Sovereign Grace Ministries

[Jared]

Surprisingly, there are a number of "reformed" charismatics who believe in a second blessing. Martyn Loyd-Jones and John Piper are two examples.

This actually seems to be the most common position.

Some of the Puritans were called "reformed sealers" because they believed in a second blessing, but were still cessationists. Based on what I have heard, Martyn Loyd-Jones was the first reformed person to be a continuationist and hold to a second blessing.

The following lecture from SBTS might be helpful to some of you who would like to learn more about continuationists who are also Calvinists.

It is titled "Pentecostalism and Its Impact On Evangelicals"

http://www.sbts.edu/MP3/BoyceSociety/Brand09_17_03.mp3

I listened to it a few months ago and found some of the issues discussed to be interesting although I had heard some of the historical information because my church history professor was Pentecostal.

 

[Jared]

Those of us who are Third Wave feel somewhat out of place at times. But it's okay. We're strong. We'll get through it.

 

[turmeric]

Actually, Piper does not believe in a "second blessing" such as I referenced unless he's changed his stance since his sermons on Romans. For his take on it, his sermons on Rom. 7 & 8 are revealing.. He does believe in continuationism.

 

[KMK]

Surprisingly, there are a number of "reformed" charismatics who believe in a second blessing. Martyn Loyd-Jones and John Piper are two examples.

This actually seems to be the most common position.
Some of the Puritans were called "reformed sealers" because they believed in a second blessing, but were still cessationists. Based on what I have heard, Martyn Loyd-Jones was the first reformed person to be a continuationist and hold to a second blessing.

Could you clarify what you mean by the above?

 

[Scott1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared104
Surprisingly, there are a number of "reformed" charismatics who believe in a second blessing. Martyn Loyd-Jones and John Piper are two examples.

This actually seems to be the most common position.
Some of the Puritans were called "reformed sealers" because they believed in a second blessing, but were still cessationists. Based on what I have heard, Martyn Loyd-Jones was the first reformed person to be a continuationist and hold to a second blessing.

Could you clarify what you mean by the above?
__________________

After you answer this, kindly let's leave the trajectory of these questions so we go back to the informational focus on the original question:


Is Sovereign Grace Ministries reformed in its doctrine and practice, especially with regard to:

1) Doctrines of Grace
2) Covenatnt theology
3) Church government

We still have much to discern here.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

The 5th entry at SGMEx is the one I ran across 2 years ago or so:
Here’s The Comment | Sovereign Grace Ministries Survivors (AKA SGUncensored)

That history of SGM is pretty much correct. I have a couple at my church who only left CLC around 2002 or so and were there for about 15-17 years (met there, dated, married, etc....).

I do think that SGM attracts and is good for one particular TYPE of people. If you're not comfortable opening up to people and having multiple people be an *intimate* part of your life or have serious issues with guilt over sin, then being driven back to the cross (and they are very cross-centered) constantly may actually encourage depression in you, not praise. an old friend of mine who attended SGM had that very issue happen. Her complaint with her care group was that the 'fellowship' seemed to be more 'manufactured' than genuine. They only met frequently (weekly) because they were told to....and if you didn't play along, you got reported, phone calls from your pastor and/or CG leader, etc..... now I *know* (because I have many friends in SGM churches) that this is not always the case, but it does exist.

An issue which may or may not have been 'solved' since those days is that CovLife was not holding regular weekly, focused Bible studies (and it wasn't happening in my friends' care group either).

Overall, things may have changed.

I do think it's a bit questionable as to why all SGM's official historical presentations of SGM usually don't mention Larry Tomczak. Covering your history to make it look rosy is usually a bit questionable to me.

On the positive side: As CJ's theology has grown more biblical, SGM has moved more in that direction. Thankfully, they've also become less 'insular' (where they produce everything themselves) and have opened up to the larger evangelical community and encouraged more fellowship and cooperation with folks, denoms and churches outside of SGM. Dever has been a good influence on CJ, as have others like MacArthur (and MacArthur actually let CJ preach one Sunday morning from his pulpit....which says a LOT).

Give SGM more time to 'keep reforming'. While they're probably NOT going to ever look like 1646/86/1747, they sure won't look like 1903 Azuza St. or 1995 TAV. Josh Harris only recently ran them through a series on baptism and the Lord's supper (memorialist view, but a little higher.... but they call them sacraments...). Some very good pastors and churches have actually left where they were to join SGM because their emphasis is much more biblical than anything else they were originally a part of.

In addition, I usually have no issues with recommending 'newly reformed' charismatic folks over to an SGM church - even if its' just transitional (since they'll eventually get into reading more reformed material as a result). At the very least, they'll be in a supportive, doctrinally solid church atmosphere that's growing more and more solid by the year. SGM today doesn't even look like it did in 06'.

 

[KMK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared104
Surprisingly, there are a number of "reformed" charismatics who believe in a second blessing. Martyn Loyd-Jones and John Piper are two examples.

This actually seems to be the most common position.
Some of the Puritans were called "reformed sealers" because they believed in a second blessing, but were still cessationists. Based on what I have heard, Martyn Loyd-Jones was the first reformed person to be a continuationist and hold to a second blessing.

Could you clarify what you mean by the above?
__________________

After you answer this, kindly let's leave the trajectory of these questions so we go back to the informational focus on the original question:


Is Sovereign Grace Ministries reformed in its doctrine and practice, especially with regard to:

1) Doctrines of Grace
2) Covenatnt theology
3) Church government

We still have much to discern here.

Sorry, did not meet to take this off topic.

Before the question could be fully answered, I think you are going to have to define what 'Reformed' church government is.

 

[KMK]

The 5th entry at SGMEx is the one I ran across 2 years ago or so:
Here’s The Comment | Sovereign Grace Ministries Survivors (AKA SGUncensored)

That history of SGM is pretty much correct. I have a couple at my church who only left CLC around 2002 or so and were there for about 15-17 years (met there, dated, married, etc....).

I do think that SGM attracts and is good for one particular TYPE of people. If you're not comfortable opening up to people and having multiple people be an *intimate* part of your life or have serious issues with guilt over sin, then being driven back to the cross (and they are very cross-centered) constantly may actually encourage depression in you, not praise. an old friend of mine who attended SGM had that very issue happen. Her complaint with her care group was that the 'fellowship' seemed to be more 'manufactured' than genuine. They only met frequently (weekly) because they were told to....and if you didn't play along, you got reported, phone calls from your pastor and/or CG leader, etc..... now I *know* (because I have many friends in SGM churches) that this is not always the case, but it does exist.

An issue which may or may not have been 'solved' since those days is that CovLife was not holding regular weekly, focused Bible studies (and it wasn't happening in my friends' care group either).

Overall, things may have changed.

I do think it's a bit questionable as to why all SGM's official historical presentations of SGM usually don't mention Larry Tomczak. Covering your history to make it look rosy is usually a bit questionable to me.

On the positive side: As CJ's theology has grown more biblical, SGM has moved more in that direction. Thankfully, they've also become less 'insular' (where they produce everything themselves) and have opened up to the larger evangelical community and encouraged more fellowship and cooperation with folks, denoms and churches outside of SGM. Dever has been a good influence on CJ, as have others like MacArthur (and MacArthur actually let CJ preach one Sunday morning from his pulpit....which says a LOT).

Give SGM more time to 'keep reforming'. While they're probably NOT going to ever look like 1646/86/1747, they sure won't look like 1903 Azuza St. or 1995 TAV. Josh Harris only recently ran them through a series on baptism and the Lord's supper (memorialist view, but a little higher.... but they call them sacraments...). Some very good pastors and churches have actually left where they were to join SGM because their emphasis is much more biblical than anything else they were originally a part of.

In addition, I usually have no issues with recommending 'newly reformed' charismatic folks over to an SGM church - even if its' just transitional (since they'll eventually get into reading more reformed material as a result). At the very least, they'll be in a supportive, doctrinally solid church atmosphere that's growing more and more solid by the year. SGM today doesn't even look like it did in 06'.

What are the similarities/contrasts between SGM and Vineyard, for example?

 

[BlackCalvinist]

1) Doctrines of Grace - Yes.

2) Covenant theology - That's what's coming out of the pastors' college to my knowledge. Jeff Purswell (CovLife church, head of the pastors' college) did edit Grudem's "Bible Doctrine" and he graduated from TEDS Suma Cum Laude.

3) Church government - Their church polity brochure is on their site for free download.
Polity: Serving and Leading the Local Church BOOK DOWNLOAD

Plurality of Elders, Senior Pastor and what they call 'apostolic partnerships' (which is basically the group of men that leads SGM - they are the pastors of the pastors - hence, they function in a way Paul did....).

Pretty simple.

So maybe 2 out of 3.

 

[Scott1]

1) Doctrines of Grace - Yes.

2) Covenant theology - That's what's coming out of the pastors' college to my knowledge. Jeff Purswell (CovLife church, head of the pastors' college) did edit Grudem's "Bible Doctrine" and he graduated from TEDS Suma Cum Laude.

3) Church government - Their church polity brochure is on their site for free download.
Polity: Serving and Leading the Local Church BOOK DOWNLOAD

Plurality of Elders, Senior Pastor and what they call 'apostolic partnerships' (which is basically the group of men that leads SGM - they are the pastors of the pastors - hence, they function in a way Paul did....).

Pretty simple.


So maybe 2 out of 3.

Very helpful in helping understand their church government. We know there are variations in Reformed church government but it is helpful to know what this denomination looks to for its polity. For example, are they looking toward the Reformation for their polity? (ref post# 38)

 

[Jared]

Surprisingly, there are a number of "reformed" charismatics who believe in a second blessing. Martyn Loyd-Jones and John Piper are two examples.

This actually seems to be the most common position.
Some of the Puritans were called "reformed sealers" because they believed in a second blessing, but were still cessationists. Based on what I have heard, Martyn Loyd-Jones was the first reformed person to be a continuationist and hold to a second blessing.

Could you clarify what you mean by the above?

Well, it seems to me that quite a few of the modern "reformed" Charismatics are just that, they are quite technically Charismatic. Which means that they believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is received after salvation but is not necessarily accompanied by the gift of tongues, but may be accompanied by any spiritual gift.

 

[Jared]

The 5th entry at SGMEx is the one I ran across 2 years ago or so:
Here’s The Comment | Sovereign Grace Ministries Survivors (AKA SGUncensored)

That history of SGM is pretty much correct. I have a couple at my church who only left CLC around 2002 or so and were there for about 15-17 years (met there, dated, married, etc....).

I do think that SGM attracts and is good for one particular TYPE of people. If you're not comfortable opening up to people and having multiple people be an *intimate* part of your life or have serious issues with guilt over sin, then being driven back to the cross (and they are very cross-centered) constantly may actually encourage depression in you, not praise. an old friend of mine who attended SGM had that very issue happen. Her complaint with her care group was that the 'fellowship' seemed to be more 'manufactured' than genuine. They only met frequently (weekly) because they were told to....and if you didn't play along, you got reported, phone calls from your pastor and/or CG leader, etc..... now I *know* (because I have many friends in SGM churches) that this is not always the case, but it does exist.

An issue which may or may not have been 'solved' since those days is that CovLife was not holding regular weekly, focused Bible studies (and it wasn't happening in my friends' care group either).

Overall, things may have changed.

I do think it's a bit questionable as to why all SGM's official historical presentations of SGM usually don't mention Larry Tomczak. Covering your history to make it look rosy is usually a bit questionable to me.

On the positive side: As CJ's theology has grown more biblical, SGM has moved more in that direction. Thankfully, they've also become less 'insular' (where they produce everything themselves) and have opened up to the larger evangelical community and encouraged more fellowship and cooperation with folks, denoms and churches outside of SGM. Dever has been a good influence on CJ, as have others like MacArthur (and MacArthur actually let CJ preach one Sunday morning from his pulpit....which says a LOT).

Give SGM more time to 'keep reforming'. While they're probably NOT going to ever look like 1646/86/1747, they sure won't look like 1903 Azuza St. or 1995 TAV. Josh Harris only recently ran them through a series on baptism and the Lord's supper (memorialist view, but a little higher.... but they call them sacraments...). Some very good pastors and churches have actually left where they were to join SGM because their emphasis is much more biblical than anything else they were originally a part of.

In addition, I usually have no issues with recommending 'newly reformed' charismatic folks over to an SGM church - even if its' just transitional (since they'll eventually get into reading more reformed material as a result). At the very least, they'll be in a supportive, doctrinally solid church atmosphere that's growing more and more solid by the year. SGM today doesn't even look like it did in 06'.

What are the similarities/contrasts between SGM and Vineyard, for example?

I have not been to a SG care group, so I don't know first hand whether they practice this sort of thing first had, but I have been to a couple of Vineyard churches. John Wimber as you may know was the main leader of the Vineyard until his death in 1997. He had a background with the Friends church in Yorba Linda. The experiences that he had as a Quaker are seen through the Vineyard emphasis of 'waiting on the Spirit'. After they have waited for a while, someone will speak up and say what they feel that God is telling them.

The Vineyard also seems to be a little bit more open to Toronto-style manifestations of the Spirit, but usually a little more low-key than that. This is partly because the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship was formerly the Toronto Airport Vineyard.

Basically, a lot of people were asking questions about some of the manifestations, so Wimber asked them to leave.

As I mentioned on another thread, according to J. I. Packer, John Wimber was "reformed". (He used the word reformed, but I think he meant that Wimber was a monergist.)

As far as the music goes, it is similar. The song "Let Your Kingdom Come" by SGM sounds like it could be a Vineyard song. Not only does it have the sound of Vineyard worship, but it also has the emphasis on the kingdom that was so important in John Wimber's ministry.

So, basically I think the main difference is that the Vineyard is more open to spiritual manifestations such as falling in the floor, shaking, laughing, etc.

 

[Jared]

I should also add that not everyone who is with the Vineyard is a monergist. In fact, it seems like it is more common for Vineyard pastors to be more broadly evangelical and not "reformed" in any sense.

To my knowledge, pretty much everyone who is part of SGM holds to the TULIP. (no doubt there are some amyraldians, but you know what I mean.)

 

[Brother John]

Fender is Greg Harris part of SGM ?

 

[raekwon]

is this a reformed denomination in doctrine and practice, particularly in relation to:


1) the doctrines of grace
2) covenant theology
3) church government

hey scott, hopefully i can help answer some of your questions. In relation to your direct questions, the answers are: 1) yes. 2) yes, depending on who you talk to, you may get varying degrees of affirmation. 3) there's a plurality of elders, church discipline, church to church accountability. If you search the sgm website, there's a booklet published on our polity, which you can download, or buy for something around $5 - and judge there on whether we're in line with #3 or not since i'm unsure the extent to which your question would go.

As a small passing comment regarding the link that rea posted, (sgm survivors (aka sg uncensored). I'm not going to discourage folks from reading it. However, the site itself seems to be a small number of people, who, in my opinion, have a strong distaste for pastoral leadership, and a reformed understanding of the pastor's authority in a church body. There are also many who are seem to be hyper-charismatic and arminian. I also find it discouraging to the usefulness of the site that there are many bitter, and abrasive thoughts on there which would relate more antagonism than a desire for constructive growth in sgm. However, some of their claims may be true, but seem to be based more on an older time in sovereign grace, and not the characterization of how it is now. On the whole, i'd say very little of their accusations are true and the ones that are are so outdated that they don't know what sgm even looks like any more.

Anyhow, as for sgm itself, i love being in the church we're in (covenant fellowship in glen mills, pa). The pastoral leadership here is phenomenally gospel centered, and very intent on bringing our lives into conformity with the bible (in our jobs, marriages, parenting, friendships, knowledge of god, etc.). The pastors care for us deeply here, and are constantly seeking to encourage faith in us, and help us run the race. There are, of course, our faults where we need growth. But the church itself is the most healthy church i've ever been a part of. All the members are constantly encouraged to grow in their knowledge of god and their application of the gospel - through the preaching on sunday, through our community groups, through reading solid books. My wife and i moved to pa from alabama to be a part of this church, and it has definitely seen god's grace in our lives through it. Through the pastoral leadership and gospel community, god is continually working in our everyday lives to conform us to the image of Christ - i love the savior more and more through the work of god in our church and family of churches.

Anyhow, i could go on, but i imagine i'll bag beyond my welcome here. But i figured that since you wanted thoughts from someone in a sgm church that i should share.

~jacob

Fender is Greg Harris part of SGM ?

I'm fairly certain that Greg Harris' church is not affiliated w/ SGM, but the church that his son Josh pastors is (in fact, it could be considered SGM's "flagship").

 

[Scott1]

BlackCalvinist
Puritanboard Junior
Give SGM more time to 'keep reforming'. While they're probably NOT going to ever look like 1646/86/1747, they sure won't look like 1903 Azuza St. or 1995 TAV. Josh Harris only recently ran them through a series on baptism and the Lord's supper (memorialist view, but a little higher.... but they call them sacraments...). Some very good pastors and churches have actually left where they were to join SGM because their emphasis is much more biblical than anything else they were originally a part of.

Regarding this trend toward a more comprehensive reformed theology in Sovereign Grace Ministries-

1) Is it likely that they will soon move toward a confessional basis of unity?

2) If so, any ideas of what that might be or might look like?

It would be good to hear thoughts on this from the outside as well as people in Sovereign Grace Ministries now, if they would care to comment.

 

[Herald]

Brethren, my mother called me last week and asked me about a Vineyard church in Teterboro, New Jersey (10 miles west of Manhattan). I told her to run, not walk. I want her to find a reformed church in the Nutley, NJ area. A business associate of hers recommended the Vineyard church that she attends. Not only did I let my mother know about this cult but I also told her to dismiss anything this business associate tells her about spiritual matters.

 

[KMK]

Surprisingly, there are a number of "reformed" charismatics who believe in a second blessing. Martyn Loyd-Jones and John Piper are two examples.

This actually seems to be the most common position.
Some of the Puritans were called "reformed sealers" because they believed in a second blessing, but were still cessationists. Based on what I have heard, Martyn Loyd-Jones was the first reformed person to be a continuationist and hold to a second blessing.

Could you clarify what you mean by the above?

Well, it seems to me that quite a few of the modern "reformed" Charismatics are just that, they are quite technically Charismatic. Which means that they believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is received after salvation but is not necessarily accompanied by the gift of tongues, but may be accompanied by any spiritual gift.

Hmmm... According to Sam Storms in his contribution to "Are Miraculous Gifts For Today", 'Third Wavers' (like Vineyard) do not necessarily insist that the 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' is subsequent to regeneration.

 

[KMK]

Brethren, my mother called me last week and asked me about a Vineyard church in Teterboro, New Jersey (10 miles west of Manhattan). I told her to run, not walk. I want her to find a reformed church in the Nutley, NJ area. A business associate of hers recommended the Vineyard church that she attends. Not only did I let my mother know about this cult but I also told her to dismiss anything this business associate tells her about spiritual matters.

Are you classifying all Vineyard churches as 'cults' or just the one in Teterboro?

 

[Herald]

KMK, the one in Teterboro. They are into some weird stuff according to my mom: speaking with angels, channeling etc. I told her to flee.

 

[Scott1]

The Vineyard may need to have its own thread- but it is not the topic here.

We are aiming for good information on Sovereign Grace Ministries here to help assess it, both from within and without.

Thanks for your cooperation.

 

[Jared]

Could you clarify what you mean by the above?

Well, it seems to me that quite a few of the modern "reformed" Charismatics are just that, they are quite technically Charismatic. Which means that they believe that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is received after salvation but is not necessarily accompanied by the gift of tongues, but may be accompanied by any spiritual gift.

Hmmm... According to Sam Storms in his contribution to "Are Miraculous Gifts For Today", 'Third Wavers' (like Vineyard) do not necessarily insist that the 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' is subsequent to regeneration.

Yes. And that is my position personally. But it does not seem to be the most common position in the "reformed charismatic" movement.

 

[FenderPriest]

Hey Guys,

Sorry to not have replied sooner – I don’t have internet at home. There are a few places where I’d like to clarify, if I can, on a few issues.

1) SGM is in the process of moving away from Pentecostal and Charismatic language towards continuationist language. We’re moving towards continuationist language because it describes the particular doctrinal issue at hand: the continued activity of the Holy Spirit with certain gifts. While we may have excited worship (i.e. electric guitars, turn tables *gasp!*, etc.), this is easily found in none “charismatic” churches, and is not really the issue at hand. Since the question is about the activity of the Spirit, and our position on it, we’re moving towards more particular language to help in this area of discussion.

2) As far as the “Third Wave” stuff goes, I think it would be fare to say that a good half of SGM pastors are divided on the issue. For example, I had a long conversation with one of the main pastors from my church this past Saturday where we discussed this issue. He himself defined himself as a “modified Third Wave guy” – and was saying how even on our pastoral team, about 15 guys, about half sit on either side of the issue. What’s important, I think, for SGM is that theologically, not chronologically, we are making a distinction between conversion and empowering for the Christian life by the Holy Spirit. That is that there is a theological difference to say that someone was regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and that someone was empowered by the Holy Spirit for the Christian life in whatever capacity.

3) It’s important, also, to note that in order to be ordained as a SGM pastor, one must be a Calvinist. There’s no question about this. I don’t believe there are any 4-Pointers presently serving as pastors. I’m especially convinced of this since Jeff Purswell is strongly suggesting The Death of Death in the Death of Christ by Owen as good reading in the recent interview he did with CJ on books. I don’t know if you’ve ever read it, but lets just say that it’s not ambiguous on where Owen sits on the issue, or where the Bible does for that matter. (It’s personally one of my favorite books I’ve ever read.)

4) It also should be noted that SGM is increasingly decentralizing around Covenant Life. As the movement of churches is growing, the focus on Covenant Life is lessening. For example, we started a Pastor’s College this past year in Mexico for those men presented for pastoral training in Central and South America. We’ve also got a close relationship with Wolfgang Wegert in Hamburg, Germany who’s another one of those strange Reformed Charismatic guys who over sees hundreds of like minded pastors in Germany – basically the CJ for Germany. If there’s not ever adopted, they’ve at least got a major role in SGM. We’ve also just had a man who just graduated from the Pastors College this year who’s from Burma. From my understanding, he has several pastors and churches under his care in Burma, and his intention is to start a Pastors College there at some point. So, needless to say, as time goes on, and SGM becomes more international in its character, the focus on Covenant Life that once existed is slowly fading I think. That’s not to say that it will ever be completely gone, but its lessening.

Anyhow, I hope this helps some.

 

[KMK]

2) As far as the “Third Wave” stuff goes, I think it would be fare to say that a good half of SGM pastors are divided on the issue. For example, I had a long conversation with one of the main pastors from my church this past Saturday where we discussed this issue. He himself defined himself as a “modified Third Wave guy” – and was saying how even on our pastoral team, about 15 guys, about half sit on either side of the issue. What’s important, I think, for SGM is that theologically, not chronologically, we are making a distinction between conversion and empowering for the Christian life by the Holy Spirit. That is that there is a theological difference to say that someone was regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and that someone was empowered by the Holy Spirit for the Christian life in whatever capacity.

What are the two sides represented by SGM? Pentacostal and Third Wave?

 

[Scott1]

Thanks much, Jacob.

Based on the Sovereign Grace Ministries Statement of Beliefs on its web site and the "Affirmations and Denials" (18 Articles) http://www.t4g.org/pdf/affirmations-denials.pdf, is it your understanding the official doctrinal position is:

The Sovereign Grace Ministries doctrinal standard holds that the Holy Spirit at conversion and the Holy Spirit at the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" are two different experiences. It appears, from the standard, however, this belief is not considered an "essential" for the denomination.

Or, is it that they are always two different experiences but that the Baptisim of the Holy Spirit is not always accompanied by certain spiritual gifts?

Also, not as a proposition for debate here, but would you recognize this as a statement of what "Reformed" means? (Again, not debating the underlying issue only if you accept this would be standard "Reformed" doctrine).

In Reformed theology it would probably be an essential to hold that the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit comes at salvation.

 

[FenderPriest]

Thanks much, Jacob.

Based on the Sovereign Grace Ministries Statement of Beliefs on its web site and the "Affirmations and Denials" (18 Articles) http://www.t4g.org/pdf/affirmations-denials.pdf, is it your understanding the official doctrinal position is:

The Sovereign Grace Ministries doctrinal standard holds that the Holy Spirit at conversion and the Holy Spirit at the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" are two different experiences. It appears, from the standard, however, this belief is not considered an "essential" for the denomination.

Or, is it that they are always two different experiences but that the Baptisim of the Holy Spirit is not always accompanied by certain spiritual gifts?

Hey Scott. As I said above, SGM holds that there is a theological distinction between regeneration and empowering by the Holy Spirit - the debate is whether there is a chronological distinction. (KMK - this, hopefully, will answer your question). Where someone falls on this issue, so long as they are a cessationist, is not essential to SGM doctrine, but an issue to work through nonetheless. As my pastor was saying on Saturday morning, there isn't a lot of clarity in Scripture on this, so we're not going to press it beyond the clarity.

As to whether there are two difference experiences, my understanding from my pastors is as follows: The Christian is converted by the Holy Spirit, and as a part of their Christian lives they are to continually seek to be "filled with the Holy Spirit". This filling does meet the individual believer in ways that encouraged them, empowers them, and helps them to enjoy God. It may be accompanied with gifts - what those gifts are is left open. For us, of course, this may be the gift of tongues, or a prophetic word, or it could be a renewed vision of God's glory, a deeper desire for holiness, a gift for evangelism. Since Paul speaks of us receiving the "grace-gifts", the literal of "spiritual gifts" in 1 Cor. 12:1, I believe we leave it open as to how the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is accompanied, since, as we see it, Paul speaks of many things being "spiritual gifts/grace-gifts".

I'm not sure this helps, I feel like I'm not quite getting at your question. Bear with me if I'm not, I am myself just starting to get a good grip on our stance on these things.

Also, not as a proposition for debate here, but would you recognize this as a statement of what "Reformed" means? (Again, not debating the underlying issue only if you accept this would be standard "Reformed" doctrine).

In Reformed theology it would probably be an essential to hold that the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit comes at salvation.

I'm not sure, since we are making a theological distinction between regeneration and empowering. We are holding, of course, that regeneration is a monergistic act of God by his grace alone. I am not sure the Reformers dealt with the issue of regeneration v. empowering, so I'm not sure if we're able to say what the Reformed position is on this issue. Maybe they did, and I'm ignorant of it. If such is the case, my apologies. I will add that for SGM, to say that we are "essentially Reformed" means that when we look at the Westminster Confession, we're going to agree with all but 2 or 3 points.

Anyhow, I hope this helps in some way!
~Jacob

 

[Scott1]

FenderPriest
Puritanboard Freshman

I'm not sure this helps, I feel like I'm not quite getting at your question. Bear with me if I'm not, I am myself just starting to get a good grip on our stance on these things.

That helps a lot.

I think you can see how many of us in the Presbyterian and Reformed part of Christ's Church see the benefit and blessing of having a confession that clearly articulates points like these. One of the hallmarks of Reformed Theology historically, which often has appeal to some sort of confession is...

The unity of the church must be grounded in doctrinal agreement.

That doesn't mean every single thing is agreed- Confessions aren't intended to cover every point of doctrine and may carefully acknowledge Scripture is not clear enough to affirm a point. (cf Westminster Confession of Faith Chapter X 3. regarding salvation of infants dying in infancy). But, they can go a long way toward resolving significant issues such as the nature of the Holy Spirit's work at salvation.

From your comments, it sounds like the leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries, at least right now, is trending more-and-more toward Reformed doctrines.

 

[FenderPriest]

From your comments, it sounds like the leadership of Sovereign Grace Ministries, at least right now, is trending more-and-more toward Reformed doctrines.

I think it's also important to recognize that SGM is a very young group of churches. We've been around, in one form or another, for about 30 years, and have only been in the Reformed camp for about 20 years or so as a group. So there's still a lot for us to work through.

 

[shackleton]

Is this a Reformed denomination in doctrine and practice, particularly in relation to:


1) The doctrines of Grace
2) Covenant theology
3) Church government

I talked with a pastor of a local Sovereign Grace Ministries church when looking for a church and got some info,

1) Calvinistic. Along the lines of Piper or MacArthur. They get a lot of their theology from the Grudem. Share Grudem's philosophy of spiritual gifts and continuation of prophecy.
2) Amil. believers baptism.
3) Elders

When asked he stated, they were "Charismatic Calvinists." He stated that their emphasis was not on reformed theology, they were charismatic first, reformed second.

They might not all fit into the last statement, that may just be that one pastor.

 

[KMK]

Hey Scott. As I said above, SGM holds that there is a theological distinction between regeneration and empowering by the Holy Spirit - the debate is whether there is a chronological distinction. (KMK - this, hopefully, will answer your question). Where someone falls on this issue, so long as they are a cessationist, is not essential to SGM doctrine, but an issue to work through nonetheless. As my pastor was saying on Saturday morning, there isn't a lot of clarity in Scripture on this, so we're not going to press it beyond the clarity.

Do you mean, "So long as they are not a cessationist...?"

Another question: Does SGM encourage people to seek out and pray for supernatural gifts?