds and sizes are involved. Einstein does better then.

    Here’s another article. https://bigthink.com/philip-perry/is-the-speed-of-light-slowing-down
  10. Harley

    Harley Puritan Board Sophomore

    I've eagerly anticipated this for the last year.


    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  11. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

  12. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Why is Geocentrism important to you?

    For example, Jerusalem the most important city on earth Biblically speaking, but it is not located in the center of the earth. In fact, on earth how do you geographically determine a central focus?

    Many things disprove Geocentrism and the easiest one of all is the perturbations of Mercury's orbit.
  13. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    I guess you missed the geocentrism threads here that went on for page after page until the mods ended them.

    Actually, many many things disprove Einstein's relativity and heliocentricity, and if you ever want to look further, the Mercury bit is no problem for geocentrists.

    I'm pretty much done debating it here though. I'd rather leave it to the PhD astronomers and physicists who tackle it quite well. If you ever want to read more, look up Gerhardus Bouw and Robert Sungenis for starters. The latter has a marvelous DVD and book with the proofs that we (well, our solar system and galaxy) are at the center of the universe.

    Its a settled doctrine for me and I don't want to bang my head against the wall again here...and I'm not anywhere near as smart as the top geocentrists worth reading anyway. But thanks for the speed of light post. And spend some time thinking about why visible light speed always measures the same whether you move towards or away from a source, unlike the way we measure with radar waves and other waves. (It actually doesn't.) And the brilliance of Einstein was figuring out a way to explain all the experimental results that the earth is at rest, which voila, was his explanation that light waves don't behave like those other waves, it always measures the same, and time speeds up and down and so forth. ( Time Magazine, Man of the Century 2000). LOL, I am not making this up. Why is that so important to you is perhaps the better question. Light waves don't behave like other waves on the Electromagnetic spectrum such as radar, radio, etc? Time speeds up and slows down? Sounds like magic to me.

    Over and out.
  14. Logan

    Logan Puritan Board Junior

    We've been over this multiple times, but that's just incorrect. I am a radar engineer, specifically working in electromagnetics and I don't know what you're talking about.
  15. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    EDIT: I answered my own question by more carefully reading the preceding post.
  16. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    ??? Why are you thanking me for this Speed of Light thread?

    This is NOT my thread.

    Why are you addressing me about all those topics that someone else posted in this thread?

    The only post I made in this thread prior to this one, was to you about Mercury's orbit.

    I am a brand new member here.

    So yes I had no clue that there had been any threads about Geocentricity. I was shocked when I read your post.

    You are the only Christian I have ever encountered personally who believes in Geocentricity.

    Years ago I researched Sungenis and there was precious little real science in any of his presentations.

    If you don't want to explain to me how the perturbations of Mercury's orbit don't disprove geocentricity then I will assume you can't because you don't understand the science well enough, especially when you explain that you don't understand the science very well.

    Why do you think everything must orbit the earth?
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
  17. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Dear Zack,

    I am convinced the Bible clearly teaches that God created the universe in a mature state, so I have never understood all of the fuss these many decades to try to find a way to change the speed of light when it simply isn't necessary, and they will never find it.

    For example, God created Adam in a mature state. Were medical science able to examine Adam's body, then other than the possible absence of a belly button (LOL), the scientific findings would be identical to a human body grown from a fertilized egg.

    So, using that same train of thought, could Science tell the difference between a Universe created in a mature state from an identical universe at that same state of maturity grown from a hot, dense, singularity (or from whatever the initial state was)? No!
  18. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

    I see.
  19. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

    There are those here that hold to Geocentrism here other than @lynnie.

    The PB has a lot of history, with many threads on numerous topics. You’ve started several threads in your short time here. You might find the archives helpful.
  20. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Dear Zack,

    I have been reading the Puritan Board for many, many years!!!

    The PB has been one of my "go to" places to find help.

    I never felt the need to join until a few days ago when I had some questions I wanted to ask and some topics i wanted to discuss.

    But no, not in a million years would I have thought to look for anything about Geocentrism in the PB.

    Are you saying there are reformed who believe in Geocentrism? If so I am in shock.

    Do you know how many early Astronomers including the father of Astrophysics were Presbyterians?!
  21. ZackF

    ZackF Puritan Board Graduate

    Not a clue. :)
  22. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    Dear John,
    This is a moderating suggestion! We are just getting to know you (and are glad you’re here). Typically, posting in bold can come across to folks as a bit aggressive, and challenging the views so strongly of people you’re just getting to know comes across as a bit aggressive too. Please continue just as you are but perhaps with a wee toning down!
  23. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    Not sure what you mean. Radar operates according to classical physics. Object moves away from or towards you as you move, add and subtract velocities. Same for sound waves and other waves.

    Relativity dispenses with that. Light speed appears the same even if you are moving. Experimental classical proof showed the earth at rest, moving to and from stars. Relativity was the way to get around that evidence and say we really were orbiting, even if there was no change in measured velocity.

    The debate is more about relativity vs classical physics than anything else at this point.
  24. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    Hey John, I was in a rush, sorry I made a mistake about you being the OP.
  25. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Dear Jeri - Thank you for communicating with me. I have been told the same thing on Facebook in many different groups and I deactivated from Facebook.
    I apologize that I am so intense. I left Facebook several months ago. I have been reading the PB for years but never felt the desire to join until a few days ago when there were some questions I wanted to ask and topics I wanted to discuss. But some of these topics stress me out so much, and maybe its my old age ... I honestly don't know ... but I tried to not be intense on Facebook and was unsuccessful. I think maybe it was a mistake to join PB because many of the topics trigger to many emotions and bad memories. Maybe I should return to just being a reader of PB.
    Again, thank you for your communication. Lord's blessings to you.
  26. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    By the way, Martin Selbrede of the Chalcedon report is a devout geocentrist who has put out some good stuff in the past. Of course anybody into Rushdooney may not be considered truly Reformed here :)
  27. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    No, don’t leave! You have great things to say and best of all you love the Lord so much, it’s plain to see. Look at all the interaction you’ve gotten. You need to be here. :)
  28. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Dear Jeri - you are encouraging and kind, but I keep being told the same thing in one reformed Facebook group after another from "men of God' who were usualy in leadership positions in their Churches, and they were good men ... and then you say the same.
    I don't know how to explain it but in recent years I have been having more and more memory problems .. and seem less and less in control of my emotions.
    And I get very intense, but I always had a strong personality, especially in the military when it was an asset.
    I sincerely love everyone but certain kinds of bad theology makes me get a bit unhinged ...
    I don't know.
    I am going to meditate upon this, pray, and see where God leads.

    Thanks again for communicating with me.
  29. CJW

    CJW Puritan Board Freshman

    Haha, yes, it isn't a subject one would just randomly search for, but, yes, there is more than one reformed person who believes in Geocentrism. :). I hope you were sitting down!! :)

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  30. SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929

    SelfSuspendedDeuteronomy2929 Puritan Board Freshman

    Dear CJW,

    I am sorry, but I don't think this is amusing.

    I did read some PB Threads about Geocentrism after this ordeal earlier today.

    Then I contacted NASA.

    Hopefully in about 2 weeks, I will have in 2 forms absolute incontrovertible proof that Heliocentrism is true, and Geocentrism is delusional.

    #1 Solar probe proof) Time stamped compiled series of photographs and data showing the planets orbiting around the solar probe in close proximity to the Sun, which means orbiting around the sun.

    #2 Planetary probes) Time stamped series of photographs from Mars showing the Sun Rising and Setting EXACTLY LIKE IT DOES ON EARTH, and Mars even rotates in the same direction as earth thus making it also East to West.

    Is the sun orbiting around Mars too? Because the behavior of the Sun, as a Geocentrist would describe it, is IDENTICAL to how a Geocentrist views the supposed Sun's behavior on Earth.

    BUT - I have also learned that many Geocentrists have CONSPIRACY THEORIES about NASA and other scientific endeavors so it might be a complete waste of my time.

    When I receive the data I will give it to the PB administrators and let them decide what to do with it.

    You see, I am leaving the Puritan Board because I just can't handle this kind of stuff anymore.

    I am too old and ill for this. I realize this now.

    In Christ, john
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